Draymond's all-time defensive ranking among PFs?

uberhikari · Post #1 » by **uberhikari** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:10 am

About 4 years ago there was a project that ranked the top 10 defensive players by position. The list for PFs was:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Bobby Jones
4. Dennis Rodman
5. Elvin Hayes
6. Dave DeBusschere
7. Draymond Green
8. Kevin McHale
9. Rasheed Wallace
10. Horace Grant

Since this list was made in 2018, has Draymond moved any higher?

70sFan · Post #2 » by **70sFan** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:26 am

Definitely, at this point I can see him as high as 3rd.

uberhikari · Post #3 » by **uberhikari** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:40 am

70sFan wrote:Definitely, at this point I can see him as high as 3rd.

Wow. Given your knowledge of the game that's very high praise.

Is it just that he now has more longevity or has your evaluation of Draymond's impact changed over the years?

70sFan · Post #4 » by **70sFan** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:47 am

uberhikari wrote:
70sFan wrote:Definitely, at this point I can see him as high as 3rd.

Wow. Given your knowledge of the game that's very high praise.

Is it just that he now has more longevity or has your evaluation of Draymond's impact changed over the years?

Mostly longevity aspect, but I also became more convinced into Green's defensive maestry. I always viewed him as top defender in the league (along with Gobert), but at this point I feel comfortable with top 15 ever discussion. I still don't love his longevity (only 7 relevant seasons), so maybe he's still behind longevity monsters like Hayes, but I think he peaked higher than all of them, maybe with the exception of Jones who also has mediocre longevity.

Amares · Post #5 » by **Amares** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:57 am

70sFan wrote:
uberhikari wrote:
70sFan wrote:Definitely, at this point I can see him as high as 3rd.

Wow. Given your knowledge of the game that's very high praise.

Is it just that he now has more longevity or has your evaluation of Draymond's impact changed over the years?

Mostly longevity aspect, but I also became more convinced into Green's defensive maestry. I always viewed him as top defender in the league (along with Gobert), but at this point I feel comfortable with top 15 ever discussion. I still don't love his longevity (only 7 relevant seasons), so maybe he's still behind longevity monsters like Hayes, but I think he peaked higher than all of them, maybe with the exception of Jones who also has mediocre longevity.

How do you see him when comparing to Rodman, for the peak and career?
I also see Draymond higher with ~top3 case, but also wonder how much this ranking changed since 2018, whether Gobert, Giannis or Embiid are relatively close to top 10 or not yet.

HeartBreakKid · Post #6 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:59 am

Amares wrote:
70sFan wrote:
uberhikari wrote:
Wow. Given your knowledge of the game that's very high praise.

Is it just that he now has more longevity or has your evaluation of Draymond's impact changed over the years?

Mostly longevity aspect, but I also became more convinced into Green's defensive maestry. I always viewed him as top defender in the league (along with Gobert), but at this point I feel comfortable with top 15 ever discussion. I still don't love his longevity (only 7 relevant seasons), so maybe he's still behind longevity monsters like Hayes, but I think he peaked higher than all of them, maybe with the exception of Jones who also has mediocre longevity.

How do you see him when comparing to Rodman, for the peak and career?
I also see Draymond higher with ~top3 case, but also wonder how much this ranking changed since 2018, whether Gobert, Giannis or Embiid are relatively close to top 10 or not yet.

This is a PF list so Embiid and Gobert wouldn't be there.

It'd be very difficult to argue Embiid as a top ten defender. He seemingly peaked defensively a while ago.

Looking at this list I think Giannis should be on it if we did a new edition.

70sFan · Post #7 » by **70sFan** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:52 am

Amares wrote:
70sFan wrote:
uberhikari wrote:
Wow. Given your knowledge of the game that's very high praise.

Is it just that he now has more longevity or has your evaluation of Draymond's impact changed over the years?

Mostly longevity aspect, but I also became more convinced into Green's defensive maestry. I always viewed him as top defender in the league (along with Gobert), but at this point I feel comfortable with top 15 ever discussion. I still don't love his longevity (only 7 relevant seasons), so maybe he's still behind longevity monsters like Hayes, but I think he peaked higher than all of them, maybe with the exception of Jones who also has mediocre longevity.

How do you see him when comparing to Rodman, for the peak and career?
I also see Draymond higher with ~top3 case, but also wonder how much this ranking changed since 2018, whether Gobert, Giannis or Embiid are relatively close to top 10 or not yet.

I think Green peaked clearly higher than Rodman and he's more consistent career-wise.

Giannis would definitely make the list now, but I still have him behind Green.

Gobert is on similar level to me, but he's a center. Embiid also is a center, but he's not even close to me. He had great potential, but during the last few seasons he's not elite defender anymore.

eminence · Post #8 » by **eminence** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:55 am

For peak I'd have him clearly top 3 on this list (on my own list Duncan is a C, so top 2, but that's whatever). And 7 notable seasons working on an 8th isn't great longevity, but it's getting into not bad territory either - eg Rodman had what, 11? Jones only had a 12 season career, with much of that as a 6th man (though obviously a very important one). I wouldn't say Draymond is hugely behind either in longevity and is just a class above as a defender for me, so I think he'd take #3 overall as well.

MyUniBroDavis · Post #9 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 2:11 pm

eminence wrote:For peak I'd have him clearly top 3 on this list (on my own list Duncan is a C, so top 2, but that's whatever). And 7 notable seasons working on an 8th isn't great longevity, but it's getting into not bad territory either - eg Rodman had what, 11? Jones only had a 12 season career, with much of that as a 6th man (though obviously a very important one). I wouldn't say Draymond is hugely behind either in longevity and is just a class above as a defender for me, so I think he'd take #3 overall as well.

Out of curiousity, how would you say his playoff defense ranks in comparison to guys like KG and TD, at least during that 15-19 prime

Always felt there was a playoff Draymond on D altho the term playoff draymond is funny

Peregrine01 · Post #10 » by **Peregrine01** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:32 pm

If you consider the way the game is played today, I think he's at the top with KG.

Colbinii · Post #11 » by **Colbinii** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:38 pm

I would have him as a clear #2 next to KG

Post #12 » by **Texas Chuck** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:40 pm

TIm Duncan is the best of all-time. I have Draymond right there with KG ahead of everyone else. He's that damn good.

LukaTheGOAT · Post #13 » by **LukaTheGOAT** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 4:00 pm

So, Ben Taylor on a podcast said he went back and watched 2015 Draymond Green in the playoffs and compared it to what he saw out of Green in 22. He mentioned that he thinks that Green in 22 is a better defender than he was in 15? Any thoughts on that?

70sFan · Post #14 » by **70sFan** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:12 pm

Colbinii wrote:I would have him as a clear #2 next to KG

I assume you have Duncan as a center?

VanWest82 · Post #15 » by **VanWest82** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:29 pm

Duncan and KG were centers masquerading as PFs because they had to play against Shaq. Draymond is #2 behind Rodman who was a better man defender.

ty 4191 · Post #16 » by **ty 4191** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:02 pm

70sFan wrote:Definitely, at this point I can see him as high as 3rd.

What data points/systems or personal perceptions and experiences are you using/do you use to compare players defensively?

ty 4191 · Post #17 » by **ty 4191** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:05 pm

Peregrine01 wrote:If you consider the way the game is played today, I think he's at the top with KG.

What does this mean? Can you please explain? Thanks.

70sFan · Post #18 » by **70sFan** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:22 pm

ty 4191 wrote:
70sFan wrote:Definitely, at this point I can see him as high as 3rd.

What data points/systems or personal perceptions and experiences are you using/do you use to compare players defensively?

Watching defensive possessions closely and looking at lineup stats. Eye test is still the most important for evaluating defense to me.

ty 4191 · Post #19 » by **ty 4191** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:48 pm

70sFan wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:
70sFan wrote:Definitely, at this point I can see him as high as 3rd.

What data points/systems or personal perceptions and experiences are you using/do you use to compare players defensively?

Watching defensive possessions closely and looking at lineup stats. Eye test is still the most important for evaluating defense to me.

Where do you find and extricate lineup stats? E.g., starter vs. bench, various players on or off the floor.

70sFan · Post #20 » by **70sFan** » Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:09 pm

ty 4191 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:
What data points/systems or personal perceptions and experiences are you using/do you use to compare players defensively?

Watching defensive possessions closely and looking at lineup stats. Eye test is still the most important for evaluating defense to me.

Where do you find and extricate lineup stats? E.g., starter vs. bench, various players on or off the floor.

I think pbp.com has the best access to lineups numbers. Basketball reference also have some basic stats though in team sections.