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On your all time-list how many players would you say have a case over Bill Russell?

I'll only say the fellow top 5 Centers ever and probably Duncan too.

Wilt
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq

Moreso based on skillset than the amount of titles they won.

Each of them skillwise have some sort of clear advantage over him in addition to winning multiple titles.

Jordan
Lebron
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq

I usually rank him at 8 or 9 but I believe he came out as 9th the last time I made an all time list. The players above him being

LeBron
Kareem
MJ
Tim Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
Hakeem
Wilt

I have debated on whether to put Jordan, James and Chamberlain over him on my personal list.

I have not seriously considered Kareem over him but if I focused on career value/longevity then I would.

So I would say those 4 have reasonable cases.

As ever very much depends on criteria and in this instance what range of criteria one is willing to accept as reasonable/plausible or whatever.

Fwiw, the lowest I've seen him published is 10, then 9, though the 10 is actually a bit lower a ranking in real-terms for modern lists. The book placing him immediately behind Rick Barry and Bob Cousy in 1993 would presumably see him much lower in absolute terms with another 30 years of players. The 2004 newspaper article that has him 9th has Karl Malone 6th. Slam presents in 2018 also had him 7th and Slam then 6th in 2021. Otherwise (and these printed lists skew older, i.e. pre-LeBron and Duncan as possibly "up there") I can't see one that had him outside the top 4, though even within just those it would not be the same three ever being above him.

Wilt
Kareem
Jordan
Lebron

That’s it.

I imagine the specific answer centers around the exact things one values for the sake of GOAT arguments.

For me off the cuff?

I find it hard to argue in favor of anyone else besides Kareem, Jordan or Lebron. I can at least appreciate the why behind arguing for Wilt, even though I'd never do it.

Very few, for me probably no more than 3-4 guys.

The opposite is also interesting - you can make the easiest case for Russell being the GOAT against basically anyone. Even Jordan case (popularity and team accomplishements) or James case (longevity GOAT at this point) are not as straightforward as in Russell's case.

I have Jordan, LeBron and Kareem ahead and I think arguments could be made for Duncan and Wilt as well so 5.

Can anyone make a case for Mikan? During Russell's (and Wilt's) career, he was still named the greatest player in NBA history though I don't remember the year or who did the survey. He's always the toughest for me, not just because I didn't see him, but because the numbers aren't there either.

As for me, I don't think I've ever seriously considered anyone else but LeBron or Jordan. I could make a case for Wilt or Kareem but not without greatly changing up my criteria.

penbeast0 wrote:Can anyone make a case for Mikan? During Russell's (and Wilt's) career, he was still named the greatest player in NBA history though I don't remember the year or who did the survey. He's always the toughest for me, not just because I didn't see him, but because the numbers aren't there either.

As for me, I don't think I've ever seriously considered anyone else but LeBron or Jordan. I could make a case for Wilt or Kareem but not without greatly changing up my criteria.

Mikan has the greatest relative dominance compared to his own era and forced even more rule changes to stop his dominance than Wilt and Kareem so technically you can make an argument for him as the GOAT. However, the early 50s was weak even compared to just a couple year later and his longevity doesn't stack up especialy well either so his argument is never more than a technicality to me. He's just incredibly difficult to place although he maybe should be considered higher than he is now.

penbeast0 wrote:Can anyone make a case for Mikan? During Russell's (and Wilt's) career, he was still named the greatest player in NBA history though I don't remember the year or who did the survey. He's always the toughest for me, not just because I didn't see him, but because the numbers aren't there either.

As for me, I don't think I've ever seriously considered anyone else but LeBron or Jordan. I could make a case for Wilt or Kareem but not without greatly changing up my criteria.

I think Mikan is one of few players who have a case, but I'm not really sure if he dominated his era more than Russell did.

Jordan
LeBron
Hakeem
Duncan
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq

All top ten level Big men + KG

MJ, LeBron. Not sure about Magic , Curry, Oscar

I see a lot of Shaq mentions and I wonder what would be a reasonable argumentation for him over Russell.

70sFan wrote:I see a lot of Shaq mentions and I wonder what would be a reasonable argumentation for him over Russell.

Wouldn't it be the same as any post 60's non-longevity case? "Era-translation go vroom"

OhayoKD wrote:

70sFan wrote:I see a lot of Shaq mentions and I wonder what would be a reasonable argumentation for him over Russell.

Wouldn't it be the same as any post 60's non-longevity case? "Era-translation go vroom"

I'm not sure Shaq translates better to the modern era than Russell though, that's the point.

70sFan wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

70sFan wrote:I see a lot of Shaq mentions and I wonder what would be a reasonable argumentation for him over Russell.

Wouldn't it be the same as any post 60's non-longevity case? "Era-translation go vroom"

I'm not sure Shaq translates better to the modern era than Russell though, that's the point.

There isn't really if you don't ignore defense or have the mythical version of Shaq who stomps on everyone like Godzilla.

Shaq would be abused more on defense than he would from the gains he got on offense in today's game.

Matt15 wrote:On your all time-list how many players would you say have a case over Bill Russell?

I'd say Russell is the guy among the GOAT candidates where the widest range of positions is appropriate, because he went about things so differently than basically any best-in-game type player before or after.

Russell is a man who hacked the game of basketball. Before him, blocking shots really wasn't seen as the way to dominate the game. That might sound strange because Russell wasn't the first big man, but from my historical research, what I'd say is that the man who really was something like Russell before Russell was Bob Kurland - who was taller, longer, and a better leaper than Mikan, while also focused less on scoring. But Kurland never played in the pros, and with the implementation of the goaltending rule, looks to me like the general consensus was that you really couldn't do that much blocking shots.

This isn't to say that George Mikan wasn't a threat to block shots, but I'd say his focus was less on shotblocking, and more on physical domination of the interior through rebounding. (And I'll note, it does seem like Mikan was able to physically dominate Kurland this way as well...up until he fouled out.)

So Russell comes into college basketball as an unheralded player, and proceeds to become unbeatable primarily through his shot blocking and deterrence. And through his pro career, he refines this killer edge more and more, focusing less on other stuff, becoming in essence a role player in the sense that he specialized...but being more valuable than everyone else.

I admire Russell above all other athletes for what he accomplished, and how he went about doing it, and think he's a very strong GOAT candidate depending on specifically what criteria is being used.

At the same time, while I think Russell would be the best defender in today's league, I wouldn't expect him to have of MVP-type impact, and so can see a case for ranking him below everyone in the game who would have MVP-type impact.

This of course can get us into all sorts of charged conversations about whether it's fair to judge a player for optimizing his game around a style of play that has now been usurped, but I don't think I need to elaborate there, key things for me:

- Respect what Russell did and how far beyond established norms of greatness it was, then or now.

- Understand that there are valid reasons to be concerned about whether someone like him really would be able to be a top tier player today.