70sFan wrote:Curry with Payton defense would be like a smaller, better shooting Jordan (not in terms of style, but results). It is amazing... but I don't think it's really something to rave about in comparison to Magic adding GOAT-level shooting or making Chris Paul 6'8.
Also, it became quite strange to me that Curry, from being very underrated defensively (even by me), became overrated defender by a significant margin. I mean, he's solid and when he has good teammates and system to hide him, he could be even a solid contributor, but I don't understand when he became clearly better than Magic. I know that Magic couldn't protect the paint, but neither can Curry. I know that Magic wasn't quick laterally, but neither is Curry. Magic wouldn't defend guards these days, he'd probably defend corner shooters or stretch bigs. You don't need a lot of quickness for that.
If the latter part is directed at me, me saying that "on defense, Curry's a little over neutral" is somehow misjudging Curry as an "overrated defender by a significant margin."... Really? Saying Curry's slightly over neutral is a massive overrating?
Curry's not great laterally, but to me he's quicker laterally than Magic. Neither are ideal as point of attack defenders and both are better suited elsewhere, but we do live in an era where deep playoff runs almost always require beating a team that picks on the slowest lateral defender constantly in pick and roll or isolation. To me, Curry's stronger there than Magic in the film I've seen of them both.
This isn't saying Magic doesn't do anything defensively better than Curry (again I like his defensive rebounding and his IQ), this isn't me saying Curry's in another world defensively, this is me just saying I'm
slightly more comfortable with Curry on a modern defense than Magic. Not sure how this is a massive overrating of Curry
OhayoKD wrote:DraymondGold wrote:OhayoKD wrote:
So you're assuming he gets ray's ability to shoot, but defenses don't fundementally shift how they defend him because he isn't moving off the ball?
Well now you're just flat-out putting words in my mouth that I didn't say, mon ami.
Yes, the defense changes how they defend Magic if he's a better shooter. No, that change alone does not necessarily guarantee it will be more valuable than Curry with significantly better defense, at least without further evidence. And yes, just adding Skill A is not as valuable as adding Skill A and Skill B...
This is fairly straightforward reasoning here... If Magic + Skill A < Curry + Skill B, then maybe Magic + Skill A + Skill C > Curry + Skill B.
Ray All was never an on-ball shooter. His greatest skill was catch-and-shoot shooting. Magic, similarly, was never a guy to shoot incredibly quickly off the dribble or shoot from incredible range at high volume. Where Magic forced the defense to make impossible decisions was in his near-unrivaled ability in transition, and in his combination of size and passing in the half court. For example, in the half court, he would use his size as a mismatch to post up defenders... they can't just let him post up alone, or he'll score on good efficiency, so they double him... but doubling Magic Johnson was perhaps the worst thing you could do, as it made it even easier for him to pick you apart with his passing.
How does improved shooting accuracy (with no other changes) play into this kind of game? Magic would shoot a jump shot if left open, but he was never the kind of guy to shoot from 3 after the slightest possible opening after an on-ball screen or off-ball screen. So this raises the question: with a better jumpshot, does Magic change his shooting or scoring habits, and (assuming so), in what way do these change? Which is why I said in my post that I'd need a sense of how much Magic's scoring volume increased. Would he start shooting more aggressively at higher volume on-ball? Would he gain some of Ray Allen's off-ball ability? Or would he continue prioritizing his playmaking volume, and simply make the shots that he already took at a higher efficiency? If it's the former, then this would improve his value more (as I said), and make it more likely that he would overcome the Curry-Payton combo. If it's the latter, it would indeed make it even more difficult for the defense to guard him, but wouldn't be a full game-breaking as the former, and thus be less likely to beat the other game-breaking combos.
If you'd like to make a more detailed argument for Magic, you're welcome to! But just saying the defense defends him differently and pretending like I wouldn't agree with that isn't really a fair start...
). I do see Paul getting better defensively with more height. Height would also give him greater resilience in his midrange scoring and the ability to pass over the top of defenders. I'd still be worried about his health though.