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Where would ‘95 Robinson rank in todays league?

I always compare peak Robinson to current Jokic and this is how I feel about him right now. So a lock top 5, probably top 3 player.

I think 4th behind Jokic, Giannis and Curry. Not really a fan of his game, but can’t see him any lower. Guys like Tatum and Luka are putting up huge numbers, but I don’t see reason to believe their impact was as big as his. Embiid staying healthy enough to even consider him seriously, seems hopeless these days.

70sFan wrote:I always compare peak Robinson to current Jokic and this is how I feel about him right now. So a lock top 5, probably top 3 player.

Isn't giannis a better comparison?

OhayoKD wrote:

70sFan wrote:I always compare peak Robinson to current Jokic and this is how I feel about him right now. So a lock top 5, probably top 3 player.

Isn't giannis a better comparison?

I think positionally and Robinson had similar concerns on offense that I have with Jokic on defense.

A hyper athletic big man who was a shutdown defender, had a strong post and midrange game.

Top 5 easily

70sFan wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

70sFan wrote:I always compare peak Robinson to current Jokic and this is how I feel about him right now. So a lock top 5, probably top 3 player.

Isn't giannis a better comparison?

I think positionally and Robinson had similar concerns on offense that I have with Jokic on defense.

I think fundamentally/tactically that's a great point, but I like the Giannis (primarily younger iterations) shout with Robinson. Ben does a great job mentioning it in this video (around 12:30), where they will still have a pretty impactful base-line due to defense but face some offensive limitations.

He would be Embiid on steroids. So a top 5 player easily.

I think positionally and Robinson had similar concerns on offense

What might those concerns be?

kcktiny wrote:

I think positionally and Robinson had similar concerns on offense

What might those concerns be?

Limited self-creation ability and overeliance on physical advantages.

70sFan wrote:

kcktiny wrote:

I think positionally and Robinson had similar concerns on offense

What might those concerns be?

Limited self-creation ability and overeliance on physical advantages.

Looks great and no problems, against great defense too.

migya wrote:

70sFan wrote:

kcktiny wrote:
What might those concerns be?

Limited self-creation ability and overeliance on physical advantages.

Watch on YouTube

Looks great and no problems, against great defense too.

Yeah, we should ignore huge sample size of Robinson underachieving on the playoffs and struggling in isolation against set defenses, then focus on one highlight video from one game.

That's not how analytical approach works.

Woodsanity wrote:He would be Embiid on steroids. So a top 5 player easily.

I don't see how this comparison is apt. Embiid is far more skilled on-ball than Robinson was. Embiid has a legitimate triple-threat attack on-ball and his diversified offensive skill-set is more resilient than Robinson's.

Robinson may certainly be a better player overall given the defensive gap and Robinson's off-ball and finishing ability, but I don't see Robinson being Embiid but on steroids.

Colbinii wrote:

Woodsanity wrote:He would be Embiid on steroids. So a top 5 player easily.

I don't see how this comparison is apt. Embiid is far more skilled on-ball than Robinson was. Embiid has a legitimate triple-threat attack on-ball and his diversified offensive skill-set is more resilient than Robinson's.

Robinson may certainly be a better player overall given the defensive gap and Robinson's off-ball and finishing ability, but I don't see Robinson being Embiid but on steroids.

I think Robinson would be EASILY a better player than Embiid, while being MUCH inferior on-ball scorer.

Yeah, we should ignore huge sample size of Robinson underachieving on the playoffs and struggling in isolation against set defenses, then focus on one highlight video from one game. That's not how analytical approach works.

You are correct. Let's look at a larger sample size of data.

From 1989-90 to 1995-96, before his injury, and 7 years of data, so a large sample size of data, Robinson scored more points (14260) in the regular season that did any other C - and Olajuwon and Ewing played all 7 of those seasons. He also grabbed far more offensive rebounds (1922) than did any other C.

And he did this against imho better Cs than those that play today, including Olajuwon, Ewing, Mutombo (5 of those seasons), Shaq (4), Brad Daugherty (5), and Mourning (4).

Limited self-creation ability

Those same 7 seasons Robinson had 5536 FTAs. No other C had even 4000. He made over 4000 FTs. No other C made even 3000. What is more "self creation" than drawing fouls and getting to the FT line? Or are you going to ascribe his ability to draw fouls to his teammates?

And over 7 full seasons he was far better than any other C at doing this.

In 1993-94 he lead the league in scoring at 29.8 pts/g, after having scored just 23-24 pts/g the previous 2 seasons. Yet the Spurs that year ranked just 21st in the league in ast/g (out of 27 teams). He also actually lead the team in assists with 381. Their PG that year was Vinny del Negro, who passed for all of 320 assists that whole season. So it's not like he got a lot of easy baskets that season because of a great passing PG. So on the contrary, I'd say his ability of self-creation was incredibly good.

So this idea that he had "limited self-creation ability" is farcical.

As for the playoffs, those 7 seasons he played in 53 playoff games, scored 24 pts/g and grabbed 12 reb/g. The only other Cs with similar stats were Olajuwon, Shaq, and Ewing.

As for this statement:

overeliance on physical advantages

How is this a concern? Isn't this what you want from a player? To take advantage of every aspect of their game as possible?

Many wonder what Shaq might have done had he been in shape all of his career. But they don't with Robinson (just what he would have done had he not gotten injured).

Robinson's first 8 full seasons in the league he was all-NBA 1st team 4 times, 2nd team twice. But he was also all-defensive team each season, 4 times all-D 1st team. He was DPOY once. Jokic has never been named to an all-D team and has never received even a single vote for DPOY.

The gap between Robinson and Jokic on defense is far far greater than any perceived gap on offense between the two.

I also wonder how good Jokic could have been had he had the physique of David Robinson, had he applied himself to being in better shape. Maybe he would have been a great defender. But he clearly isn't now, like Robinson was.

kcktiny wrote:You are correct. Let's look at a larger sample size of data.

From 1989-90 to 1995-96, before his injury, and 7 years of data, so a large sample size of data, Robinson scored more points (14260) in the regular season that did any other C - and Olajuwon and Ewing played all 7 of those seasons. He also grabbed far more offensive rebounds (1922) than did any other C.

And he did this against imho better Cs than those that play today, including Olajuwon, Ewing, Mutombo (5 of those seasons), Shaq (4), Brad Daugherty (5), and Mourning (4).

Why do you show me his RS production against the whole league? Robinson played 557 RS games in 1990-96 period, he played only 85 games against Olajuwon/Ewing/Mutombo/Shaq/Daugherty/Mourning. That's around 15% of total games played...

If you actually are interested in Robinson numbers against good defensive teams (-2 rDRtg or better), I actually have these numbers:

1992-96 Robinson

RS average: 25.9 ppg on 51.9 FG% and 58.6 TS% (+5.0 rTS%)

vs bad defenses: 27.6 ppg on 55.6 FG% and 61.5 TS% (+7.8 rTS%)
vs good defenses: 25.1 ppg on 49.4 FG% and 56.5 TS% (+3.0 rTS%)

vs good defenses in PS: 19.6 ppg on 41.8 FG% and 47.9 TS% (-5.3 rTS%)

He regressed in the RS, but the drop off was expected. Once teams started to gameplan against him, he looked like a different player. Robinson never had any great scoring series against good defensive team.

Those same 7 seasons Robinson had 5536 FTAs. No other C had even 4000. He made over 4000 FTs. No other C made even 3000. What is more "self creation" than drawing fouls and getting to the FT line? Or are you going to ascribe his ability to draw fouls to his teammates?

You can draw fouls on attempts created by his teammates, so it says nothing about his creation ability.

In 1993-94 he lead the league in scoring at 29.8 pts/g, after having scored just 23-24 pts/g the previous 2 seasons. Yet the Spurs that year ranked just 21st in the league in ast/g (out of 27 teams). He also actually lead the team in assists with 381. Their PG that year was Vinny del Negro, who passed for all of 320 assists that whole season. So it's not like he got a lot of easy baskets that season because of a great passing PG. So on the contrary, I'd say his ability of self-creation was incredibly goodn.

Yeah, then he played the first round against a team that could guard him straight and instead looking like Shaquille O'Neal, he looked like Jermaine O'Neal...

As for the playoffs, those 7 seasons he played in 53 playoff games, scored 24 pts/g and grabbed 12 reb/g. The only other Cs with similar stats were Olajuwon, Shaq, and Ewing.

Yeah, I didn't say he sucked. I said he'd be top 3 player in the league right now.

Do you know that in 1993-96 period (Robinson peak years), he regressed from 26.4 ppg on 58.4 TS% to 23.8 ppg on 53.6 TS%?

How is this a concern? Isn't this what you want from a player? To take advantage of every aspect of their game as possible?

It's not concern if opponents can't adjust to that and slow you down. Teams couldn't slow down Shaq because of his physical advantages. That's not the case with Robinson, who struggled basically against any capable playoff team that could focus on neutralizing these advantages he usually had in RS.

If you can't dominate your opponents and you have no counters, then you are in troubles,

Robinson's first 8 full seasons in the league he was all-NBA 1st team 4 times, 2nd team twice. But he was also all-defensive team each season, 4 times all-D 1st team. He was DPOY once. Jokic has never been named to an all-D team and has never received even a single vote for DPOY.

I didn't question that Robinson is an all-time great player.

The gap between Robinson and Jokic on defense is far far greater than any perceived gap on offense between the two.

I didn't mention this either, although offensive gap is also very large.

I also wonder how good Jokic could have been had he had the physique of David Robinson, had he applied himself to being in better shape. Maybe he would have been a great defender. But he clearly isn't now, like Robinson was.

It doesn't work that way. Jokic could run marathons every single day and he'd never look like Robinson. David was a physical freak, Jokic would never reach that level of physical shape.

Why do you show me his RS production against the whole league? Robinson played 557 RS games in 1990-96 period, he played only 85 games against Olajuwon/Ewing/Mutombo/Shaq/Daugherty/Mourning.

You wrote this:

I always compare peak Robinson to current Jokic

And imho Robinson played against a much higher caliber of Cs overall than Jokic has. Who has Jokic played against? Gobert, Embiid, and then who? KAT, Vucevic, Steven Adams, Drummond, Capela, Myles Turner?

And Robinson is an all-time great defensive C against those other HOF Cs, and those 7 seasons (8990-9596) the Spurs allowed the 2nd lowest 2pt FG% at 46.7%.

Meanwhile the past 5 seasons Denver has allowed the league's 7th highest 2pt FG% at 53.5%.

RS average: 25.9 ppg on 51.9 FG% and 58.6 TS% (+5.0 rTS%)

vs bad defenses: 27.6 ppg on 55.6 FG% and 61.5 TS% (+7.8 rTS%)
vs good defenses: 25.1 ppg on 49.4 FG% and 56.5 TS% (+3.0 rTS%)

vs good defenses in PS: 19.6 ppg on 41.8 FG% and 47.9 TS% (-5.3 rTS%)

Wait a minute. Up above you chastise someone for showing the highlights of 1 game and write:

Yeah, we should ignore huge sample size of Robinson underachieving on the playoffs and struggling in isolation against set defenses, then focus on one highlight video from one game.

As if you are the embodiment of analytics:

That's not how analytical approach works.

But then pick some playoff games against good defenses as if that defines a player's career, yet over those 7 years he played in just 53 total playoff games (not sure which you chose as good defenses) compared to 557 regular season games. He played in over 10 times as many games in the regular season than in the playoffs.

So tell us again how the analytical approach works.

You can draw fouls on attempts created by his teammates, so it says nothing about his creation ability.

What kind of inane statement is this? He was far better than any C in the league at creating points off of fouls drawn over the 7 year period of 8990-9596, but you refuse to acknowledge that skill.

You then make statements like this:

Yeah, then he played the first round against a team that could guard him straight and instead looking like Shaquille O'Neal, he looked like Jermaine O'Neal...

and this:

Yeah, then he played the first round against a team that could guard him straight and instead looking like Shaquille O'Neal, he looked like Jermaine O'Neal...

As if these very small sample sizes are of significance, but you know what:

That's not how analytical approach works.

Yet despite that nit-picking, then say:

I didn't question that Robinson is an all-time great player.

And where is the proof of this statement?:

I didn't mention this either, although offensive gap is also very large.

In Robinson's favor or Jokic's favor?

It doesn't work that way. Jokic could run marathons every single day and he'd never look like Robinson. David was a physical freak, Jokic would never reach that level of physical shape.

So now you are some sort of expert on the conditioning of professional NBA athletes?

Is calling David Robinson a physical freak some sort of excuse as to why he is an all-time great player? Did it ever occur to you that he was that way because he worked at it continuously throughout his career, was a key reason why he was so dominant early in his career, and that also played a huge role in him winning titles at the ages of 33 and 37.

There's nothing stopping Jokic from getting into great shape in the offseason, he would just have to put the effort into it. Saying he never could is just a huge copout, nothing more than an excuse for his current not top tier level of defensive effort.

I'm not going to discuss with someone who argues in bad faith.

Robinson would be a Top 5 player.

He'd be very good. Concerns about his offensive ability as a focal scorer, but he'd be a dynamite #2, a major defensive force and even if he was positioned as the #1 (non-ideal), he'd still do well until the playoffs.

D-Rob was a phenomenal athlete. He didn't have the range to be successful against higher-end set defenses in the absence of a really dominant post game. He could abuse smaller defenders well enough and he certainly hustled off-ball, in transition, etc. Like, top 5 seems an easy read for him, just not higher than that, IMHO.