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Most Athletic PG Ever?
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 3:17 pm
by pipfan
I think there are only 3 real candidates-Rose/WB/Morant
Lots of other incredible athletes but these 3 stand alone-each with their own special gifts. Of course, there are many different factors that make up "athleticism", so define it how you want. Which one is the best of the three?
Re: Most Athletic PG Ever?
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 4:20 pm
by Owly
Depends on framing/what one means e.g.
- Versus era or in a vacuum
- limits of what is athleticism (strength? lateral motion? agility? reaction speed? cardio? is it limited to that consistently [and usefully?] applied in games? or off court e.g. raw vertical, lifting maxes etc). Often the focus is on straight line speed and vertical when dunking (maybe acceleration). Also how do we aggregate the parts, what weighting etc.
- What level of play required? A Sporting News page gives Kay Felder as the highest vertical among points measured. There will be many we don't have data on. The Bulls selected Carl Lewis in the 10th round, does he count? Does Mike Conley Sr as a freshman NCAA player?
- Where are the positional lines drawn (was Jerry West a 1 or 2, Bob Sura? Dee Brown? Just throwing out some leapers here that played some at both guard spots, not that they're necessarily legit candidates for no 1).
- at athletic peak or is longevity of athleticism required? Is health a factor (say if one thought Derrick Rose was the most athletic on his day, but also that there's a fair chance that he would be unavailable or sub-optimal on a given day to showcase this ... how does this factor)?
Since I mentioned a couple of dunk contestants I should probably note Webb and Nate Robinson as small guy leapers.
Re: Most Athletic PG Ever?
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 4:44 pm
by mdonnelly1989
I chose. D Rose. I think for his 2 seasons in Chicago, he was comparable Athletically with some of the all time greats. For just his prime he's a top 10 Athletic player of all time.
Although I will say it's 1A and 1B between he and Westbrook who would both get a 100 as the baseline for Athletic ability.
Ja would probably be about a 98.
Re: Most Athletic PG Ever?
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 6:04 pm
by penbeast0
I count coordination (both hand-eye and body control), quickness (both 1st step, lateral, and quick hands), strength (both upper body and lower body), leaping, and speed (end to end) as key elements of PG athleticism with an emphasis on those skills most relevant to PGs (coordination, quickness, and speed more than strength and leaping). I look at their results in era because I don't think the word "athleticism" is about how much strength or conditioning training (or how many performance enhancing medications) you are able to access. I don't count what I consider mental attributes such as peripheral vision, bbiq, or predictive ability.
If you take size into account, you have to include the likes of Oscar and Magic into the equation, LeBron if he is playing the point. If you mean don't count size based results, then Muggsy and Spud probably rank above the likes of Rose and Morant. It's ridiculous to think of a guy being a near all-star like Muggsy while being a full foot shorter than Steph Curry, as much shorter than Curry as Curry was than Shaq!
Overall, not taking size into account, I'd probably go with Westbrook if I had to pick one off eye test without measurements. This is the ability to use athleticism to get his way on the court (again, LeBron if he counts). Steve Francis gets an honorable mention too, probably more athletic than Derrick Rose at his peak though Rose seemed more mentally capable of playing the PG role.
Re: Most Athletic PG Ever?
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:26 pm
by Owly
penbeast0 wrote:I count coordination (both hand-eye and body control), quickness (both 1st step, lateral, and quick hands), strength (both upper body and lower body), leaping, and speed (end to end) as key elements of PG athleticism with an emphasis on those skills most relevant to PGs (coordination, quickness, and speed more than strength and leaping). I look at their results in era because I don't think the word "athleticism" is about how much strength or conditioning training (or how many performance enhancing medications) you are able to access. I don't count what I consider mental attributes such as peripheral vision, bbiq, or predictive ability.
If you take size into account, you have to include the likes of Oscar and Magic into the equation, LeBron if he is playing the point. If you mean don't count size based results, then Muggsy and Spud probably rank above the likes of Rose and Morant. It's ridiculous to think of a guy being a near all-star like Muggsy while being a full foot shorter than Steph Curry, as much shorter than Curry as Curry was than Shaq!
Overall, not taking size into account, I'd probably go with Westbrook if I had to pick one off eye test without measurements. This is the ability to use athleticism to get his way on the court (again, LeBron if he counts). Steve Francis gets an honorable mention too, probably more athletic than Derrick Rose at his peak though Rose seemed more mentally capable of playing the PG role.
Francis was a better defender too, whilst playing his significant offensive role and playing big minutes. So there's probably some physical tools (e.g. strength, lateral mobility) to that defense, plus the motor to be a two way player for 40 minutes. He seems like a worthwhile mention.
Re: Most Athletic PG Ever?
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:35 am
by LukaTheGOAT
Amen Thompson when he steps foot in the league next year.
Re: Most Athletic PG Ever?
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:43 am
by oaktownwarriors87
GP2 is a freak
Re: Most Athletic PG Ever?
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2022 6:51 am
by SpreeS
There are different types of athleticism. Is strength part of athleticism? Kidd? What about the smallest dudes Bogues, Webb, Nate?
Re: Most Athletic PG Ever?
Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2022 5:04 pm
by McBubbles
9 times out of 10 "athleticism" refers to explosive athleticism + height, which I assume OP is referring to because comparing non sexy athletic traits like proprioception, balance, reflexes, hand-eye co-ordination, stamina, injury resistance, skill acquisition speed etc is very difficult.
On that note, Westbrook is the most "athletic" PG of all time and it's not particularly close imo. Magic, Oscar and Simmons are tall but not particularly standout athletes for their height in regards to explosiveness, and Ja Morant and Drose are just shorter, MUCH skinnier versions of Westbrook. Better touches round the rim but not more athletic.
A thought experiment I like to engage in when thinking about the word athletic is "How well would this player do in other sports if they never played basketball?" Westbrook would do better than any other PG imo, followed by Rose and Morant.
Re: Most Athletic PG Ever?
Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2022 6:26 pm
by No-more-rings
Westbrook, go re-watch him from 2014-2017. Dude was a freak with a nonstop motor.
Re: Most Athletic PG Ever?
Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2022 8:45 pm
by kcktiny
I think there are only 3 real candidates-Rose/WB/Morant
Re: Most Athletic PG Ever?
Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2022 10:35 am
by Gooner
Re: Most Athletic PG Ever?
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:40 am
by SinceGatlingWasARookie
pipfan wrote:I think there are only 3 real candidates-Rose/WB/Morant
Lots of other incredible athletes but these 3 stand alone-each with their own special gifts. Of course, there are many different factors that make up "athleticism", so define it how you want. Which one is the best of the three?
Why did you not think Iverson was more athletic. He was quicker than all of them and changed directions better than any of them.
I don’t like calling size athleticism. What Rose and Westbrook have over Iverson is size.
There is a shortage of film of peak Nate Archibald but by reputation pre injury Archibald belongs in the discussion.
Re: Most Athletic PG Ever?
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 3:07 am
by prolific passer
Rose and Westbrook for normal sized point guards. Webb and Nate for undersized point guards. Big point guards? Oscar of course. Penny when he was healthy. Magic seems to be pretty underrated athletically.
Tiny, Iverson, and Isiah for those 6 foot to 6'1" guys who had short but effective careers.
Re: Most Athletic PG Ever?
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:21 am
by Cavsfansince84
prolific passer wrote:Rose and Westbrook for normal sized point guards. Webb and Nate for undersized point guards. Big point guards? Oscar of course. Penny when he was healthy. Magic seems to be pretty underrated athletically.
Tiny, Iverson, and Isiah for those 6 foot to 6'1" guys who had short but effective careers.
With Magic I don't think its so much the athleticism as much as the handles and fluidity he possessed at his height. Defenders had to take into account the way in which he could pull passes off at most any moment which makes it harder to guard someone.
Re: Most Athletic PG Ever?
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:40 am
by McBubbles
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:pipfan wrote:I think there are only 3 real candidates-Rose/WB/Morant
Lots of other incredible athletes but these 3 stand alone-each with their own special gifts. Of course, there are many different factors that make up "athleticism", so define it how you want. Which one is the best of the three?
Why did you not think Iverson was more athletic. He was quicker than all of them and changed directions better than any of them.
I don’t like calling size athleticism. What Rose and Westbrook have over Iverson is size.
There is a shortage of film of peak Nate Archibald but by reputation pre injury Archibald belongs in the discussion.
Thought Iverson would be in the SG category. If he's being listed as a PG then it's a toss up between him and Westbrook. Much shorter, MUCH slimmer, but was even faster, good jump even higher and arguably had even better stamina.
Re: Most Athletic PG Ever?
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:06 am
by eminence
McBubbles wrote: non sexy athletic traits like proprioception, balance, reflexes, hand-eye co-ordination, stamina, injury resistance, skill acquisition speed etc is very difficult.
King Steph (not so much the injury resistance)
Re: Most Athletic PG Ever?
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:25 am
by Dr Positivity
Westbrook. His wild motor was part of athleticism.