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For today's NBA how many centers historically at their Peak would consider taking over current Jokic?

Most prime seasons of Shaq, Kareem, Duncan, Russell, Hakeem Wilt, KG , etc.

Robinson is arguable

Defensively Jokic isn’t close to most of these guys

I am just going to select bigs from the 90s on because that is what I feel confident in my opinion on. Also, not all my choices were 5s at their peak but I believe they would thrive at the 5 now. All this said, Jokic is awesome and having him only behind top 20 players all time should not be viewed as a slight.

Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
David Robinson
Maybe Kevin Garnett

It's sad how injuries to the Nuggets have affected him winning wise but even when Murray and Porter have been healthy they haven't looked very good defensively as a team, that's a knock on him if I'm going to compare him to the likes of Bucks Kareem, Hakeem at his best, Duncan and 99-00 Shaq.

I'd probably rank him around the level of David Robinson, but David was much better than him defensively and also better than him (and maybe anyone else in history) at making a roster look greater than it really was in the regular season.

For this era?

Probably just peak kareem, peak duncan and peak hakeem would i be comfortable with

Right now, I have him in the 2nd tier of top centers:

Tier 1

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan

Tier 2

Walton
Moses
Robinson
Jokic

Tier 3

Reed
Gilmore
Lanier
Ewing
Dwight
Embiid

So Jokic is a lock top 10 peak among centers and I have him closer to the top of tier 2 than the bottom. I think I'd rank him 7th or 8th (him vs Admiral), but I can see him sneaking into the tier 1 with current level of play.

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:It's sad how injuries to the Nuggets have affected him winning wise but even when Murray and Porter have been healthy they haven't looked very good defensively as a team, that's a knock on him if I'm going to compare him to the likes of Bucks Kareem, Hakeem at his best, Duncan and 99-00 Shaq.

I'd probably rank him around the level of David Robinson, but David was much better than him defensively and also better than him (and maybe anyone else in history) at making a roster look greater than it really was in the regular season.

You do realize that Murray and Porter were not exactly known to be good defensively even when completely healthy? The Nuggets have taken a big step back defensively in part because they're back in the rotation AND haven't been healthy.

As for the topic: I think Jokic may well be the greatest offensive big of all time. The big question mark is whether you can build a good enough defense around him (past seasons have shown that it's possible - 2019 and 2020) but I suppose until he wins a chip that question will always be around. Of the 90s-00s centers, I'll probably only consider Shaq and Timmy over him but I also harbor doubts over how effective they'd be on defense in today's game as well.

Peregrine01 wrote:

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:It's sad how injuries to the Nuggets have affected him winning wise but even when Murray and Porter have been healthy they haven't looked very good defensively as a team, that's a knock on him if I'm going to compare him to the likes of Bucks Kareem, Hakeem at his best, Duncan and 99-00 Shaq.

I'd probably rank him around the level of David Robinson, but David was much better than him defensively and also better than him (and maybe anyone else in history) at making a roster look greater than it really was in the regular season.

You do realize that Murray and Porter were not exactly known to be good defensively even when completely healthy? The Nuggets have taken a big step back defensively in part because they're back in the rotation AND haven't been healthy.

As for the topic: I think Jokic may well be the greatest offensive big of all time. The big question mark is whether you can build a good enough defense around him (past seasons have shown that it's possible - 2019 and 2020) but I suppose until he wins a chip that question will always be around. Of the 90s-00s centers, I'll probably only consider Shaq and Timmy over him but I also harbor doubts over how effective they'd be on defense in today's game as well.

I'm sorry, but it's relevant to the question of this thread given we're comparing him to other ATG Centers.

David Robinson spent a lot of his prime anchoring a elite defense with a backcourt of Vinny Del Negro and Avery Johnson....probably the slowest and undersized backcourt I've ever seen. Past prime guys like Dale Ellis and Doc Rivers as well.

Hakeem had the likes of Sleepy Floyd, Mad Max and Kenny Smith in the backcourt churning out elite top 5 defences as well.

You could literally throw a prime DRob/Hakeem with virtually any roster and you were guaranteed a elite defense.

Jokic on the other hand clearly can't cover for the flaws a team might have on the defensive end save for defensive rebounding.

falcolombardi wrote:For this era?

Probably just peak kareem, peak duncan and peak hakeem would i be comfortable with

Shaq?

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:

Peregrine01 wrote:

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:It's sad how injuries to the Nuggets have affected him winning wise but even when Murray and Porter have been healthy they haven't looked very good defensively as a team, that's a knock on him if I'm going to compare him to the likes of Bucks Kareem, Hakeem at his best, Duncan and 99-00 Shaq.

I'd probably rank him around the level of David Robinson, but David was much better than him defensively and also better than him (and maybe anyone else in history) at making a roster look greater than it really was in the regular season.

You do realize that Murray and Porter were not exactly known to be good defensively even when completely healthy? The Nuggets have taken a big step back defensively in part because they're back in the rotation AND haven't been healthy.

As for the topic: I think Jokic may well be the greatest offensive big of all time. The big question mark is whether you can build a good enough defense around him (past seasons have shown that it's possible - 2019 and 2020) but I suppose until he wins a chip that question will always be around. Of the 90s-00s centers, I'll probably only consider Shaq and Timmy over him but I also harbor doubts over how effective they'd be on defense in today's game as well.

I'm sorry, but it's relevant to the question of this thread given we're comparing him to other ATG Centers.

David Robinson spent a lot of his prime anchoring a elite defense with a backcourt of Vinny Del Negro and Avery Johnson....probably the slowest and undersized backcourt I've ever seen. Past prime guys like Dale Ellis and Doc Rivers as well.

Hakeem had the likes of Sleepy Floyd, Mad Max and Kenny Smith in the backcourt churning out elite top 5 defences as well.

You could literally throw a prime DRob/Hakeem with virtually any roster and you were guaranteed a elite defense.

Jokic on the other hand clearly can't cover for the flaws a team might have on the defensive end save for defensive rebounding.

I think era to era comparisons need to be considered here. The game is way more spaced out and shooting is far more weaponized than the mid-90s when half-court offenses could be distilled to: throw it in to your big and let him iso.

I just have a hard time imagining even a great defensive C like DRob or Hakeem leading a great team defense today with bad defenders around him. And it's not like Hakeem played with bad defenders (DRob was more the heavy lifter) during those Rockets runs either - Mad Max was a perimeter hound like Marcus Smart, Ellie was a strong defender and Horry was as well.

Peregrine01 wrote:

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:

Peregrine01 wrote:
You do realize that Murray and Porter were not exactly known to be good defensively even when completely healthy? The Nuggets have taken a big step back defensively in part because they're back in the rotation AND haven't been healthy.

As for the topic: I think Jokic may well be the greatest offensive big of all time. The big question mark is whether you can build a good enough defense around him (past seasons have shown that it's possible - 2019 and 2020) but I suppose until he wins a chip that question will always be around. Of the 90s-00s centers, I'll probably only consider Shaq and Timmy over him but I also harbor doubts over how effective they'd be on defense in today's game as well.

I'm sorry, but it's relevant to the question of this thread given we're comparing him to other ATG Centers.

David Robinson spent a lot of his prime anchoring a elite defense with a backcourt of Vinny Del Negro and Avery Johnson....probably the slowest and undersized backcourt I've ever seen. Past prime guys like Dale Ellis and Doc Rivers as well.

Hakeem had the likes of Sleepy Floyd, Mad Max and Kenny Smith in the backcourt churning out elite top 5 defences as well.

You could literally throw a prime DRob/Hakeem with virtually any roster and you were guaranteed a elite defense.

Jokic on the other hand clearly can't cover for the flaws a team might have on the defensive end save for defensive rebounding.

I think era to era comparisons need to be considered here. The game is way more spaced out and shooting is far more weaponized than the mid-90s when half-court offenses could be distilled to: throw it in to your big and let him iso.

I just have a hard time imagining even a great defensive C like DRob or Hakeem leading a great team defense today with bad defenders around him. And it's not like Hakeem played with bad defenders (DRob was more the heavy lifter) during those Rockets runs either - Mad Max was a perimeter hound like Marcus Smart, Ellie was a strong defender and Horry was as well.

I know it didn't work out in the playoffs (which was expected), but Gobert literally did that in 2021.

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:For this era?

Probably just peak kareem, peak duncan and peak hakeem would i be comfortable with

Shaq?

Heavy doubts on his defense today and i prefer jokic offense for modern game

He could still be better than nikola but i dont see it as a clear thingh

70sFan wrote:

Peregrine01 wrote:

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:
I'm sorry, but it's relevant to the question of this thread given we're comparing him to other ATG Centers.

David Robinson spent a lot of his prime anchoring a elite defense with a backcourt of Vinny Del Negro and Avery Johnson....probably the slowest and undersized backcourt I've ever seen. Past prime guys like Dale Ellis and Doc Rivers as well.

Hakeem had the likes of Sleepy Floyd, Mad Max and Kenny Smith in the backcourt churning out elite top 5 defences as well.

You could literally throw a prime DRob/Hakeem with virtually any roster and you were guaranteed a elite defense.

Jokic on the other hand clearly can't cover for the flaws a team might have on the defensive end save for defensive rebounding.

I think era to era comparisons need to be considered here. The game is way more spaced out and shooting is far more weaponized than the mid-90s when half-court offenses could be distilled to: throw it in to your big and let him iso.

I just have a hard time imagining even a great defensive C like DRob or Hakeem leading a great team defense today with bad defenders around him. And it's not like Hakeem played with bad defenders (DRob was more the heavy lifter) during those Rockets runs either - Mad Max was a perimeter hound like Marcus Smart, Ellie was a strong defender and Horry was as well.

I know it didn't work out in the playoffs (which was expected), but Gobert literally did that in 2021.

Good call out. What I meant by "great" would probably be better described as "robust".

Peregrine01 wrote:I think era to era comparisons need to be considered here. The game is way more spaced out and shooting is far more weaponized than the mid-90s when half-court offenses could be distilled to: throw it in to your big and let him iso.

I just have a hard time imagining even a great defensive C like DRob or Hakeem leading a great team defense today with bad defenders around him. And it's not like Hakeem played with bad defenders (DRob was more the heavy lifter) during those Rockets runs either - Mad Max was a perimeter hound like Marcus Smart, Ellie was a strong defender and Horry was as well.

Robinson and Olajuwon (and probably Russell too from what ive seen) were agile enough to impact what was happening on the perimeter in stretches defensively in addition to protecting the rim. I don't think any of them would be out of place in this more perimeter oriented league. Brook Lopez is 34 years old and leading the league in blocks. I don't believe the aforementioned guys would fare any worse in their primes.

If they got caught on switches on the perimeter they were still agile enough to keep smaller players in front of them (where Jokic really struggles....sometimes it's lack of mobility and other times he just mails it in). They had fast hands and anticipation to create steals like the best perimeter pickpockets in history.

Vernon did nothing of worth defensively his entire career outside of Houston. It had more to do with who was backing him up in the paint those years.

And if you take away Elie (wasn't making any mark defensively in the NBA b4 Houston) Vernon, and Horry....you'll see long before any of them arrived Hakeem was still anchoring top 5 ranked defences in Houston from 87-88 to 89-90.

The Nuggets 28th ranked out of 30? Inexcusable!

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:

Peregrine01 wrote:I think era to era comparisons need to be considered here. The game is way more spaced out and shooting is far more weaponized than the mid-90s when half-court offenses could be distilled to: throw it in to your big and let him iso.

I just have a hard time imagining even a great defensive C like DRob or Hakeem leading a great team defense today with bad defenders around him. And it's not like Hakeem played with bad defenders (DRob was more the heavy lifter) during those Rockets runs either - Mad Max was a perimeter hound like Marcus Smart, Ellie was a strong defender and Horry was as well.

Robinson and Olajuwon (and probably Russell too from what ive seen) were agile enough to impact what was happening on the perimeter in stretches defensively in addition to protecting the rim. I don't think any of them would be out of place in this more perimeter oriented league. Brook Lopez is 34 years old and leading the league in blocks. I don't believe the aforementioned guys would fate any worse in their primes.

I'm quite sure that Robinson and Olajuwon would be great defenders today, like they were in their era. I'm just not sure their defensive impact would be quite the same.

Brook is certainly helped by having strong defenders all around him - especially on the perimeter.

Regular season wise you could make an argument he’s a top tier guy, offensively I’d say he’s clearly a GOAT center type guy, really imo if he does what he does for a full playoff run he’s in the GOAT offensive player debate for me, portable ATG scorer given his absurd efficiency mostly by himself that is the best playmaker in his position by a country mile

Defensively in the RS he’s a strong positive probably, whereas in the playoffs the issue is he goes from that to a horrible negative thus far, altho the extent it happens is a bit weird to say it’s probably somewhat noise

70sFan wrote:Right now, I have him in the 2nd tier of top centers:

Tier 1

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan

Tier 2

Walton
Moses
Robinson
Jokic

Tier 3

Reed
Gilmore
Lanier
Ewing
Dwight
Embiid

So Jokic is a lock top 10 peak among centers and I have him closer to the top of tier 2 than the bottom. I think I'd rank him 7th or 8th (him vs Admiral), but I can see him sneaking into the tier 1 with current level of play.

He probably belongs in Tier 1 given the past 3-4 seasons.

Having a Patriot missile system behind you knocking down almost everything that gets close to the rim is a HUGE boon for perimeter defenders

ty 4191 wrote:

70sFan wrote:Right now, I have him in the 2nd tier of top centers:

Tier 1

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan

Tier 2

Walton
Moses
Robinson
Jokic

Tier 3

Reed
Gilmore
Lanier
Ewing
Dwight
Embiid

So Jokic is a lock top 10 peak among centers and I have him closer to the top of tier 2 than the bottom. I think I'd rank him 7th or 8th (him vs Admiral), but I can see him sneaking into the tier 1 with current level of play.

He probably belongs in Tier 1 given the past 3-4 seasons.

Maybe, but I have far more concerns about Jokic defense than some of his fans.

Basically just the centers who are considered top 10 all time. Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Duncan(C?), Russell, Hakeem. Those guys are all considerably better defenders at their peaks and don’t see any offensive decline in the postseason.

Cases can be made for Drob and Walton, but I wouldn’t make them. Maybe Ewing and Moses with weak cases?

Don’t really see a case for Dwight or Zo.