Build the Best Defensive Team

[DraymondGold]

What would be the best defensive starting 5 of all time?

A few sub-questions I'm interested in:
1. How would that starting 5 change if they were playing today vs if they were in an earlier era (e.g. 90s or 60s)?
2. How much do people load up on rim protection vs load up on perimeter defense?
3. How much do people value loading up on defensive versatility vs having a defender to guard outlier matchups (e.g. having a big to defend the strongest post-up players like Shaq, while having a guard to defend the quickest first-step players like Jordan)?

[dygaction]

Jordan, Pippen, Kawhi, KG, Duncan
Those players can be even better than their previous version if they need to focus on defense only compared to specialty guys like Bowen and B Wallace.

[DraymondGold]

Jordan, Pippen, Kawhi, KG, Duncan
Those players can be even better than their previous version if they need to focus on defense only compared to specialty guys like Bowen and B Wallace.

Nice team! I like your idea of picking two-way players, with the thought that they'd be even better defensively if they dedicated their motor to just that end of the court.

I see that especially with a guy like Jordan -- to improve a normal team's defensive rating, I'd be tempted to pick a few other guards over him (e.g. Jason Kidd, Sidney Moncrief, maybe Frazier relative to his era)... but those guys had a lot less to worry about on the offensive end than Jordan. If Jordan just focused on the defensive end and had some nice rim protectors to cover for him when he misses on an attempted steal, he definitely has the potential to be the best guard defender.

One question I have for you is: what makes you pick Duncan over some of the other great defensive big men? I absolutely have Duncan in the mix of best big man defenders, but I'm not sure how much separation he gains over Bill Russell or Hakeem especially, but also bigger guys like Wilt or David Robinson. Any thoughts there? Do you think he gains more by focusing on just the defense, do you think he pairs with your team better, or do you just have him as a better defender than Russell/Hakeem?

[onedayattatime]

russell
hakeem
pippen
moncrief
kidd

tempted to put pippen in the backcourt, but i worry about him not being the best against quick guards. considered frazier but i don't know his game well enough compared to kidd. i think this team translates pretty well into different eras due to its good rim protection and the ability of its bigs to cover so much of the court. it looks like the composition sacrifices against someone like shaq, but i think it would still turn out to be very annoying for shaq teams.

[MyUniBroDavis]

What would be the best defensive starting 5 of all time?

A few sub-questions I'm interested in:
1. How would that starting 5 change if they were playing today vs if they were in an earlier era (e.g. 90s or 60s)?
2. How much do people load up on rim protection vs load up on perimeter defense?
3. How much do people value loading up on defensive versatility vs having a defender to guard outlier matchups (e.g. having a big to defend the strongest post-up players like Shaq, while having a guard to defend the quickest first-step players like Jordan)?

If they’re just focused defensively?

Pippen/Kawhi
Bron
Dray
KG
Russell/Hakeem (in case you want abs value)

I don’t think you need an either or, versatility often comes with being able to guard outlier matchups, IQ would make me happier with seeing them vs more movement based offenses and all guys are mobile enough, and rim protection should still be incredible too since 4/5 players here can protect the rim exceptionally well

Wings tend to be the best defenders, and guys like KG/Russell/Hakeem are incredible interior defenders while being switchy. A guy like Dray too for example is a great rim protector in small lineups while being able to guard the guard position quite well at his peak.

ATG defensive wings tend to be good at guarding guards, and guys like a focused peak bron and Dray (drays not a wing but he’s wing sized) have the ability to guard some 5s as well

The individual talent is quite high but the synergy is as well, can switch or be aggressive off coverages or drop, etc etc etc. IQ + communication with Dray and KG would be insane

[henshao]

Eaton, Dream, Bill Russell, MJ, Squid Moncrief if maxing out on defense or Joe Dumars if I think it would be better to have a shooter to round out the offense

[Colbinii]

Eaton, Dream, Bill Russell, MJ, Squid Moncrief if maxing out on defense or Joe Dumars if I think it would be better to have a shooter to round out the offense

Joe Dumars?

Eaton would get played off the court in the modern nba.

[AEnigma]

If I want to be honest about positions, maybe Kidd/TonyAllen/Pippen/Garnett/Russell. If I want to cheat that idea a little, would try to replace Kidd with peak Lebron. And if my only goal is preventing the other team from scoring, I might go with something goofy like Rodman/Draymond/Garnett/Hakeem/Russell.

[kcktiny]

Eaton would get played off the court in the modern nba.

His first 5 seasons in the league, 1982-83 to 1986-87, Eaton was blocking an average of 461 shots per 3000 minutes, and the Utah Jazz played at the 3rd fastest average game pace in the league at 105.9 poss/48min. The only teams to play at a faster game pace were Denver and Kansas City.

No team in the NBA the past 5 seasons (2017-18 to2021-22) played at a game pace higher than 105.3 poss/48min in a single season, and no team averaged more than 101.6 poss/48min over the 5 years.

So a young Mark Eaton was a dominant defender playing on a team that played at a faster game pace than anyone in recent years. What is the logic for him not being a dominant defender now?

[Colbinii]

Eaton would get played off the court in the modern nba.

His first 5 seasons in the league, 1982-83 to 1986-87, Eaton was blocking an average of 461 shots per 3000 minutes, and the Utah Jazz played at the 3rd fastest average game pace in the league at 105.9 poss/48min. The only teams to play at a faster game pace were Denver and Kansas City.

No team in the NBA the past 5 seasons (2017-18 to2021-22) played at a game pace higher than 105.3 poss/48min in a single season, and no team averaged more than 101.6 poss/48min over the 5 years.

So a young Mark Eaton was a dominant defender playing on a team that played at a faster game pace than anyone in recent years. What is the logic for him not being a dominant defender now?

Offenses in the 1980s and 1990s weren't able to isolate and attack slow-plodding centers like they do in today's NBA. Rudy Gobert is more agile and a better defender on the Perimeter than Eaton was and he still is forced into drop coverage schemes.

Mentioning Pace without mentioning how the game is actually played really misses the boat...Teams in the 1960s played at a super high pace as well but the spacing and offensive tactics didn't specifically attack or weaken defensive rim protectors who can't switch like the Modern NBA does.

[kcktiny]

Are you seriously trying to infer a young Mark Eaton was a slow-plodding center??

I suggest you go watch some video of the Utah Jazz from the early to mid-1980s. He was far from slow-footed.

Back then teams were averaging only 2-5 3pt FGAs per game, the past 5 years 33 3pt FGA/g. Yet back then teams averaged 5.2 blocks/100poss versus 4.8 blocks/100poss the past 5 years. Not a whole lot of difference. This idea that lots of 3s means far less blocks is not what the data shows.

Watch on YouTube

Watch at the 1:30 mark Mark Eaton having no problem getting down the floor to block John Lucas. This is the Mark Eaton I remember watching.

[henshao]

Eaton, Dream, Bill Russell, MJ, Squid Moncrief if maxing out on defense or Joe Dumars if I think it would be better to have a shooter to round out the offense

Joe Dumars?

Eaton would get played off the court in the modern nba.

Rather than overlap a bunch of strong defenders, I have chosen to spread their strengths as far as feasible. It is an extremely versatile defensive team, including the two players you underestimate. I am considering facing offenses which may have Shaq, Kareem, Curry, Durant, Lebron, Dirk, Jordan, Paul, Magic, Tmac, or even some of these guys together.

[DraymondGold]

What would be the best defensive starting 5 of all time?

A few sub-questions I'm interested in:
1. How would that starting 5 change if they were playing today vs if they were in an earlier era (e.g. 90s or 60s)?
2. How much do people load up on rim protection vs load up on perimeter defense?
3. How much do people value loading up on defensive versatility vs having a defender to guard outlier matchups (e.g. having a big to defend the strongest post-up players like Shaq, while having a guard to defend the quickest first-step players like Jordan)?

If they’re just focused defensively?

Pippen/Kawhi
Bron
Dray
KG
Russell/Hakeem (in case you want abs value)

I don’t think you need an either or, versatility often comes with being able to guard outlier matchups, IQ would make me happier with seeing them vs more movement based offenses and all guys are mobile enough, and rim protection should still be incredible too since 4/5 players here can protect the rim exceptionally well

Personally, IQ would tend to make me personally happier as well There's nothing quite like seeing a full team move in sync together defensively.

But just to defend the "either or" idea of versatility vs outlier matchups, I'm not quite sure this lineup is perfectly catered to guarding a player like Shaq or Jordan. Is it still great? Absolutely! But if you wanted to build a defensive team specifically designed to stop someone like Shaq or Jordan, you might change out one of the players (e.g you might add someone like Wilt/Thurmond if you were going up against Shaq or you might add someone like Gary Payton if you were going up against Jordan).

To your point though, a team that's versatile like yours and full of high-IQ players might be better equipped to defend a variety of opponents. And given they're still full of all-time defenders (and given team defense is crucial to stopping great players too), they still would do a pretty dang good job against positional-outlier players like Shaq/Jordan.

Wings tend to be the best defenders, and guys like KG/Russell/Hakeem are incredible interior defenders while being switchy. A guy like Dray too for example is a great rim protector in small lineups while being able to guard the guard position quite well at his peak.

Just to clarify this point, are you saying you think wing defenders (e.g. Pippen/Kawhi/LeBron) are better overall defenders than big men like KG/Russell/Hakeem? If so, that's a bit of a hot take. What makes you say that?

ATG defensive wings tend to be good at guarding guards, and guys like a focused peak bron and Dray (drays not a wing but he’s wing sized) have the ability to guard some 5s as well

The individual talent is quite high but the synergy is as well, can switch or be aggressive off coverages or drop, etc etc etc. IQ + communication with Dray and KG would be insane

I also like the IQ of Russell/Bron/Pippen too!

[dygaction]

Jordan, Pippen, Kawhi, KG, Duncan
Those players can be even better than their previous version if they need to focus on defense only compared to specialty guys like Bowen and B Wallace.

Nice team! I like your idea of picking two-way players, with the thought that they'd be even better defensively if they dedicated their motor to just that end of the court.

I see that especially with a guy like Jordan -- to improve a normal team's defensive rating, I'd be tempted to pick a few other guards over him (e.g. Jason Kidd, Sidney Moncrief, maybe Frazier relative to his era)... but those guys had a lot less to worry about on the offensive end than Jordan. If Jordan just focused on the defensive end and had some nice rim protectors to cover for him when he misses on an attempted steal, he definitely has the potential to be the best guard defender.

One question I have for you is: what makes you pick Duncan over some of the other great defensive big men? I absolutely have Duncan in the mix of best big man defenders, but I'm not sure how much separation he gains over Bill Russell or Hakeem especially, but also bigger guys like Wilt or David Robinson. Any thoughts there? Do you think he gains more by focusing on just the defense, do you think he pairs with your team better, or do you just have him as a better defender than Russell/Hakeem?

I see Duncan as the last line of defense and leader of the team. He is not too far removed from modern basketball and one of the smartest team player. To me, he has the best combination of length, strength, mobility, coordination, and instinct. You would not go wrong with other ATG big men either.

[migya]

russell
hakeem
pippen
moncrief
kidd

tempted to put pippen in the backcourt, but i worry about him not being the best against quick guards. considered frazier but i don't know his game well enough compared to kidd. i think this team translates pretty well into different eras due to its good rim protection and the ability of its bigs to cover so much of the court. it looks like the composition sacrifices against someone like shaq, but i think it would still turn out to be very annoying for shaq teams.

Nice. That's an airtight team that can playmake as well. Moncrief was a beast, particularly defensively that is still elite level.

[penbeast0]

russell
hakeem
pippen
moncrief
kidd

tempted to put pippen in the backcourt, but i worry about him not being the best against quick guards. considered frazier but i don't know his game well enough compared to kidd. i think this team translates pretty well into different eras due to its good rim protection and the ability of its bigs to cover so much of the court. it looks like the composition sacrifices against someone like shaq, but i think it would still turn out to be very annoying for shaq teams.

Kidd probably the best defensive PG of all time when defensive rebounding also taken into account but also had trouble against smaller quicker guards; Moncrief is covering the jets?

[penbeast0]

Are we building for one game or one series? If so, loading up on the Michael Jordan types makes sense; his physical gifts and intensity make him arguably the best two guard ever at his peak. Or, are we building for a year or multi-year period? If so, you want someone who maintains focus even on a Tuesday night in Minnesota and that's pretty rare. Then you want the mind set of a Moncrief (who was also the primary scorer, or at least #2 through his prime) or Frazier (also the primary or secondary scorer on his teams) who considered defense their calling card despite both being All-NBA level offensive players.

The answer to this question might create significantly different teams.

[MyUniBroDavis]

What would be the best defensive starting 5 of all time?

A few sub-questions I'm interested in:
1. How would that starting 5 change if they were playing today vs if they were in an earlier era (e.g. 90s or 60s)?
2. How much do people load up on rim protection vs load up on perimeter defense?
3. How much do people value loading up on defensive versatility vs having a defender to guard outlier matchups (e.g. having a big to defend the strongest post-up players like Shaq, while having a guard to defend the quickest first-step players like Jordan)?

If they’re just focused defensively?

Pippen/Kawhi
Bron
Dray
KG
Russell/Hakeem (in case you want abs value)

I don’t think you need an either or, versatility often comes with being able to guard outlier matchups, IQ would make me happier with seeing them vs more movement based offenses and all guys are mobile enough, and rim protection should still be incredible too since 4/5 players here can protect the rim exceptionally well

Personally, IQ would tend to make me personally happier as well There's nothing quite like seeing a full team move in sync together defensively.

But just to defend the "either or" idea of versatility vs outlier matchups, I'm not quite sure this lineup is perfectly catered to guarding a player like Shaq or Jordan. Is it still great? Absolutely! But if you wanted to build a defensive team specifically designed to stop someone like Shaq or Jordan, you might change out one of the players (e.g you might add someone like Wilt/Thurmond if you were going up against Shaq or you might add someone like Gary Payton if you were going up against Jordan).

To your point though, a team that's versatile like yours and full of high-IQ players might be better equipped to defend a variety of opponents. And given they're still full of all-time defenders (and given team defense is crucial to stopping great players too), they still would do a pretty dang good job against positional-outlier players like Shaq/Jordan.

Wings tend to be the best defenders, and guys like KG/Russell/Hakeem are incredible interior defenders while being switchy. A guy like Dray too for example is a great rim protector in small lineups while being able to guard the guard position quite well at his peak.

Just to clarify this point, are you saying you think wing defenders (e.g. Pippen/Kawhi/LeBron) are better overall defenders than big men like KG/Russell/Hakeem? If so, that's a bit of a hot take. What makes you say that?

ATG defensive wings tend to be good at guarding guards, and guys like a focused peak bron and Dray (drays not a wing but he’s wing sized) have the ability to guard some 5s as well

The individual talent is quite high but the synergy is as well, can switch or be aggressive off coverages or drop, etc etc etc. IQ + communication with Dray and KG would be insane

I also like the IQ of Russell/Bron/Pippen too!

Oh, I meant compared to guard defenders at being able to guard multiple positions, bigs are far better defenders

I don’t mind Jordan in the sense that I don’t think this team would struggle more than other teams, Kawhi is a fantastic perimeter defender, Dray and Lebron at their best would both do a good job as well, KG was super mobile and able to guard wings great as well.

I agree Shaq would be annoying but whether it’s Russell or Hakeem both are great post defenders, I wouldn’t say KG and Hakeem/Russell is a frontcourt that would be particularly weak even if Shaq would still be shaq, if it’s versatile enough to go against everyone else better I think I can live with that, there are only so many 350 pound forces lol

I think this team is less equipped for Shaq than Jordan, but I think guarding wings is more of a strength with how switchy this team is and with that interior defense

[DraymondGold]

russell
hakeem
pippen
moncrief
kidd

tempted to put pippen in the backcourt, but i worry about him not being the best against quick guards. considered frazier but i don't know his game well enough compared to kidd. i think this team translates pretty well into different eras due to its good rim protection and the ability of its bigs to cover so much of the court. it looks like the composition sacrifices against someone like shaq, but i think it would still turn out to be very annoying for shaq teams.

Kidd probably the best defensive PG of all time when defensive rebounding also taken into account but also had trouble against smaller quicker guards; Moncrief is covering the jets?

How well do y'all think Moncrief would do at covering "the jets" (great name for those players! ).

Gary Payton probably has the best defensive reputation against those fastest players, at least among casual fans. How would Moncrief's man defense against those type of players fare compared to Gary Payton?

[penbeast0]

I'd have Moncrief over Payton for defense on the super quick types, mainly due to length and quicker hands/feet. I think Payton may actually be better the other way, at handling strong guards who like to body you. Payton was surprisingly strong for his size. especially in his legs.