Top 50 peaks

[ceoofkobefans]

Hello I am back and bored again so here’s another top 50 list at 6 am. This time it’s goat peaks

1. 1991 Michael Jordan
2. 2013 LeBron James
3. 2000 Shaquille O’Neal

4. 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon
6. 2003 Tim Duncan
7. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain

8. 1986 Larry Bird
9. 2016 Steph Curry
10. 2008 Kobe Bryant
11. 1987 Magic Johnson
12. 1962 Bill Russell
13. 2004 Kevin Garnett

14. 2009 Dwyane Wade
15. 1995 David Robinson
16. 2017 Kevin Durant
17. 2022 Giannis Antetokoumnpo

18. 1977 Bill Walton
19. 2015 Chris Paul
20. 1966 Jerry West
21. 1965 Oscar Robertson
22. 2007 Steve Nash
23. 2017 Kawhi Leonard
24. 2022 Nikola Jokic

25. 2011 Dirk Nowitzki
26. 2020 James Harden
27. 1976 Julius Erving
28. 2003 Tracy McGrady
29. 2020 Anthony Davis
30. 1994 Karl Malone

31. 2000 Grant Hill
32. 2017 Russell Westbrook
33. 2022 Joel Embiid
34. 2022 Luka Doncic
35. 1993 Charles Barkley

36. 1994 Scottie Pippen
37. 1995 Penny Hardaway
38. 1975 Bob McAdoo
39. 1991 Patrick Ewing
40. 1983 Moses Malone
41. 2019 Paul George
42. 2011 Dwight Howard
43. 1969 Willis Reed
44. 2003 Jason Kidd
45. 1972 Walt Frazier


46. 2001 Allen Iverson
47. 1975 Rick Barry
48. 1962 Elgin Baylor
49. 1970 John Havlicek
50. 2016 Draymond Green
HM: 1988 Kevin McHale

[70sFan]

I think the list is mostly fine and my disagreements should be seen as the matter of preferences, not necessarily mistakes.

My disagreements:


PGs:

1. I have Magic a little higher than Curry for peaks, but I can understand people that think differently.
2. I don't understand why the gap between Oscar and Curry/Magic is so big.
3. I think you forgot about Jerry West. I guess you have him 20th and that causes me to ask the same question posted in #2.
4. I have Westbrook considerably lower.
5. I have Frazier higher than Westbrook and Penny. I also don't think Kidd has a strong case over Walt peak-wise.

SGs:

1. I don't have Jordan as the GOAT peak.
2. I have Kobe a bit lower and I think both he and Wade are slightly too high on this list for my taste.
3. I like the rest of the list.

SFs:

1. I have Bird a bit lower than Magic, though I understand some may think differently.
2. I have Julius significantly higher, he's a lock top 20 peak for me. I have him ahead of Kawhi and Durant personally.
3. Durant is overrated to me for his peak. I would have him either at the end of the top 20 or even below it.
4. Kawhi would be like 5-10 spots lower to me.
5. I'd have Baylor a bit higher, though not by much.
6. In my recent evaluation, I would have Barry a bit lower than Baylor, but both are relatively close.
7. Too large gap between Pippen and Havlicek to me.

PFs:

1. Garnett a bit low to me.
2. I like Giannis rank, that's where I am comfortable with him right now.
3. Not a massive fan of peak Dirk, but he's a bit low for me here.
4. Barkley is way too low for me, he's top 30 peak to me.
5. No Pettit, but you already explained it.
6. No McHale, I'd have him inside top 50.

Cs:

1. I have Kareem comfortably ahead of Shaq for peaks at this point. Comparable offensive impact (in a different way), much better and less problematic defense.
2. I like Hakeem/Duncan/Wilt being in one tier. Not sure about the order, but nicely done.
3. Bill Russell is way too low for me. He's a lock top 10 peak for me, definitely ahead of Curry/BirdBryant/Magic.
4. Jokic is a bit low, although I still have my concerns about his postseason play.
5. Robinson and Walton ranks are fair to me.
6. Moses and Ewing are definitely too low for me.
7. Embiid is way too high for me.
8. I'd have Reed and Gilmore definitely in my top 50. Probably Thurmond and Mutombo as well.

As I said though, your list is quite consistent and I like it overall. Don't treat it like a criticism, more like a start to discussion

[ceoofkobefans]

I think the list is mostly fine and my disagreements should be seen as the matter of preferences, not necessarily mistakes.

My disagreements:


PGs:

1. I have Magic a little higher than Curry for peaks, but I can understand people that think differently.
2. I don't understand why the gap between Oscar and Curry/Magic is so big.
3. I think you forgot about Jerry West. I guess you have him 20th and that causes me to ask the same question posted in #2.
4. I have Westbrook considerably lower.
5. I have Frazier higher than Westbrook and Penny. I also don't think Kidd has a strong case over Walt peak-wise.

SGs:

1. I don't have Jordan as the GOAT peak.
2. I have Kobe a bit lower and I think both he and Wade are slightly too high on this list for my taste.
3. I like the rest of the list.

SFs:

1. I have Bird a bit lower than Magic, though I understand some may think differently.
2. I have Julius significantly higher, he's a lock top 20 peak for me. I have him ahead of Kawhi and Durant personally.
3. Durant is overrated to me for his peak. I would have him either at the end of the top 20 or even below it.
4. Kawhi would be like 5-10 spots lower to me.
5. I'd have Baylor a bit higher, though not by much.
6. In my recent evaluation, I would have Barry a bit lower than Baylor, but both are relatively close.
7. Too large gap between Pippen and Havlicek to me.

PFs:

1. Garnett a bit low to me.
2. I like Giannis rank, that's where I am comfortable with him right now.
3. Not a massive fan of peak Dirk, but he's a bit low for me here.
4. Barkley is way too low for me, he's top 30 peak to me.
5. No Pettit, but you already explained it.
6. No McHale, I'd have him inside top 50.

Cs:

1. I have Kareem comfortably ahead of Shaq for peaks at this point. Comparable offensive impact (in a different way), much better and less problematic defense.
2. I like Hakeem/Duncan/Wilt being in one tier. Not sure about the order, but nicely done.
3. Bill Russell is way too low for me. He's a lock top 10 peak for me, definitely ahead of Curry/BirdBryant/Magic.
4. Jokic is a bit low, although I still have my concerns about his postseason play.
5. Robinson and Walton ranks are fair to me.
6. Moses and Ewing are definitely too low for me.
7. Embiid is way too high for me.
8. I'd have Reed and Gilmore definitely in my top 50. Probably Thurmond and Mutombo as well.

As I said though, your list is quite consistent and I like it overall. Don't treat it like a criticism, more like a start to discussion

I’ll respond to the rest of the list later but I did forget Willis Reed! He’d prolly be in right above or below Kidd or Frazier

McHale I could also see In here but prolly more in the late 40s

[SHAQ32]

Cool list but I don't think I agree that Kidd and Draymond belong in top 50 peaks. Iverson too.

[AEnigma]

Have a lot of disputes with the top nineteen, but whatever.

The disinterest in those ~third tier centres would be my biggest comment (contrast with the peaks project), as well as Grant Hill at #30. Deeply curious about that one.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Cool list.

Grant Hill didn't peak higher than Luka though.... Well thought out and appreciate the work done.

BTW, you have Chris Paul twice at 19 and 20. I think you maybe meant to put Jerry West there?

[ceoofkobefans]

Cool list.

Grant Hill didn't peak higher than Luka though.... Well thought out and appreciate the work done.

BTW, you have Chris Paul twice at 19 and 20. I think you maybe meant to put Jerry West there?

I did mean to do that thanks for pointing that out. 19 is 15 Chris Paul 20 is 66 Jerry West

[ceoofkobefans]

My disagreements:


PGs:

1. I have Magic a little higher than Curry for peaks, but I can understand people that think differently.
2. I don't understand why the gap between Oscar and Curry/Magic is so big.
3. I think you forgot about Jerry West. I guess you have him 20th and that causes me to ask the same question posted in #2.
4. I have Westbrook considerably lower.
5. I have Frazier higher than Westbrook and Penny. I also don't think Kidd has a strong case over Walt peak-wise.

1. Yea I got the Whole 8-13 guys pretty much interchangeable

2. How big do you think it should be? For me I have Steph and Magic at least a tier above Oscar offensively and I think that they’re either the same tier or a tier above Oscar defensively (especially Steph). I could see west and Oscar closer to the 15 range

3. Yea west was supposed to be 20 I think we’ve talked about this before but I’m not as high on west’s defense as most of this forum is (if I was he would probably be at 14th or 15th for me) which is what puts him so low and I think he’s worse than Oscar on D

4. Why is that and where would you have him?

5. I think Walt and Kidd are pretty similar impact wise but I prefer Kidd’s playmaking over Walt’s scoring and by 03 Kidd is a + scorer and his transition play is better than anything Walt can do so i give him the edge but I think it can go either way

[quote=“70sFan”] SGs:

1. I don't have Jordan as the GOAT peak.
2. I have Kobe a bit lower and I think both he and Wade are slightly too high on this list for my taste.
3. I like the rest of the list. [/quote]

6. I can see bron over MJ

7. Where would they rank and why?

8.

[quote=“70sFan”] SFs:

1. I have Bird a bit lower than Magic, though I understand some may think differently.
2. I have Julius significantly higher, he's a lock top 20 peak for me. I have him ahead of Kawhi and Durant personally.
3. Durant is overrated to me for his peak. I would have him either at the end of the top 20 or even below it.
4. Kawhi would be like 5-10 spots lower to me.
5. I'd have Baylor a bit higher, though not by much.
6. In my recent evaluation, I would have Barry a bit lower than Baylor, but both are relatively close.
7. Too large gap between Pippen and Havlicek to me. [/quote]

9. Why is that?

10. Why? I’ve never really understood the Erving hype since he’s playing in the ABA and was clearly worse in the NBA when the talent pool is better. I could prolly see him in the t25 but t20 lock is crazy for me

11. I could see him a bit lower tbf

12. Really? I thought I was being low on him by having him at 23. I could see him below dirk and MAYBE Harden and Erving

13. I like his spot

14. Why? I think his mixture of scoring passing on and off ball play is better than most players ever and is enough to put him over Elgin offensively while I do like Elgin on D by a bit which makes it close for me

15. I could see Hondo higher but thought he should be closer to Elgin than anyone else (the big separator between Pippen and Hondo is defense anyway where the gap is large).


[quote=“70sFan”] PFs:

1. Garnett a bit low to me.
2. I like Giannis rank, that's where I am comfortable with him right now.
3. Not a massive fan of peak Dirk, but he's a bit low for me here.
4. Barkley is way too low for me, he's top 30 peak to me.
5. No Pettit, but you already explained it.
6. No McHale, I'd have him inside top 50. [/quote]

16. Where would you have him? I could see him a bit high but I like him more in the 11-13 range.

17.

18. Really? You’d have him higher? Idk how much higher I could be on dirk other than being > Jokic

19. I could see him at 30

20. Yea I need to clarify that I’m not including those guys

21. I could see it

[quote=“70sFan”] Cs:

1. I have Kareem comfortably ahead of Shaq for peaks at this point. Comparable offensive impact (in a different way), much better and less problematic defense.
2. I like Hakeem/Duncan/Wilt being in one tier. Not sure about the order, but nicely done.
3. Bill Russell is way too low for me. He's a lock top 10 peak for me, definitely ahead of Curry/BirdBryant/Magic.
4. Jokic is a bit low, although I still have my concerns about his postseason play.
5. Robinson and Walton ranks are fair to me.
6. Moses and Ewing are definitely too low for me.
7. Embiid is way too high for me.
8. I'd have Reed and Gilmore definitely in my top 50. Probably Thurmond and Mutombo as well. [/quote]

22. Really? I don’t really see the argument for Kareem over Shaq unless you’re high on Kareem’s O and low on Shaq’s D (I’m low on shaq’s D but I’m high on his O and I’m low on Kareem’s d as well).

23. Yea I could see the order of Kareem Hakeem TD and wilt being shuffled around

24. Definitely not a lock for me but I could see him at 8 potentially

25. Where would you have Jokic? I can’t really justify getting him much higher than like 21 maybe 20

26.

27. Really? Where would you have them?

28. I could see him a little bit lower but I think 33 can be argued for him

29. Reed should be in it I forgot him. I’d prolly have Gilmore just outside the t50. Mutumbo and Thurmond I might have t75 for peaks

Thanks for starting the discussion this is exactly what I was looking for!

[ceoofkobefans]

Have a lot of disputes with the top nineteen, but whatever.

The disinterest in those ~third tier centres would be my biggest comment (contrast with the peaks project), as well as Grant Hill at #30. Deeply curious about that one.

Would you have Hill higher or lower?

[AEnigma]

Have a lot of disputes with the top nineteen, but whatever.

The disinterest in those ~third tier centres would be my biggest comment (contrast with the peaks project), as well as Grant Hill at #30. Deeply curious about that one.

Would you have Hill higher or lower?

I have major issues with the postseason resilience of his scoring profile. For me he is a fringe top fifty peak, and even though I know some are higher, #30 seems pretty wild to me for a guy who never really showed he could take over a playoff series (even if in a loss).

[70sFan]

1. Yea I got the Whole 8-13 guys pretty much interchangeable

I understand that.

2. How big do you think it should be? For me I have Steph and Magic at least a tier above Oscar offensively and I think that they’re either the same tier or a tier above Oscar defensively (especially Steph). I could see west and Oscar closer to the 15 range

I don't think there should be any considerable gap between them. I may prefer Curry and Magic offensively overall, but they are all in the same tier. I think Oscar was clearly the best defender out of three. I get that some people became higher on Curry in recent seasons, but in this case Milwaukee Oscar was easily better defender than any version of Steph in my eyes.

3. Yea west was supposed to be 20 I think we’ve talked about this before but I’m not as high on west’s defense as most of this forum is (if I was he would probably be at 14th or 15th for me) which is what puts him so low and I think he’s worse than Oscar on D

4. Why is that and where would you have him?

I think you meant on O

I am clearly higher on West defense than you and I have him basically on the level you said (14-15 range). West to me is basically top 5 scorer ever (especially in postseason) with top tier defense for a guard. He's weaker version of Jordan to me and the gap is often overstated in my opinion.

5. I think Walt and Kidd are pretty similar impact wise but I prefer Kidd’s playmaking over Walt’s scoring and by 03 Kidd is a + scorer and his transition play is better than anything Walt can do so i give him the edge but I think it can go either way

I understand, although I wouldn't call Kidd a + scorer in 2003. 20.9 pp75 on +0.7 rTS% in RS and 20.2 pp75 on -0.1 rTS% in PS is nothing to rave about, especially compared to Walt's 21.5 pp75 on +7.2 rTS% in RS and 20.9 pp75 on +8.8 rTS% in PS. I also think that Walt was a better playmaker than people give him credit for. I just love his postseason resiliance.

6. I can see bron over MJ

I have these two neck-by-neck, but I actually have some two-way bigs ahead of them.

7. Where would they rank and why?

Probably inside top 20, but closer to bottom teens. I don't view either as top 10 offensive peak guy ever and their defense is not enough to make up for that. That said, probably around West is fair.

9. Why is that?

Not that high on Bird defense compared to some, I also think his weakness as a finisher and shot creator is why I view him lower than people who view him as GOAT level offensive player.

10. Why? I’ve never really understood the Erving hype since he’s playing in the ABA and was clearly worse in the NBA when the talent pool is better. I could prolly see him in the t25 but t20 lock is crazy for me

If you are low on ABA, I can understand that but I disagree. His production became worse due to horrible fit with other Sixers players, we have seen what he was capable of when he went off against Blazers in the finals next year.

Julius was just insane when he had more space to operate, watch some of his 1976 games if you have enough time.

12. Really? I thought I was being low on him by having him at 23. I could see him below dirk and MAYBE Harden and Erving

Based on your list, I can see him below Erving (of course), Davis, Barkley, Moses, Ewing... Top 30 is fair, but too high in my opinion.

14. Why? I think his mixture of scoring passing on and off ball play is better than most players ever and is enough to put him over Elgin offensively while I do like Elgin on D by a bit which makes it close for me

I became a bit lower on Barry scoring lately. He couldn't pressure defense inside at all in 1975, relying strictly on his jumpshot.

15. I could see Hondo higher but thought he should be closer to Elgin than anyone else (the big separator between Pippen and Hondo is defense anyway where the gap is large).

The gap is clear on defense, but at the same time Hondo was clearly better offensive player by my evaluation. To be fair, I don't like Pippen being this high to be honest, it's more about him being lower than Hondo being much higher.

16. Where would you have him? I could see him a bit high but I like him more in the 11-13 range.

I can see him inside top 10, but probably closer to 9-12 range. Not a big difference though.

18. Really? You’d have him higher? Idk how much higher I could be on dirk other than being > Jokic

Maybe a little bit higher, like 22? I don't know, would have to recreate my exact list.

19. I could see him at 30

I can see him being in Dirk tier.

[quote=“70sFan”] Cs:

1. I have Kareem comfortably ahead of Shaq for peaks at this point. Comparable offensive impact (in a different way), much better and less problematic defense.
2. I like Hakeem/Duncan/Wilt being in one tier. Not sure about the order, but nicely done.
3. Bill Russell is way too low for me. He's a lock top 10 peak for me, definitely ahead of Curry/BirdBryant/Magic.
4. Jokic is a bit low, although I still have my concerns about his postseason play.
5. Robinson and Walton ranks are fair to me.
6. Moses and Ewing are definitely too low for me.
7. Embiid is way too high for me.
8. I'd have Reed and Gilmore definitely in my top 50. Probably Thurmond and Mutombo as well. [/quote]

22. Really? I don’t really see the argument for Kareem over Shaq unless you’re high on Kareem’s O and low on Shaq’s D (I’m low on shaq’s D but I’m high on his O and I’m low on Kareem’s d as well).

I am high on Kareem's offense and low on Shaq's defense. Kareem was much better defender than Shaq, it's not even close in fact. Kareem was considerably better isolation scorer and I value this (along with better range and FT%) more than Shaq's offensive rebounding and inside finishing. I think people vastly underestimate how massive inside gravity peak Kareem had.

23. Yea I could see the order of Kareem Hakeem TD and wilt being shuffled around

I have Kareem ahead of all of them to be honest.

24. Definitely not a lock for me but I could see him at 8 potentially

Fair enough, I'm very high on individual defensive impact.

25. Where would you have Jokic? I can’t really justify getting him much higher than like 21 maybe 20

20 sounds fair. I don't think the gap between Giannis and Jokic is that big. I mean, we're talking about basically GOAT level offensive player.

27. Really? Where would you have them?

Moses inside top 30, Ewing around where you have Embiid.

28. I could see him a little bit lower but I think 33 can be argued for him

I have Ewing and Moses clearly higher than Embiid.

29. Reed should be in it I forgot him.

Yeah, it's tough to remember about everyone.

I’d prolly have Gilmore just outside the t50.

I have Gilmore inside top 40.

Mutumbo and Thurmond I might have t75 for peaks

I am very high on individual defense, as I said.

Thanks for starting the discussion this is exactly what I was looking for!

You're welcome and feel free to respond!

[LukaTheGOAT]

Further inquiring about the Grant Hill selection....How good do you think his defense is? And how would you compare his offense to Luka Doncic?

[falcolombardi]

Hello I am back and bored again so here’s another top 50 list at 6 am. This time it’s goat peaks

1. 1991 Michael Jordan (down 1 tier)
2. 2013 LeBron James
3. 2000 Shaquille O’Neal (down 1 tier, below duncan by a small margin)

4. 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (up 1 tier)
5. 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon
6. 2003 Tim Duncan (rank his peak above shaq)
7. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain

8. 1986 Larry Bird
9. 2016 Steph Curry
10. 2008 Kobe Bryant
11. 1987 Magic Johnson
12. 1962 Bill Russell
13. 2004 Kevin Garnett

14. 2009 Dwyane Wade
15. 1995 David Robinson
16. 2017 Kevin Durant
17. 2022 Giannis Antetokoumnpo

18. 1977 Bill Walton
19. 2015 Chris Paul
20. 1966 Jerry West
21. 1965 Oscar Robertson
22. 2007 Steve Nash
23. 2017 Kawhi Leonard
24. 2022 Nikola Jokic

25. 2011 Dirk Nowitzki
26. 2020 James Harden
27. 1976 Julius Erving
28. 2003 Tracy McGrady
29. 2020 Anthony Davis
30. 1994 Karl Malone

31. 2000 Grant Hill
32. 2017 Russell Westbrook
33. 2022 Joel Embiid
34. 2022 Luka Doncic
35. 1993 Charles Barkley

36. 1994 Scottie Pippen
37. 1995 Penny Hardaway
38. 1975 Bob McAdoo
39. 1991 Patrick Ewing
40. 1983 Moses Malone
41. 2019 Paul George
42. 2011 Dwight Howard
43. 1969 Willis Reed
44. 2003 Jason Kidd
45. 1972 Walt Frazier


46. 2001 Allen Iverson
47. 1975 Rick Barry
48. 1962 Elgin Baylor
49. 1970 John Havlicek
50. 2016 Draymond Green
HM: 1988 Kevin McHale

Nice list, the thinghs i disagree would mostly be some specific players placements (shaq vs duncan, jordan vs kareen/shaq)

I wont mention every rank i disagree with cause the post would be too long so i will focus on a few on your highes tier (maybe in another post i will post my view of the rest of the list in depth so we could talk about it)

Duncan vs shaq

Personally i dont have shaq on that exclusive "GOAT peak tier" i think he was not the best big peak in the early 00's (duncan) let alone ever.

His off ball value and scoring/creation are huge and his defense was mostly impactful in-era. But i think peak duncan has a huge defense gap over him and in his peak years like 2003 he actually -raised- his offense in the playoffs while maintaint his all time defense . Shaq in comparision fell down defensively in the 2000 playoffs. And some of his black marks like the lackluster series (on both ends) like the wcf vs portland a bit swept under the rug

The defense playoffs gap is to me bigger than the offense one as supported by duncan often being ahead in plus minus metrics. And arguably outplaying shaq in most of their series vs each other

Kareem vs shaq (will just quote 70's post here)

I am high on Kareem's offense and low on Shaq's defense. Kareem was much better defender than Shaq, it's not even close in fact. Kareem was considerably better isolation scorer and I value this (along with better range and FT%) more than Shaq's offensive rebounding and inside finishing. I think people vastly underestimate how massive inside gravity peak Kareem had.

Kareem off ball value and gravity are extremely underated as i dont think people truly conceptualize what kind of grsvity a post player in a league with no spacing was able to have.

We are talking about "get doubled/triple before even catching the ball" or "bill walton would forget about defending the rim amd just front kareem to stop him from getting the ball" **** in the [i]seventies[/i] kareem gravity was the shaq or curry gravity of his era

Kareem vs jordan

I think is taken too for granted that jordan is the peak guy and kareem the longevity guy and is oftem understated the outlier kareem was

His scoring was in my opinion -more- valuable in a vacuum than jordan scoring as he scored almost as much in way less shots. His efficiency was such a outlier at his volume that he actually added more "points" than jordan when adjusted to field goals used.

His defense was a lot more valuable too, as he was a legit dpoy impact for the bucks my most accounts and impact signals

Bucks went from a +2.7 (+ is below average for D) pre kareem to a -0.9 (3.6 points jump) in his rookie seasonwith him. then a elite range between -4 and -6 for the 71-74 stretch

For comparision year by year, the 84 bulls were a -0.1 (dead average) defense in 84 that became nesrly 2 points -worse- in 85 with jordan (+1.7), improved in 87 with oakley addition and jordan improvements to a -0.7, to a good but still fairly beloe kareem teams -2.5 in 88, then back to average in 89 without oakley and only reached kareen bucks like defense results after adding prime pippen and horace grant. Pippen and grant who kept the -defense- of the bulls throtting alone without jordan too ik 94'

These numbers are meant to be a example of the higher end defensive lift kareem provided compared to jordan. Which is also clear by eye test as kareem was a legitemately great rim protector which is a much higher value add than a great defensive guard

Of course jordan being a guard has a higher ability to convert his scoring pressure into creation for teammates which shrinks the gap between them but not enough for me to not prefer kareem who had himself some incredibly understated on and off ball gravity as a big in the 70's (often being doubled and triple teamed -without the ball- or -fronted- by other 7 footers who effectively sacrificed their rim protection just to deny kareem the ball)

Lebron vs jordan

This one is similar to me to kareem vs jordan but trading the specific advantage areas

I think lebron is a significatively (if by less margin than kareem) better defender at his peak than jordan and a smarter passer which is why i think he provides higher offense -and- defense peak impact at his best. Whicy to me beats jordan off-ball shooting game advantages clearly

And is evidenced in impact metrics data where lebron teams are lifted more defensively by lebron being on thr court than jordan teams while also reaching higher levels of offensive dominance in the playoffs (cases in point like the 2016 cavs where lebron ahd huge impact on his team defense while leading a legitemately goat tier playoffs offense

I don't think there should be any considerable gap between them. I may prefer Curry and Magic offensively overall, but they are all in the same tier. I think Oscar was clearly the best defender out of three. I get that some people became higher on Curry in recent seasons, but in this case Milwaukee Oscar was easily better defender than any version of Steph in my eyes.

Do you have oscar in a higher offense tier than west?

To me it looks like he is at least a equal scorer (better by the numbers in a reallt small margin) and superior passer (and leading generally better offense results across the decade

While i dont honestly see west famous portability advantage when both are isolation players who score, drive and create out of the threath of their midrange jumpers (oscar more so by posting up, west more so by faking and using footwork in face ups)

I can see bron over MJ i have these two neck-by-neck, but I actually have some two-way bigs ahead of them.

I made an argument to ceo that in his highest impact seasons and runs we have seen lebron play all time offense while maintaining elite defensive impact for a wing that i have clearly ahead of jordan defense value. Which to me is enough to move lebron peak a notch ahead of jordan.

Dunno what you think but is hard for me to see jordan case over somethingh like 2016 lebron where he was having elite wing/ power forward defensive impact (the team defense cratered without him) while leading an all time level offense

We dont have the same kind of signals of jordan impact in bulls defense at his peak

Bill Russell is way too low for me. He's a lock top 10 peak for me, definitely ahead of Curry/BirdBryant/Magic.

Strong agree

I am high on Kareem's offense and low on Shaq's defense. Kareem was much better defender than Shaq, it's not even close in fact. Kareem was considerably better isolation scorer and I value this (along with better range and FT%) more than Shaq's offensive rebounding and inside finishing. I think people vastly underestimate how massive inside gravity peak Kareem had.

As i said before i agree a lot with this view

[ceoofkobefans]

Further inquiring about the Grant Hill selection....How good do you think his defense is? And how would you compare his offense to Luka Doncic?

I think he’s a pretty good defender. Good help defender solid weak side rim protector good post defender and can live on the perimeter. If I’m doing a corp eval he’s prolly like a +.75 on Defense

Offensively I don’t think he stacks up as well as Luka but I think he’s an offensive superstar. T20 playmaker arguably and an elite scorer.

[70sFan]

Grant Hill is an interesting case. For some posters here, he's seen like a legit MVP level player, while for others just a solid all-nba level.

Personally, I don't see any reason to put him ahead of someone like Marques Johnson. I certainly fail to see his case over Barry or Baylor.

[ceoofkobefans]

Nice list, the thinghs i disagree would mostly be some specific players placements (shaq vs duncan, jordan vs kareen/shaq)

I wont mention every rank i disagree with cause the post would be too long so i will focus on a few on your highes tier (maybe in another post i will post my view of the rest of the list in depth so we could talk about it)

Duncan vs shaq

Personally i dont have shaq on that exclusive "GOAT peak tier" i think he was not the best big peak in the early 00's (duncan) let alone ever.

His off ball value and scoring/creation are huge and his defense was mostly impactful in-era. But i think peak duncan has a huge defense gap over him and in his peak years like 2003 he actually -raised- his offense in the playoffs while maintaint his all time defense . Shaq in comparision fell down defensively in the 2000 playoffs. And some of his black marks like the lackluster series (on both ends) like the wcf vs portland a bit swept under the rug

The defense playoffs gap is to me bigger than the offense one as supported by duncan often being ahead in plus minus metrics. And arguably outplaying shaq in most of their series vs each other

I’m high on Duncan’s peak but I can’t really see him competing with Shaq p4p. Looking at some stats

00 Shaq

30.3 IA PTS/75
3.9 IA AST/75
13.9 IA TRB/75
.5 STL/75
2.9 BLK/75
2.7 TOV/75
+5.5 rTS%
5.4 Box OC
5.1 Passer Rating
63 Spacing
8.4 cTOV%
43 Offensive Load
19.3 AST%
18.3 TRB%
+9.3 BPM (9 VORP)
+7.3 BP BPM
+8.12 RAPTOR
+7 APM
+6.1 AuPM

03 Duncan

25.4 IA PTS/75
4.3 IA AST/75
14 IA TRB/75
.7 STL/75
3 BLK/75
3.2 TOV/75
+4.5 rTS
4.3 Box OC
6.3 Passer rating
83 spacing
10.8 cTOV%
38.8 Offensive Load
+6.3 BP BPM
+7.51 RAPTOR
+5.7 APM
+5.6 AuPM

Shaq clears from a RS look at impact metrics let’s look at PO

00 Shaq

30.7 IA PTS/75
3.1 IA AST/75
15.5 IA TRB/75
.5 STL/75
2.2 BLK/75
2.3 TOV/75
+4.8 rTS
+8.1 BPM
+7.1 BP BPM
+6.3 3yr AuPM

03 Duncan

24.9 IA PTS/75
5.4 IA AST/75
15.5 IA TRB/75
.6 STL/75
3.1 BLK/75
2.9 TOV/75
+6.2 rTS%
+10.2 BPM
+8 BP BPM
+8.2 3yr AuPM

Duncan wins in the PO but I don’t see anything on film that indicates that he’d be this big of a PO riser from his RS results (or that he’d be a bigger riser than Shaq). Shaq has a better statistical footprint for Single and multi year peaks and I think he looks better on film. I think the offensive gap is too big.

Kareem vs shaq (will just quote 70's post here)

I am high on Kareem's offense and low on Shaq's defense. Kareem was much better defender than Shaq, it's not even close in fact. Kareem was considerably better isolation scorer and I value this (along with better range and FT%) more than Shaq's offensive rebounding and inside finishing. I think people vastly underestimate how massive inside gravity peak Kareem had.

Kareem off ball value and gravity are extremely underated as i dont think people truly conceptualize what kind of grsvity a post player in a league with no spacing was able to have.

I don’t think his off ball value is that much especially compared to Shaq and his gravity gets Exaggerated because of the lack of spacing not the other way around

We are talking about "get doubled/triple before even catching the ball" or "bill walton would forget about defending the rim amd just front kareem to stop him from getting the ball" **** in the [i]seventies[/i] kareem gravity was the shaq or curry gravity of his era

I mean wilt got treated like that too and like you said Shaq got treated like that but that’s with better spacing. Kobe got that treatment with better spacing and as a guard LeBron gets similar treatment

I don’t think Kareem as some sort of outlier gravity or even gravity like Shaq.

Kareem vs jordan

I think is taken too for granted that jordan is the peak guy and kareem the longevity guy and is oftem understated the outlier kareem was

His scoring was in my opinion -more- valuable in a vacuum than jordan scoring as he scored almost as much in way less shots. His efficiency was such a outlier at his volume that he actually added more "points" than jordan when adjusted to field goals used.

His defense was a lot more valuable too, as he was a legit dpoy impact for the bucks my most accounts and impact signals

Bucks went from a +2.7 (+ is below average for D) pre kareem to a -0.9 (3.6 points jump) in his rookie seasonwith him. then a elite range between -4 and -6 for the 71-74 stretch

For comparision year by year, the 84 bulls were a -0.1 (dead average) defense in 84 that became nesrly 2 points -worse- in 85 with jordan (+1.7), improved in 87 with oakley addition and jordan improvements to a -0.7, to a good but still fairly beloe kareem teams -2.5 in 88, then back to average in 89 without oakley and only reached kareen bucks like defense results after adding prime pippen and horace grant. Pippen and grant who kept the -defense- of the bulls throtting alone without jordan too ik 94'

These numbers are meant to be a example of the higher end defensive lift kareem provided compared to jordan. Which is also clear by eye test as kareem was a legitemately great rim protector which is a much higher value add than a great defensive guard

Of course jordan being a guard has a higher ability to convert his scoring pressure into creation for teammates which shrinks the gap between them but not enough for me to not prefer kareem who had himself some incredibly understated on and off ball gravity as a big in the 70's (often being doubled and triple teamed -without the ball- or -fronted- by other 7 footers who effectively sacrificed their rim protection just to deny kareem the ball)

Lebron vs jordan

This one is similar to me to kareem vs jordan but trading the specific advantage areas

I think lebron is a significatively (if by less margin than kareem) better defender at his peak than jordan and a smarter passer which is why i think he provides higher offense -and- defense peak impact at his best. Whicy to me beats jordan off-ball shooting game advantages clearly

And is evidenced in impact metrics data where lebron teams are lifted more defensively by lebron being on thr court than jordan teams while also reaching higher levels of offensive dominance in the playoffs (cases in point like the 2016 cavs where lebron ahd huge impact on his team defense while leading a legitemately goat tier playoffs offense

I don't think there should be any considerable gap between them. I may prefer Curry and Magic offensively overall, but they are all in the same tier. I think Oscar was clearly the best defender out of three. I get that some people became higher on Curry in recent seasons, but in this case Milwaukee Oscar was easily better defender than any version of Steph in my eyes.

Do you have oscar in a higher offense tier than west?

To me it looks like he is at least a equal scorer (better by the numbers in a reallt small margin) and superior passer (and leading generally better offense results across the decade

While i dont honestly see west famous portability advantage when both are isolation players who score, drive and create out of the threath of their midrange jumpers (oscar more so by posting up, west more so by faking and using footwork in face ups)

I have Oscar in between my second tier of offensive guys (Kobe Shaq bird Nash) and my third tier of offensive guys (harden Jokic kd west Kareem) but yes I think Oscar > west offensively and West > Oscar defensively. I definitely don’t think they’re = as scorers if they were Oscar would clear as an offensive player. I think west clears as a scorer while Oscar clears as a playmaker with the playmaking gap being bigger.

I can see bron over MJ i have these two neck-by-neck, but I actually have some two-way bigs ahead of them.

I made an argument to ceo that in his highest impact seasons and runs we have seen lebron play all time offense while maintaining elite defensive impact for a wing that i have clearly ahead of jordan defense value. Which to me is enough to move lebron peak a notch ahead of jordan.

Dunno what you think but is hard for me to see jordan case over somethingh like 2016 lebron where he was having elite wing/ power forward defensive impact (the team defense cratered without him) while leading an all time level offense

We dont have the same kind of signals of jordan impact in bulls defense at his peak

Bill Russell is way too low for me. He's a lock top 10 peak for me, definitely ahead of Curry/BirdBryant/Magic.

Strong agree

I am high on Kareem's offense and low on Shaq's defense. Kareem was much better defender than Shaq, it's not even close in fact. Kareem was considerably better isolation scorer and I value this (along with better range and FT%) more than Shaq's offensive rebounding and inside finishing. I think people vastly underestimate how massive inside gravity peak Kareem had.

As i said before i agree a lot with this view[/quote]

[70sFan]

I definitely agree that Kareem inside gravity is on par with anyone, Shaq included. To be honest, Shaq only clear advantage on offense is his offensive rebounding which is very important to me (unlike to some), but not to the degree to overcome the other advantages Kareem has on offense, let alone on defense.

[NW BBALL]

What is the argument for Penny Hardaway having a top 50 peak? Great player with great unfulfilled potential but I think he benefits in terms of nostalgia from having played with Shaq on a deep, young, exciting team.

Is his peak better than say ‘92 Drexler?

[Owly]

What is the argument for Penny Hardaway having top 50 peak? Great player with great unfulfilled potential but I think he benefits in terms of nostalgia from having played with Shaq on a deep, young, exciting team.

Is his peak better than say ‘92 Drexler?

Not to say he "is" somewhere specific, nor that I don't remember him and that Magic team with some nostalgia ...

He has very good box numbers (if not exceptional, Brandon's [also '96] RS Reference composites are very marginally superior across the board).
He led '96's (approximate) on-off at 17.1, hinting at very strong impact (Horace second on the team at 11.3). And I'd say Shaw is a solid backup.
He held up pretty well in the playoffs. Whilst game level BPM suggests (at first glance without knowing norms) that it wasn't mega consistent, the box composites suggest a high average standard.

I know Ben Taylor has made a push for him. I can't speak to the reasons otoh, but google should turn them up. That may make him trendy for some or a fawning, hipsterish pick for others, I don't know. But it might increase interest in him and hopefully more informed discussion.

I don't know where I'd rank him and it would depend a lot on criteria, and I'll caveat that I don't look into peaks that much, still first glance him above some of those mentioned: Hondo, Iverson, Barry, George, Kidd, McAdoo, Green, Reed doesn't seem ... wild to me. It's by no means a lock I'd have him in not least because as just stated I don't tend to do this so would have wide ranges anyway and criteria will vary. But he doesn't seem wildly out of place.

[ceoofkobefans]

I definitely agree that Kareem inside gravity is on par with anyone, Shaq included. To be honest, Shaq only clear advantage on offense is his offensive rebounding which is very important to me (unlike to some), but not to the degree to overcome the other advantages Kareem has on offense, let alone on defense.

I definitely disagree with that. I’d say Shaq is a lot better and more willing of the ball than Kareem although Kareem is usually pretty good at getting positioning he’s not really moving alot or screening or anything I also think Shaq is a better passer than 77 Kareem and has a lot more gravity which he’s really good at utilizing. I don’t think 77 Kareem is significantly better than 00 Shaq on D. I think they have similar motor issues although Kareem’s aren’t as bad and he’s better at coming out of the paint than Shaq. He may also be a slightly better rim protector by 77. I think 00 Shaq is prolly like a +1.25ish defender and 77 Kareem is a +1.5ish defender