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And why did Duncan outplay him so badly? Drob wasn’t even available for the 1st 2 games either.

Shaq averaged around 21 ppg, and below 50 ts%. Didn’t score 30 points in a single game. It’s head scratching considering he did just fine against the same front court in 2001 and 2003.

Was Shaq injured, or did Duncan have one of the best lockdown series against Shaq that we’ve ever seen?

No-more-rings wrote:And why did Duncan outplay him so badly? Drob wasn’t even available for the 1st 2 games either.

Shaq averaged around 21 ppg, and below 50 ts%. Didn’t score 30 points in a single game. It’s head scratching considering he did just fine against the same front court in 2001 and 2003.

Was Shaq injured, or did Duncan have one of the best lockdown series against Shaq that we’ve ever seen?

i watched game 5 a few months ago so i can only talk about that game. it actually played out a lot how i remember those series. note the youtube video skipped the 2nd quarter, where duncan apparently had a double double, but irrelevant to the larger story.

something definitely felt off with shaq. he just did not seem like the ferocious shaq of other years. but while it's possible duncan was having an off-ball impact that i wasn't paying a ton of attention to, in terms of actually guarding shaq, that basically didn't happen.

again, it skipped the 2nd quarter, but duncan didn't guard shaq in the 1st quarter. and shaq didn't guard duncan. then, about midway through the 3rd, duncan guarded shaq for a possession. he picked up his 3rd foul. one possession later, he guarded shaq. he picked up his 4th foul. strategy shelved until the mid-4th. duncan guards shaq for one more possession. picks up his 5th foul. i think he finally had a non-foul possession in the late 4th (also fouled the crap out of someone on a layup but wasn't called for his 6th).

i said it played out a lot how i remembered and that had more to do with shaq on duncan. duncan got 34 and 25 in this game. a monster game by any measure. but shaq started guarding duncan in the mid-3rd. and from what i recall, duncan was something like 2-8 or 2-9 (maybe 1-8 but that sounds too horrible) with shaq guarding him. got blocked straight up by shaq at least twice and i think thrice. in fact, one of the made shots was after shaq blocked him and the ball just bounced back to duncan and then he laid it in. it felt like that always happened in the 2001-2002 series. duncan would get along just fine, then shaq was put on duncan and that was that. the fact this game played out so much like that makes me think i wasn't remembering it that incorrectly.

No-more-rings wrote:And why did Duncan outplay him so badly? Drob wasn’t even available for the 1st 2 games either.

Shaq averaged around 21 ppg, and below 50 ts%. Didn’t score 30 points in a single game. It’s head scratching considering he did just fine against the same front court in 2001 and 2003.

Was Shaq injured, or did Duncan have one of the best lockdown series against Shaq that we’ve ever seen?

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2002/05/06/shaq-a-cut-above-center-overcomes-two-injuries-lifts-lakers/62096195007/

http://a.espncdn.com/nba/playoffs2002/s/2002/0508/1380174.html

Shaq had multiple injuries going on during that 2002 series. Arthritic toe and shooting hand finger laceration w/ stitches suffered during Gm 1 were the most serious - or at least most reported on. Also a cut to the left wrist before Gm 1, though I doubt that affected much.

Also, Duncan definitely outplayed Shaq for the series, but if you go game by game, it wasn't handily. Shaq outplayed him in two games in the series. To be honest, statistically, it wasn't either of their best performances for a series during that era. Considering they both were going through adversity, however, I would say I was impressed with both for their willingness and competitiveness in a slow, ugly, defensive environment.

Like noted above, Shaq was banged up, stitches in one hand and the other wrist, freezing in his finger, bad toe and a sprained ankle.

No Duncan wasn’t the primary defender on Shaq.

As noted above, Shaq struggled with health problems in that time, although I when we look at how he did before and after the 2nd round, I find it hard to believe that he magically healed all his problems within such a short period of time:

1st round: 25.4 inflation adjusted pp75 on +8.0 rTS%
2nd round: 24.7 inflation adjusted pp75 on -0.8 rTS%
3rd round: 29.9 inflation adjusted pp75 on +5.9 rTS%

About Duncan vs Shaq matchup. I recently watched this series strongly focused on Duncan. I have tracked Shaq's scoring/assisting/turnover possessions against Duncan coverage:

Game 1: 4/11 FG, 3/4 FT, 1 ast, 1 tov
Game 2: 5/9 FG, 3/6 FT, 3 ast, 1 tov
Game 3: 5/8 FG, 2/2 FT, 1 ast, 0 tov
Game 4: 2/3 FG, 0/0 FT, 1 ast, 0 tov
Game 5: 3/8 FG, 4/6 FT, 0 ast, 1 tov

Overall: 10 ppg on 48.7 FG%, 66.7 FT% and 53.3 TS%, 1.2 apg and 0.6 tov

Duncan didn't really guard Shaq much in game 4 and unsurprisingly, it was the only game when Robinson played big minutes (34 min). In every other game, Duncan played significant periods of time on Shaq, often being the only Spur who could slow him down. I mean, excluding game 4 Duncan limited Shaq to 47 FG% without secondary big to help him, on 7.2 FGA so it's not a small sample.

The only reason why Duncan couldn't stay longer on Shaq is because he was the only Spurs offensive creator and he did pick up 9 fouls in these 4 games on Shaq (2.3 per game) and Spurs couldn't afford Duncan playing less than 40+mpg.

So no, Duncan didn't shut down Shaq by himself and O'Neal was definitely slowed down by injuries. It's also not true that Duncan didn't guard Shaq a lot, because he did and had considerable success.

Who guarded Shaq the most outside of Duncan?

70sFan wrote:As noted above, Shaq struggled with health problems in that time, although I when we look at how he did before and after the 2nd round, I find it hard to believe that he magically healed all his problems within such a short period of time:

1st round: 25.4 inflation adjusted pp75 on +8.0 rTS%
2nd round: 24.7 inflation adjusted pp75 on -0.8 rTS%
3rd round: 29.9 inflation adjusted pp75 on +5.9 rTS%

About Duncan vs Shaq matchup. I recently watched this series strongly focused on Duncan. I have tracked Shaq's scoring/assisting/turnover possessions against Duncan coverage:

Game 1: 4/11 FG, 3/4 FT, 1 ast, 1 tov
Game 2: 5/9 FG, 3/6 FT, 3 ast, 1 tov
Game 3: 5/8 FG, 2/2 FT, 1 ast, 0 tov
Game 4: 2/3 FG, 0/0 FT, 1 ast, 0 tov
Game 5: 3/8 FG, 4/6 FT, 0 ast, 1 tov

Overall: 10 ppg on 48.7 FG%, 66.7 FT% and 53.3 TS%, 1.2 apg and 0.6 tov

Duncan didn't really guard Shaq much in game 4 and unsurprisingly, it was the only game when Robinson played big minutes (34 min). In every other game, Duncan played significant periods of time on Shaq, often being the only Spur who could slow him down. I mean, excluding game 4 Duncan limited Shaq to 47 FG% without secondary big to help him, on 7.2 FGA so it's not a small sample.

The only reason why Duncan couldn't stay longer on Shaq is because he was the only Spurs offensive creator and he did pick up 9 fouls in these 4 games on Shaq (2.3 per game) and Spurs couldn't afford Duncan playing less than 40+mpg.

So no, Duncan didn't shut down Shaq by himself and O'Neal was definitely slowed down by injuries. It's also not true that Duncan didn't guard Shaq a lot, because he did and had considerable success.

Ok I’m going to have to go back but Malik Rose was the guy I remember guarding Shaq. A quick google result just showed

They Have Their Doubts About O'Neal
May 10, 2002 12 AM PT
So Shaquille O'Neal is really hurting? The bad toe, the cut finger, and now a sprained left ankle too.

Well, the Spurs aren’t exactly calling O'Neal a big fibber, but they’d like to see more proof.

Malik Rose has been guarding the Lakers’ 7-foot-1 center, and he was skeptical Thursday of how real the injuries are.

“He still throws it through the rim hard, so I don’t think his hand is bothering him at all,” said Rose, who has been sharing the O'Neal patrol with Mark Bryant and Tim Duncan while Spur center David Robinson recovers from an aggravated disk in his lower back.

Frosty wrote:

70sFan wrote:As noted above, Shaq struggled with health problems in that time, although I when we look at how he did before and after the 2nd round, I find it hard to believe that he magically healed all his problems within such a short period of time:

1st round: 25.4 inflation adjusted pp75 on +8.0 rTS%
2nd round: 24.7 inflation adjusted pp75 on -0.8 rTS%
3rd round: 29.9 inflation adjusted pp75 on +5.9 rTS%

About Duncan vs Shaq matchup. I recently watched this series strongly focused on Duncan. I have tracked Shaq's scoring/assisting/turnover possessions against Duncan coverage:

Game 1: 4/11 FG, 3/4 FT, 1 ast, 1 tov
Game 2: 5/9 FG, 3/6 FT, 3 ast, 1 tov
Game 3: 5/8 FG, 2/2 FT, 1 ast, 0 tov
Game 4: 2/3 FG, 0/0 FT, 1 ast, 0 tov
Game 5: 3/8 FG, 4/6 FT, 0 ast, 1 tov

Overall: 10 ppg on 48.7 FG%, 66.7 FT% and 53.3 TS%, 1.2 apg and 0.6 tov

Duncan didn't really guard Shaq much in game 4 and unsurprisingly, it was the only game when Robinson played big minutes (34 min). In every other game, Duncan played significant periods of time on Shaq, often being the only Spur who could slow him down. I mean, excluding game 4 Duncan limited Shaq to 47 FG% without secondary big to help him, on 7.2 FGA so it's not a small sample.

The only reason why Duncan couldn't stay longer on Shaq is because he was the only Spurs offensive creator and he did pick up 9 fouls in these 4 games on Shaq (2.3 per game) and Spurs couldn't afford Duncan playing less than 40+mpg.

So no, Duncan didn't shut down Shaq by himself and O'Neal was definitely slowed down by injuries. It's also not true that Duncan didn't guard Shaq a lot, because he did and had considerable success.

Ok I’m going to have to go back but Malik Rose was the guy I remember guarding Shaq. A quick google result just showed

They Have Their Doubts About O'Neal
May 10, 2002 12 AM PT
So Shaquille O'Neal is really hurting? The bad toe, the cut finger, and now a sprained left ankle too.

Well, the Spurs aren’t exactly calling O'Neal a big fibber, but they’d like to see more proof.

Malik Rose has been guarding the Lakers’ 7-foot-1 center, and he was skeptical Thursday of how real the injuries are.

“He still throws it through the rim hard, so I don’t think his hand is bothering him at all,” said Rose, who has been sharing the O'Neal patrol with Mark Bryant and Tim Duncan while Spur center David Robinson recovers from an aggravated disk in his lower back.

Malik Rose played 26.6 mpg in that series. Even if you assume he spent all his minutes on Shaq (which is not true, though he did spend a big part of it on him), that would give us another 21.4 mpg left, which is a very significant time.

I'm not saying Duncan was Shaq's defender for 35+mpg, he wasn't but he played very significant part of the series on him. The sheer fact that he defended over 40% of Shaq FG attempts should tell you that.

No-more-rings wrote:And why did Duncan outplay him so badly? Drob wasn’t even available for the 1st 2 games either.

Shaq averaged around 21 ppg, and below 50 ts%. Didn’t score 30 points in a single game. It’s head scratching considering he did just fine against the same front court in 2001 and 2003.

Was Shaq injured, or did Duncan have one of the best lockdown series against Shaq that we’ve ever seen?

Even if he was supposedly ailing.....yet another series Shaq had to follow Kobes lead to beat the only threat in the league to him talent wise those years in Tim Duncan.

Funny how he had absolutely monster series vs Portland before the WCSF and then in the WCF vs Sacramento and the Finals vs New Jersey and nobody talked of him carrying injuries.

Must've healed up at some point in those playoffs outside of facing the Spurs

Was Duncan actually just better than Shaq in 2002, period?

Lost92Bricks wrote:Was Duncan actually just better than Shaq in 2002, period?

Similar level, but yeah probably.

boi was hurt

Duncan averaged 27 per 75 on 43% eFG; 51%TS in the 2nd Round. The Spurs had the lead at the start of the 4th Quarter of all 5 games and only managed to win 1 game.

Duncan outplayed Shaq slightly, but he wasn’t exactly impressive on Offensive.

MiamiBulls wrote:Duncan averaged 27 per 75 on 43% eFG; 51%TS in the 2nd Round. The Spurs had the lead at the start of the 4th Quarter of all 5 games and only managed to win 1 game.

Duncan outplayed Shaq slightly, but he wasn’t exactly impressive on Offensive.

Duncan had absolutely no offensive help from his teammates and was forced to play whole games with absurd load on both ends of the floor. A big part of why Spurs struggled so much in 4th quarters is that Duncan just couldn't do that for 48 minutes without getting tired - nobody could.

Duncan was still better than Shaq on both ends of the floor while having absolutely insane load, just because he didn't have fancy efficiency numbers doesn't mean that's not impressive.

70sFan wrote:

MiamiBulls wrote:Duncan averaged 27 per 75 on 43% eFG; 51%TS in the 2nd Round. The Spurs had the lead at the start of the 4th Quarter of all 5 games and only managed to win 1 game.

Duncan outplayed Shaq slightly, but he wasn’t exactly impressive on Offensive.

Duncan had absolutely no offensive help from his teammates and was forced to play whole games with absurd load on both ends of the floor. A big part of why Spurs struggled so much in 4th quarters is that Duncan just couldn't do that for 48 minutes without getting tired - nobody could.

Duncan was still better than Shaq on both ends of the floor while having absolutely insane load, just because he didn't have fancy efficiency numbers doesn't mean that's not impressive.

td was better on o? ig it make sense but that sounds crazy

ShaqAttac wrote:

70sFan wrote:

MiamiBulls wrote:Duncan averaged 27 per 75 on 43% eFG; 51%TS in the 2nd Round. The Spurs had the lead at the start of the 4th Quarter of all 5 games and only managed to win 1 game.

Duncan outplayed Shaq slightly, but he wasn’t exactly impressive on Offensive.

Duncan had absolutely no offensive help from his teammates and was forced to play whole games with absurd load on both ends of the floor. A big part of why Spurs struggled so much in 4th quarters is that Duncan just couldn't do that for 48 minutes without getting tired - nobody could.

Duncan was still better than Shaq on both ends of the floor while having absolutely insane load, just because he didn't have fancy efficiency numbers doesn't mean that's not impressive.

td was better on o? ig it make sense but that sounds crazy

Not overall, but in this series that's my thought. Duncan had some rough games as well, but overall he impacted the game more on offensive end.

70sFan wrote:

ShaqAttac wrote:

70sFan wrote:Duncan had absolutely no offensive help from his teammates and was forced to play whole games with absurd load on both ends of the floor. A big part of why Spurs struggled so much in 4th quarters is that Duncan just couldn't do that for 48 minutes without getting tired - nobody could.

Duncan was still better than Shaq on both ends of the floor while having absolutely insane load, just because he didn't have fancy efficiency numbers doesn't mean that's not impressive.

td was better on o? ig it make sense but that sounds crazy

Not overall, but in this series that's my thought. Duncan had some rough games as well, but overall he impacted the game more on offensive end.

no i got u. it just annoying every time i come here, ppl say shaq was actually worse than i think

ShaqAttac wrote:

70sFan wrote:

ShaqAttac wrote:td was better on o? ig it make sense but that sounds crazy

Not overall, but in this series that's my thought. Duncan had some rough games as well, but overall he impacted the game more on offensive end.

no i got u. it just annoying every time i come here, ppl say shaq was actually worse than i think

Honestly, Shaq's probably a little underrated on the forum. He was absolutely a dominant beast and I'd have him 5th all-time. It's just that Duncan was even more underrated. He's a top 5 defender of all-time and was also a lot more of an offensive force at his peak than people remember. With his incredible longevity, I think he's a solid 3rd.

70sFan wrote:

MiamiBulls wrote:Duncan averaged 27 per 75 on 43% eFG; 51%TS in the 2nd Round. The Spurs had the lead at the start of the 4th Quarter of all 5 games and only managed to win 1 game.

Duncan outplayed Shaq slightly, but he wasn’t exactly impressive on Offensive.

Duncan had absolutely no offensive help from his teammates and was forced to play whole games with absurd load on both ends of the floor. A big part of why Spurs struggled so much in 4th quarters is that Duncan just couldn't do that for 48 minutes without getting tired - nobody could.

Duncan was still better than Shaq on both ends of the floor while having absolutely insane load, just because he didn't have fancy efficiency numbers doesn't mean that's not impressive.

It's crazy how bad the Spurs' supporting cast was in 2002. No Ginobili yet. David Robinson playing a total of 75 minutes in the biggest series of the season. The only real co-star Duncan had was a 19 year old rookie Tony Parker who averaged 9 points and 4 assists on .497 TS% during the regular season before starting to put it together a bit in the playoffs. Duncan was the offense and the defense. For the regular season and postseason combined, Duncan scored 2337 points and next on the team was Steve Smith with 998. I think he really was the best player in the league that season and was just playing with an Oscar or KG-esque horrible supporting cast. It's a miracle he dragged them as far as he did.

iggymcfrack wrote:

70sFan wrote:

MiamiBulls wrote:Duncan averaged 27 per 75 on 43% eFG; 51%TS in the 2nd Round. The Spurs had the lead at the start of the 4th Quarter of all 5 games and only managed to win 1 game.

Duncan outplayed Shaq slightly, but he wasn’t exactly impressive on Offensive.

Duncan had absolutely no offensive help from his teammates and was forced to play whole games with absurd load on both ends of the floor. A big part of why Spurs struggled so much in 4th quarters is that Duncan just couldn't do that for 48 minutes without getting tired - nobody could.

Duncan was still better than Shaq on both ends of the floor while having absolutely insane load, just because he didn't have fancy efficiency numbers doesn't mean that's not impressive.

It's crazy how bad the Spurs' supporting cast was in 2002. No Ginobili yet. David Robinson playing a total of 75 minutes in the biggest series of the season. The only real co-star Duncan had was a 19 year old rookie Tony Parker who averaged 9 points and 4 assists on .497 TS% during the regular season before starting to put it together a bit in the playoffs. Duncan was the offense and the defense. For the regular season and postseason combined, Duncan scored 2337 points and next on the team was Steve Smith with 998. I think he really was the best player in the league that season and was just playing with an Oscar or KG-esque horrible supporting cast. It's a miracle he dragged them as far as he did.

The 2002 season of Duncan is so underrated even if he has won the MVP.Maybe this is because of 2003 but it was still a great season for Duncan