The Walton-to-Eaton Opening: Is it possible guards really deserved DPOY?

[Doctor MJ]

So, in general I think it's been clear in NBA basketball basically since its inception that the most valuable defenders tend to be bigs, and that the reason for this is tied to the fact that their size allows them to guard the basket - and thus affect all possessions - rather than just guard a man.

Hence, I've long been critical of early DPOY voting as oriented in the wrong (guards) direction. And while I still think there's true in this, it does make you ask the question of why they had this guard fixation early on.

When I look at the time leading up to the first DPOY in '82-83, as well as the first two DPOYs before Mark Eaton's breakthrough win in '84-85, I can't help but notice that there's a period of 6 full seasons where there's no clear-cut dominating defensive big man to me.

So, then, I'm asking y'all, from '78-79 to '83-84, who do you think the top defenders were? Is it possible they were guards?

To give some framework here, I've got two main guards on my mind: Dennis Johnson and Sidney Moncrief. Is someone wants to bring up other guards, they should feel free to, but Moncrief of course won those first two DPOYs, and I think DJ is the obvious guy to consider for the pre-DPOY years among the guards.

In terms of the accolades we do have:

'78-79 All-D 1st Team: Bobby Jones, Dennis Johnson, Kareem, Don Buse, Bob Dandridge
'79-80 All-D 1st Team: Bobby Jones, Dennis Johnson, Kareem, Don Buse, Michael Ray Richardson, Dan Roundfield
'80-81 All-D 1st Team: Bobby Jones, Dennis Johnson, Kareem, Michael Ray Richardson, Caldwell Jones
'81-82 All-D 1st Team: Bobby Jones, Dennis Johnson, Caldwell Jones, Dan Roundfield, Michael Cooper
'82-83 All-D 1st Team: Bobby Jones, Dennis Johnson, Dan Roundfield, Sidney Moncrief, Moses Malone, MoCheeks
'83-84 All-D 1st Team: Bobby Jones, Sidney Moncrief, Mo Cheeks, Michael Cooper, Tree Rollins

'82-83 DPOY: 1. (Sidney Moncrief) 2. (Tree Rollins) 3. (Larry Bird, Mo Cheeks, Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones).
'83-84 DPOY: 1. (Sidney Moncrief) 2. (Mark Eaton) 3. (Dennis Johnson) 4. (Mo Cheeks, Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones).

One more thing: I love me some Bobby Jones, and welcome people arguing for him, but do remember his limited minutes.

[OhayoKD]

Who are the competing bigs during this interim period?

[AEnigma]

If the question is who voters pick, I think 1979 goes to DJ pretty easily. Sonics were the #1 defence, he was their by reputation best defender, he availed himself well in the prior year’s finals… No one else I see being picked that year.

In 1980, trickier. Top three defences are the Kings, 76ers, and Sonics, but we love points per game in this era, so voters are also considering the Hawks and Blazers. So that is Sam Lacey (interesting but clearly not that respected) or Scott Wedman (ehh), Caldwell Jones (also not as respected) or Bobby Jones, DJ again, Tree Rollins (again not as respected) or Dan Roundfield, or Kermit Washington. Okay, well, we also like box numbers! Bobby has 2.8 stocks per game in 26 minutes a game, so that is pretty good (clearly not a prohibitive minutes load considering 1987 Cooper). The 76ers did get better defensively. Kareem leads in blocks and blocks per game and of course wins MVP comfortably, but neither the Lakers nor Kareem himself seem defensively better than the prior year. MRR leads in steals and steals per game, but the Knicks miss the playoffs and got worse on defence than the prior year. Tough year to decide! I have no clue, but I actually have a sneaking suspicion voters would be most compelled by the Blazers seemingly improving on defence (points per game!) despite only having Maurice Lucas for half a season, so I lean Kermit Washington Dan Roundfield because I forgot that Kermit was second team. Hawks were the #1 scoring defence, he played more than Bobby Jones… yeah, that makes more sense than Kermit, my bad.

1981, I think this goes back to DJ. The Suns were eighth in points per game in 1980 and then third upon DJ joining. Established as the best defensive guard, that makes for an easy narrative for a second win, especially as the Philadelphia Joneses likely cannibalise each other to some extent.

1982, the Hawks are the clear #1 points against defence, and with the 76ers dropping off in that metric, that seems like a relatively simply award funnel to Dan Roundfield.

Personally do not see any of those projected voter picks as particularly “wrong”. DJ and Moncrief are pretty much the only two guards I have felt could justifiably compete for DPoY, in large part because of the lack of dominant defensive bigs in their era. Does that mean they were actually worth more than Kareem or Bobby/Caldwell Jones or George Johnson or Tree Rollins? No, but it is a little easier to see the case. I do not think Pippen was outright better than Dikembe in 1995 or 1996, but I see his argument to win. I do not think Kawhi was the top defender in the league in 2015 or 2016, but I see his argument to win.

Fun question!

[Doctor MJ]

Who are the competing bigs during this interim period?

On the accolades list I gave, the following players might be considered bigs:

Bobby Jones
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Dan Roundfield
Caldwell Jones
Moses Malone
Tree Rollins
Mark Eaton

Feel free to bring up others.

[eminence]

Interesting question, haven't thought on it too much before. Tricky, cause so much of good team defensive play is good coaching - see the '83/'84 Knicks and their defensive leap under Hubie.

I think it's a reasonable premise overall, certainly not something I feel strongly isn't true. I think Jones probably played enough in '79 and DJ wasn't at the peak of his powers yet to give Bobby the edge there. I think Dawkins may have been another sleeper candidate a couple of years. In '80 I like the idea of awarding Bird for the ridiculous turnaround on both ends. Then DJ lands in Phoenix and one-ups even Buse/Westphal (pretty good defenders themselves) putting forth a strong claim those seasons. I do think Moncrief was a pretty solid choice his seasons as well. Young Buck Williams deserved some love from the voters imo. McNasty might be more remembered for dirty plays, but a tough defender too.

[Narigo]

79: George Johnson
80: Caldwell Jones/Cheeks/Jones
81: Caldwell Jones/Cheeks/Jones
82: Jack Sikma

[Doctor MJ]

Young Buck Williams deserved some love from the voters imo. McNasty might be more remembered for dirty plays, but a tough defender too.

Love that you bring him up. He's someone I think was quite underrated by All-D voters at this time. I'll say that in my assessment, both Buck & Jack Sikma make in my Top 3 in this time frame despite no All-D love, but neither one am I comfortable actually advocating for either in the top spot.

[eminence]

Young Buck Williams deserved some love from the voters imo. McNasty might be more remembered for dirty plays, but a tough defender too.

Love that you bring him up. He's someone I think was quite underrated by All-D voters at this time. I'll say that in my assessment, both Buck & Jack Sikma make in my Top 3 in this time frame despite no All-D love, but neither one am I comfortable actually advocating for either in the top spot.

Makes sense, though I have a bit of trouble going too high on both DJ and Sikma at the same time.

[Doctor MJ]

79: George Johnson
80: Caldwell Jones/Cheeks/Jones
81: Caldwell Jones/Cheeks/Jones
82: Jack Sikma

Good Johnson get mentioned. Led the league in blocked shots 3 times.

With your Jones/Cheeks/Jones trio, I definitely get wanting to praise them all, but who would you pick among them? and, do you actually think Cheeks has a case?

[Doctor MJ]

Young Buck Williams deserved some love from the voters imo. McNasty might be more remembered for dirty plays, but a tough defender too.

Love that you bring him up. He's someone I think was quite underrated by All-D voters at this time. I'll say that in my assessment, both Buck & Jack Sikma make in my Top 3 in this time frame despite no All-D love, but neither one am I comfortable actually advocating for either in the top spot.

Makes sense, though I have a bit of trouble going too high on both DJ and Sikma at the same time.

Ha, well I'm not comfortable with my options in this period, period, which is why I'd like to hear the thoughts of others.

This 6 year stretch where there's no clear cut frontcourt-only top tier is unlike any other in NBA history so far as I can tell, and that makes it a place where we have to dig a bit deeper than in most years.

To further hammer in the weirdness here:

Bill Walton was born in 1952 and Mark Eaton was born in 1957. Only a 5 year gap between them. Even if there weren't any other players born in that period who were capable of mega-defensive impact, that short of a gap typically would not be long enough to let anyone else earn the prize.

But of course, Walton's last prime year came at age 25, and Eaton is an NBA rookie at 26. The years in between are years that I expect these two guys could have been the best defenders in the world if circumstances had let them, but instead, there was a gaping whole.

[Doctor MJ]

Interesting question, haven't thought on it too much before. Tricky, cause so much of good team defensive play is good coaching - see the '83/'84 Knicks and their defensive leap under Hubie.

I think it's a reasonable premise overall, certainly not something I feel strongly isn't true. I think Jones probably played enough in '79 and DJ wasn't at the peak of his powers yet to give Bobby the edge there. I think Dawkins may have been another sleeper candidate a couple of years. In '80 I like the idea of awarding Bird for the ridiculous turnaround on both ends. Then DJ lands in Phoenix and one-ups even Buse/Westphal (pretty good defenders themselves) putting forth a strong claim those seasons. I do think Moncrief was a pretty solid choice his seasons as well. Young Buck Williams deserved some love from the voters imo. McNasty might be more remembered for dirty plays, but a tough defender too.

Let me go back and put focus back on Bird:

I think Bird is someone who needs to be seriously considered, and that question alone is worth a thread certainly, but if Bird were to deserve DPOY, that to me still fits in within the prompt of Walton-to-Eaton, because I'd imagine we agree that Bird was an all-time defensive impact guy.

He was however the lead defensive rebounder, lead thief, a threat to block shots, to go along with as quick and active of a brain as we've ever seen in the game, and a great youthful motor.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

So, in general I think it's been clear in NBA basketball basically since its inception that the most valuable defenders tend to be bigs, and that the reason for this is tied to the fact that their size allows them to guard the basket - and thus affect all possessions - rather than just guard a man.

Hence, I've long been critical of early DPOY voting as oriented in the wrong (guards) direction. And while I still think there's true in this, it does make you ask the question of why they had this guard fixation early on.

When I look at the time leading up to the first DPOY in '82-83, as well as the first two DPOYs before Mark Eaton's breakthrough win in '84-85, I can't help but notice that there's a period of 6 full seasons where there's no clear-cut dominating defensive big man to me.

So, then, I'm asking y'all, from '78-79 to '83-84, who do you think the top defenders were? Is it possible they were guards?

To give some framework here, I've got two main guards on my mind: Dennis Johnson and Sidney Moncrief. Is someone wants to bring up other guards, they should feel free to, but Moncrief of course won those first two DPOYs, and I think DJ is the obvious guy to consider for the pre-DPOY years among the guards.

In terms of the accolades we do have:

'78-79 All-D 1st Team: Bobby Jones, Dennis Johnson, Kareem, Don Buse, Bob Dandridge
'79-80 All-D 1st Team: Bobby Jones, Dennis Johnson, Kareem, Don Buse, Michael Ray Richardson, Dan Roundfield
'80-81 All-D 1st Team: Bobby Jones, Dennis Johnson, Kareem, Michael Ray Richardson, Caldwell Jones
'81-82 All-D 1st Team: Bobby Jones, Dennis Johnson, Caldwell Jones, Dan Roundfield, Michael Cooper
'82-83 All-D 1st Team: Bobby Jones, Dennis Johnson, Dan Roundfield, Sidney Moncrief, Moses Malone, MoCheeks
'83-84 All-D 1st Team: Bobby Jones, Sidney Moncrief, Mo Cheeks, Michael Cooper, Tree Rollins

'82-83 DPOY: 1. (Sidney Moncrief) 2. (Tree Rollins) 3. (Larry Bird, Mo Cheeks, Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones).
'83-84 DPOY: 1. (Sidney Moncrief) 2. (Mark Eaton) 3. (Dennis Johnson) 4. (Mo Cheeks, Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones).

One more thing: I love me some Bobby Jones, and welcome people arguing for him, but do remember his limited minutes.

From my early 1980s Celtic fan point of view, I have Calwell Jones a bit ahead of Bobby Jones. Caldwell Jones gets little love.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Interesting question, haven't thought on it too much before. Tricky, cause so much of good team defensive play is good coaching - see the '83/'84 Knicks and their defensive leap under Hubie.

I think it's a reasonable premise overall, certainly not something I feel strongly isn't true. I think Jones probably played enough in '79 and DJ wasn't at the peak of his powers yet to give Bobby the edge there. I think Dawkins may have been another sleeper candidate a couple of years. In '80 I like the idea of awarding Bird for the ridiculous turnaround on both ends. Then DJ lands in Phoenix and one-ups even Buse/Westphal (pretty good defenders themselves) putting forth a strong claim those seasons. I do think Moncrief was a pretty solid choice his seasons as well. Young Buck Williams deserved some love from the voters imo. McNasty might be more remembered for dirty plays, but a tough defender too.

Let me go back and put focus back on Bird:

I think Bird is someone who needs to be seriously considered, and that question alone is worth a thread certainly, but if Bird were to deserve DPOY, that to me still fits in within the prompt of Walton-to-Eaton, because I'd imagine we agree that Bird was an all-time defensive impact guy.

He was however the lead defensive rebounder, lead thief, a threat to block shots, to go along with as quick and active of a brain as we've ever seen in the game, and a great youthful motor.

Bird was a great team defender and a good man to man defender against power forwards and Bird usually guarded power forwards. Bird was a a poor man to man defende against small forwards.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Who are the competing bigs during this interim period?

On the accolades list I gave, the following players might be considered bigs:

Bobby Jones
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Dan Roundfield
Caldwell Jones
Moses Malone
Tree Rollins
Mark Eaton

Feel free to bring up others.

Artis Gilmore prior to Eaton joining the Jazz.
Gilmore is born in 1949. I better read page 1

Rich Kelley who I thought played good defense and Maurice Lucas and Robert Parish who took the Celtics defense to another level are all born between Walton and Eaton.
Cedric Maxwell, the Dr J stopper on the Celtics was in that time period.

Michael Ray Richardson was the real deal. He might not have been as good on fundamental defense as he was on flashy defense but he was a disrupter.

Terry Tyler impressed me as a defender.


I did not think that Moses was special as a defender.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

1981 all defensive team votes
Actual All-Defense voting that year, out of a potential 44 points:
Dennis Johnson: 42
Bobby Jones: 35
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 31
Micheal Ray Richardson: 26
Caldwell Jones: 24
Quinn Buckner: 20
Dan Roundfield: 19
Kermit Washington: 15
Dudley Bradley: 9
Michael Cooper: 9
George Johnson: 8

[Ein Sof]

No

[trex_8063]

Hence, I've long been critical of early DPOY voting as oriented in the wrong (guards) direction. And while I still think there's true in this, it does make you ask the question of why they had this guard fixation early on.

Personally, I think it's a manifestation of what I wrote in my vote-posts of the #4 and #5 threads of the last Top 100 Project (which in both threads is on the first page, I believe): "The Curious Case of Timothy Duncan [section 2]". Simple as that.

[Doctor MJ]

Hence, I've long been critical of early DPOY voting as oriented in the wrong (guards) direction. And while I still think there's true in this, it does make you ask the question of why they had this guard fixation early on.

Personally, I think it's a manifestation of what I wrote in my vote-posts of the #4 and #5 threads of the last Top 100 Project (which in both threads is on the first page, I believe): "The Curious Case of Timothy Duncan [section 2]". Simple as that.

I don’t recall what you said back then.

You bringing up Duncan makes me think about Bowen getting more DPOY love at the time despite Duncan sure seeming to be the actual defensive star of the team, which I tend to think is because of the attention Bowen got as a defensive specialist while Duncan got promoted MVP - along with the fact Duncan didn’t have the most eye popping defensive box score. Feels like I must be missing a nuance though, so please do expound.

One question I have though that needs to be answered if we’re talking about a timeless truth is,

Why the 6 year interval here an nowhen else?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Owly]

Hence, I've long been critical of early DPOY voting as oriented in the wrong (guards) direction. And while I still think there's true in this, it does make you ask the question of why they had this guard fixation early on.

Personally, I think it's a manifestation of what I wrote in my vote-posts of the #4 and #5 threads of the last Top 100 Project (which in both threads is on the first page, I believe): "The Curious Case of Timothy Duncan [section 2]". Simple as that.

I don’t recall what you said back then.

You bringing up Duncan makes me think about Bowen getting more DPOY love at the time despite Duncan sure seeming to be the actual defensive star of the team, which I tend to think is because of the attention Bowen got as a defensive specialist while Duncan got promoted MVP - along with the fact Duncan didn’t have the most eye popping defensive box score. Feels like I must be missing a nuance though, so please do expound.

One question I have though that needs to be answered if we’re talking about a timeless truth is,

Why the 6 year interval here an nowhen else?

Since there's allusions but no post/link (core is most don't relate to bigs, possibility of grading on a curve where size isn't skill and is discounted). Doesn't necessarily account for what changed (the truth or disparity between small and big candidates got more glaring? better informed, more coverage seeing media?).

2. He’s so bloody tall!
Both casual fans and media tend to not identify with the bigs.

In the 90s when the mythology of Jordan and his indisputable GOATness was being established, in casual discussions about who was 2nd-greatest [‘cause you didn’t dare question who was THE greatest], it almost invariably revolved around two candidates: Magic and Bird. Kareem would occasionally be name-dropped (though usually as more of a dark horse candidate). Wilt would RARELY be mentioned; and Russell was mentioned not at all.

What do these latter four individuals have in common? They were all bigs.

I think it’s partly because we can maybe fantasize about ourselves dominating a game like the smaller guys, doing things like dribbling, shooting from the outside, and passing, etc.

Most of us can’t imagine controlling a game with the [decidedly less sexy] acts of changing [or just deterring] shots at the rim, securing rebounds, or being a threat in the post.

99.9% of us are nowhere near big enough to even imagine what that’s like. So we don’t identify with the guys for whom that’s their bread and butter.

And perhaps there’s some more subtle subconscious bias against bigs, ingrained in us from media.
Certainly in literature, folklore, and tv/movies, “giants” are almost invariably portrayed in an evil or at least unflattering way: the giant in Jack and the Beanstalk (bad guy); ogres in multiple sources; the giants in Game of Thrones are portrayed as ugly, brutish, and possibly of lower intelligence; the Lenny character in Steinbeck’s Of Mice and Men [who has been parodied in Looney Tunes] is a pitifully simple-minded oaf who doesn’t understand his own strength---->the “big and dumb” motif has been repeated in many shows/movies, actually. Etc etc…..

Whatever the reason(s), many don’t wish to sympathize with the NBA’s great big men.

If two players are of basically equal dominance on the court, but one is 6’6” and the other is 7’1”.......the mainstream will almost unanimously crown the shorter guy as the “greater” player.
I’ve even had discussions with posters here who have explicitly stated they don’t much credit guys who seem to rely on their size and/or only seem to come to some degree of dominance thru being so bloody huge.
They say it’s “harder” for a guy to dominate the game when he doesn’t have that advantage of basically being a giant.
They say they’re more impressed with a player who can achieve dominance thru something other than that kind of outlier height (though they never seem to want to walk all the way down this path of reasoning to proclaiming someone like Muggsy Bogues one of the most remarkable/best players ever; there’s apparently an arbitrary stop-point of non-tallness).

I could just as arbitrarily say I’m more impressed with the [tall] player being able to achieve that same level of dominance while being so much slower. It’s no different.

As to main question, my own mainly otoh thoughts ... some of this depends on what part of time we're focusing on (from Walton going down and functionally part time or the guard era of the awards starting '83, in which Eaton '85 is a blip and Eaton only ends the guard era in '89 (and even then is followed by Rodman two years, whilst he's starting as a 3, though he is regardless a more credible choice and I think playing some 4). I guess the full post tilts to the former but with the award element of the discussion ...
1) Happy to see Cheeks got a mention as a guard candidate. Otoh (and with more solid evidence) he and Moncrief are the better guard candidates.

2) It is possible ... Well see above depending on year first for context. But, is it possible in a given year a "small" might have deserved it (or granting differing criteria, been a very reasonable choice), yes. Do I look at picks like Robertson and think voters might not have been making nuanced, informed picks ...yes.

3) It is a bit of a down period for top end production rim protector bigs. George Johnson and Rollins aren't playing that much. Kareem's probably expending more of his effort on the other end. Gilmore isn't on great teams and probably isn't as visually impressive as when he was younger and the blocks are more solid than spectacular. We don't have an outright monster starter 30 minutes guy (Eaton by '85) or an agile superstar (Olajuwon, Robinson) or something in between (Mutombo, Wallace). But then for the later 80s two of the superstar defense oriented bigs of the 90s arrive and still the awards don't come.

4) Maybe agile, semi-protector whilst also doing other stuff forwards (Jones, Roundfield, B Williams, Nance) might have been among the top defenders.

[eminence]

It is interesting that there was a seeming delay even after the Eaton and next great defensive bigs arrive.