RealGM

Where would 1993 Jordan rank in todays NBA?

Definitely among the very best players (with Curry, Jokic and Giannis being the other candidates). I think I'd trust him more than the rest in the playoffs, so likely number 1.

I wouldn’t take any current players over 93 MJ, and don’t think anyone outside of Jokic, Curry or Giannis even comes that close.

#1 easily

#1. MJ











Rest of the league combined.

70sFan wrote:Definitely among the very best players (with Curry, Jokic and Giannis being the other candidates). I think I'd trust him more than the rest in the playoffs, so likely number 1.

Giannis probably has the best argument(at least relative to era). More questions in the playoffs but is probably a better rs "floor-raiser" going off 2020. I guess the question is whether 2021/2022 addresses the playoff concerns well enough and how much you want to project 2020 carrying capability onto 2021/2022. Maybe 2023 Giannis well blend both together anyway.

If you don't care about era-relativity current curry vs mj might get interesting. Otherwise, i don't think 2023 curry has a case in the rs or po.

I can't see a case for jokic tho. Not being able to protect the paint is a massive knock for a big-man.

To be clear: am talking about peak mj in general. I don't have a strong opinion in how 93 compares to the other years.

Jordan has an interesting level of hype around him, as some players do.

If he was statistically identical today to his 93 season, he would actually be at -1.1% TS relative to league average.

Now, league context has changed. League-average pace in 93 was 96.8 compared to today's 99.4, the whistle is different and more generous than it was in his own time and he was an extraordinary athlete still in that phase of his career. He was a +2.8% rTS guy in 1993, which was a relative down year for him. He made a specific choice in his own career to de-emphasize the 3, so I don't know how he would react in today's game, but if he consistently tried, he'd have been a competent enough 3pt shooter. Probably Lebron James level, so, uninspiring but good enough to be a threat and we know from even MJ's own career that he could get hot and cause problems.

So there's a very real reason to expect that he's still be a +2, +3 rTS type guy who scored a ton and had a nice, versatile game. There's a chance he'd be even more punishing than that, though it depends on FTr and 3P% and little details of how things go. I struggle to believe he'd instantly be the best player in the game just "because MJ," even though I"m a huge fan. I'm comfortable with top 3, though.

Where is the crowd of help defenders in the paint today? We have a legal zone now but the quality of the 3 point shooting today more than offsets the zone in taking away help defenders. You have to defend the screen setters now to stop the guys using the screens from getting open 3s.

Jordan would dominate in the current game more than he dominated in his own time where he had to deal with multiple help defenders. Jordan was a good but not great passer but he woukd find the open 3 point shooters if help defenders left 3 point shooters to help defend Jordan.

Hard to know, the game is so different that it would affect or help so many different areas of jordan game

Lots of thinghs to consider in both offense and defense and how ideally jordan play style and skillset works in todays league compared to -today's league stars-

Somethinth often brought up for jordan is that he will be more efficient with today's spacing but so is the field more efficient as a whole so we would need to guess if the efficiency of jordan today -relative to other league star scorers- would be higher or lower now

His off ball 2 point game is still very valuable but it wont be as efficient relatively speaking as today off ball 3 point players. His hybrid on-ball/off-ball midrange based game would lose a bit of luster in todays "meta"

Defense would also come down to how a great guard defender with a tendency to over commit would translate to moder pick and roll game. I think he would be a terror 1 on 1 on guards, but would be much less in raw 1 vs 1 situations like those and instead needing to make quick reads in pick and roll situations

I can see an argument for jordan being a bit less effectivr today relative to the field

#1. I don't think it'd be a stretch for him to be around a 36-37% 3PT shooter had he come up in this era. His athletic/physical prowess, fundamentals, post-work would look incredibly unique for a 6'6" guard. With his maniacal competitive drive he'd be the league's top dog.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Where is the crowd of help defenders in the paint today? We have a legal zone now but the quality of the 3 point shooting today more than offsets the zone in taking away help defenders. You have to defend the screen setters now to stop the guys using the screens from getting open 3s.

Jordan would dominate in the current game more than he dominated in his own time where he had to deal with multiple help defenders. Jordan was a good but not great passer but he woukd find the open 3 point shooters if help defenders left 3 point shooters to help defend Jordan.

Yeah so uh...this isn't how era-translation works. I'm going to quote myself here to save time:

box-production going up does not mean a player has become more valuable. Scoring 30 ppg where the field is scoring 20 pgg isn't necessarily worse than scoring 40 ppg in a where the field scores 30 ppg. Crude example but it should illustrate the point. If you are going to argue Jordan gets better thanks to spacing, it can't just be a matter of numbers. You need to argue that he will be better relative to his peers in 2022 than 1991. According to ben, jordan was a limited pure passer even relative to kobe(found half as many good passes per 100 iirc), so i'm not sure having him helio vs more sophisticated and talented defenses produces better results(as far as winning goes)

More spacing does not automatically determine that a player will get more valuable offensively. Jordan's a relatively undersized interior threat and has limitations as a passer. What makes you think he gets more valuable in an era where the field has gotten much better at his unique strengths (shooting/off-ball movement)? Scarcity dictates value. This also isn't helped by Jordan's own self-proclaimed reluctancy to shoot threes in the first place, weakening one of his strengths.

I think Doc and BLOCKED make decent cases for Jordan getting worse, even without "era-strength" as a consideration:

1. (mj's shooting) is less valiuable in a league where shooting has skyrocketed
2. (mj off-ball) less valuable in a league where off-ball movement has skyrocketed


obviously less skilled at passing(completes half as many good passers per 100 per ben)than kobe and illegal d isn't gonna save him from the limitations of being a smol boi in the interior

Doctor MJ wrote:
however, I do still believe that the rise of the 3 means that the value of 2-point scorers goes down. Not hard for me to see him leading a championship team today, but I don't expect he'd stand out the same way today he did back then.

Forced to zero in on the best of Jordan, to me that's when the Big Chief Triangle acid trip gets in full swing before wear and tear start to take hold, so for me that's possibly '89-90, '90-91 or '91-92. Going with the middle year which is also the big breakthrough year.
.

And if we are going to project a player into the modern-league, the general talent-level of the competition is probably relevant:

ty 4191 wrote:

1993Playoffs wrote:Where would he rank?

There are 120 international players from 40 different countries spread across 6 continents today.





The league also hasn't expanded in almost 20 years. It added 6 (truly awful) teams from 1988-1989 through 1995-1996, expanding to 29 teams by 1997, the year in question.

Jordan would and could not dominate like he did in his actual career, today. The league is SO much deeper, broader, and more sophisticated today.

I think we need to get a bit deeper into this than "more ppg = better"

OhayoKD wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Where is the crowd of help defenders in the paint today? We have a legal zone now but the quality of the 3 point shooting today more than offsets the zone in taking away help defenders. You have to defend the screen setters now to stop the guys using the screens from getting open 3s.

Jordan would dominate in the current game more than he dominated in his own time where he had to deal with multiple help defenders. Jordan was a good but not great passer but he woukd find the open 3 point shooters if help defenders left 3 point shooters to help defend Jordan.

Yeah so uh...this isn't how era-translation works. I'm going to quote myself here to save time:

[quote]box-production going up does not mean a player has become more valuable. Scoring 30 ppg where the field is scoring 20 pgg isn't necessarily worse than scoring 40 ppg in a where the field scores 30 ppg. Crude example but it should illustrate the point. If you are going to argue Jordan gets better thanks to spacing, it can't just be a matter of numbers. You need to argue that he will be better relative to his peers in 2022 than 1991. According to ben, jordan was a limited pure passer even relative to kobe(found half as many good passes per 100 iirc), so i'm not sure having him helio vs more sophisticated and talented defenses produces better results(as far as winning goes)

More spacing does not automatically determine that a player will get more valuable offensively. Jordan's a relatively undersized interior threat and has limitations as a passer. What makes you think he gets more valuable in an era where the field has gotten much better at his unique strengths (shooting/off-ball movement)? Scarcity dictates value. This also isn't helped by Jordan's own self-proclaimed reluctancy to shoot threes in the first place, weakening one of his strengths.

I think Doc and BLOCKED make decent cases for Jordan getting worse, even without "era-strength" as a consideration:

1. (mj's shooting) is less valiuable in a league where shooting has skyrocketed
2. (mj off-ball) less valuable in a league where off-ball movement has skyrocketed


obviously less skilled at passing(completes half as many good passers per 100 per ben)than kobe and illegal d isn't gonna save him from the limitations of being a smol boi in the interior

Doctor MJ wrote:
however, I do still believe that the rise of the 3 means that the value of 2-point scorers goes down. Not hard for me to see him leading a championship team today, but I don't expect he'd stand out the same way today he did back then.

Forced to zero in on the best of Jordan, to me that's when the Big Chief Triangle acid trip gets in full swing before wear and tear start to take hold, so for me that's possibly '89-90, '90-91 or '91-92. Going with the middle year which is also the big breakthrough year.
.

And if we are going to project a player into the modern-league, the general talent-level of the competition is probably relevant:

ty 4191 wrote:

1993Playoffs wrote:Where would he rank?

There are 120 international players from 40 different countries spread across 6 continents today.





The league also hasn't expanded in almost 20 years. It added 6 (truly awful) teams from 1988-1989 through 1995-1996, expanding to 29 teams by 1997, the year in question.

Jordan would and could not dominate like he did in his actual career, today. The league is SO much deeper, broader, and more sophisticated today.

I think we need to get a bit deeper into this than "more ppg = better"

[/quote]

I think the other side of this equation often not considered is that the league as a whole is more efficient and taking more 3's. Jordan could actually improve his efficiency a decent amount and still be less efficient relative to the rest of the league stars than his own era

Emphasis on the bolded parts

Does he grow up in today's era, or is it like instant transmission from 93 to today?

'93 MJ would be the best player today or at least a favourite for the MVP in the league.

The motivation he may have lacked in '93 after b2b chips would disappear since he would be trying to one up today's league.

As a general rule, great perimeter players in the past would find it easier today.

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Does he grow up in today's era, or is it like instant transmission from 93 to today?

I mean the former is basically unanswerable, so I'd prefer sticking to the latter.

OhayoKD wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Where is the crowd of help defenders in the paint today? We have a legal zone now but the quality of the 3 point shooting today more than offsets the zone in taking away help defenders. You have to defend the screen setters now to stop the guys using the screens from getting open 3s.

Jordan would dominate in the current game more than he dominated in his own time where he had to deal with multiple help defenders. Jordan was a good but not great passer but he woukd find the open 3 point shooters if help defenders left 3 point shooters to help defend Jordan.

Yeah so uh...this isn't how era-translation works. I'm going to quote myself here to save time:

box-production going up does not mean a player has become more valuable. Scoring 30 ppg where the field is scoring 20 pgg isn't necessarily worse than scoring 40 ppg in a where the field scores 30 ppg. Crude example but it should illustrate the point. If you are going to argue Jordan gets better thanks to spacing, it can't just be a matter of numbers. You need to argue that he will be better relative to his peers in 2022 than 1991. According to ben, jordan was a limited pure passer even relative to kobe(found half as many good passes per 100 iirc), so i'm not sure having him helio vs more sophisticated and talented defenses produces better results(as far as winning goes)

More spacing does not automatically determine that a player will get more valuable offensively. Jordan's a relatively undersized interior threat and has limitations as a passer. What makes you think he gets more valuable in an era where the field has gotten much better at his unique strengths (shooting/off-ball movement)? Scarcity dictates value. This also isn't helped by Jordan's own self-proclaimed reluctancy to shoot threes in the first place, weakening one of his strengths.

I think Doc and BLOCKED make decent cases for Jordan getting worse, even without "era-strength" as a consideration:

1. (mj's shooting) is less valiuable in a league where shooting has skyrocketed
2. (mj off-ball) less valuable in a league where off-ball movement has skyrocketed


obviously less skilled at passing(completes half as many good passers per 100 per ben)than kobe and illegal d isn't gonna save him from the limitations of being a smol boi in the interior

Doctor MJ wrote:
however, I do still believe that the rise of the 3 means that the value of 2-point scorers goes down. Not hard for me to see him leading a championship team today, but I don't expect he'd stand out the same way today he did back then.

Forced to zero in on the best of Jordan, to me that's when the Big Chief Triangle acid trip gets in full swing before wear and tear start to take hold, so for me that's possibly '89-90, '90-91 or '91-92. Going with the middle year which is also the big breakthrough year.
.

And if we are going to project a player into the modern-league, the general talent-level of the competition is probably relevant:

ty 4191 wrote:

1993Playoffs wrote:Where would he rank?

There are 120 international players from 40 different countries spread across 6 continents today.





The league also hasn't expanded in almost 20 years. It added 6 (truly awful) teams from 1988-1989 through 1995-1996, expanding to 29 teams by 1997, the year in question.

Jordan would and could not dominate like he did in his actual career, today. The league is SO much deeper, broader, and more sophisticated today.

I think we need to get a bit deeper into this than "more ppg = better"

Jordan does not need to shoot 3s. He just needs to attack the rim in one on one situations.
Jordan attacking the rim one on one now ir one on 1 1/2 or one on 2 is going to produce more effeicient scoring than Jordan attacing the rim one on 2 1/2 in his own era.

The Europeans playing today are mostly worse defenders then the Americans playing in Jordan's era. The Europeans are in the NBA for their offensive skills not their defense. A few Europeans are in the NBA for size and rebounding not their defense.

Jordan in the current league will have a significantly higher field goal percentage. Jordan's shooting volume would probably fall some because in the current league he has better scorers to pass to. Put Jordan and Pippen out there with Longly, Harper and Rodman and who is Jordan supposed pass to. But Rodman can offensive rebound Jordan's missed shots. To get the space from 3 point shooting you must pass the ball to the 3 point shooters.

The league is not that much more sophisticated today it just is adapted to 3 point shooting. The dance of how to get away with playing an uncalled zone in the 1990s and 1980s was sophisticated. There was a fine line between a zonishish man to man with sagging and a zone so blatant that an illegal defense would be called.

Kids, they think Basketball was not invented yet in 1996 and they think their parents did not know how to have sex. No, you exagerate the progress made in NBA between 1996 and now. The only revolution between 1996 and now in basketball has been the quality of 3 point shooting.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:The Europeans playing today are mostly worse defenders then the Americans playing in Jordan's era. The Europeans are in the NBA for their offensive skills not their defense. A few Europeans are in the NBA for size and rebounding not their defense.

Wow, what an absurd generalization...

70sFan wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:The Europeans playing today are mostly worse defenders then the Americans playing in Jordan's era. The Europeans are in the NBA for their offensive skills not their defense. A few Europeans are in the NBA for size and rebounding not their defense.

Wow, what an absurd generalization...

No, my genralization is true.

Suppose A talened European pushes Sydney Green deeper onto the bench/ 9th man instead of 7th man; does the defense get better or worse? What European player other than Kirilenko was a better defender than Sydney Green?

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:

70sFan wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:The Europeans playing today are mostly worse defenders then the Americans playing in Jordan's era. The Europeans are in the NBA for their offensive skills not their defense. A few Europeans are in the NBA for size and rebounding not their defense.

Wow, what an absurd generalization...

No, my genralization is true.

Suppose A talened European pushes Sydney Green deeper onto the bench/ 9th man instead of 7th man; does the defense get better or worse? What European player other than Kirilenko was a better defender than Sydney Green?

I don't know, maybe the last 3 time DPOY? Are you aware that among last 6 DPOYs, 3 of them are European?

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:

70sFan wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:The Europeans playing today are mostly worse defenders then the Americans playing in Jordan's era. The Europeans are in the NBA for their offensive skills not their defense. A few Europeans are in the NBA for size and rebounding not their defense.

Wow, what an absurd generalization...

No, my genralization is true.

Suppose A talened European pushes Sydney Green deeper onto the bench/ 9th man instead of 7th man; does the defense get better or worse? What European player other than Kirilenko was a better defender than Sydney Green?

Not even gonna get into Giannis, Marc or Gobert cause that feels like cheating, or even Ricky Rubio or Nic Batum or Pau Gasol or etc etc, a washed Jorge Garbajosa is a better defender than [guy on the background in Jordan highlights] (mostly guessing here)