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How many years of Kareem would you take over current Nikola Jokic?

Way too early to make such comparison for this year.

For the last year, I'd take probably around 5 Kareem seasons over 2022 Jokic: 1971, 1972, 1974, 1976 and 1977. 1973, 1979 and 1980 are arguable.

70sFan wrote:Way too early to make such comparison for this year.

For the last year, I'd take probably around 5 Kareem seasons over 2022 Jokic: 1971, 1972, 1974, 1976 and 1977. 1973, 1979 and 1980 are arguable.

Basically how I see it though idk if we are comparing based on their own era or how they perform in the current one(in which case we might as well ask how many Kareem seasons if Jokic is put in his era).

I think Jokic is the superior offensive force, and I don’t think his defense is as detrimental as some others think..but still Kareem is undoubtedly a much better defender. Maybe that gap is smaller today, but that’s obviously unknowable. If we’re using the past few years as a baseline to judge Jokic in the playoffs you’d still have to take pretty much any prime year, where Kareem was his normal dominant self in the playoffs so probably like 6-8 seasons.

I feel comfortable going with 1971-74 and 1977, with strong arguments from 1978-80 and 1976. Maybe even his rookie year if you look that much into playoffs in a vacuum, but I do not know if I would go that far.

I think Jokic is the superior offensive force

From 1970-71 to 1972-73, Jabbar shot 11% better on 2s (57%) than did just the league average C (46%) while scoring 32.3 pts/g . No other C those 3 years averaged even 22 pts/g. That is pure dominance.

And that was against some great Cs playing at the time, like Chamberlain, Thurmond, Bellamy, Dave Cowens, Wes Unseld, Bob Lanier, and Willis Reed.

This and the previous 2 seasons Jokic scored 26.4 pts/g, less than Embiid, not much more than KAT, while shooting 63% on 2s when the league average C shot 59% on 2s, just 4% better.

Jabbar then his next 8 seasons scored 26 pts/g, far more total points than any other C (some 4000+ more), shooting 7% more on 2s than just the league average C.

and I don’t think his defense is as detrimental as some others think

From 2015-16 to 2021-22 Denver ranked just 22nd (9th worst) in the league in defensive efficiency (110.3 pts/100poss allowed), and those 7 seasons allowed the 5th highest/worst 2pt FG% (52.7%). And Jokic played - by far - the most minutes on Denver all that time (more than 2000 minutes than any other Nuggets player).

Not surprisingly Jokic was not named to any all-defensive teams, and did not receive even a single vote for DPOY in those 7 years.

but still Kareem is undoubtedly a much better defender

Jabbar is the vastly superior defender compared to Jokic. He was not just a great defender but an all-time great defender, on level with his contemporaries Russell, Chamberlain, and Thurmond. 5 time all-defensive 1st team and 3 time all-defensive 2nd team.

Any season of Jabbar over his first 12-13 years in the league trumps any Jokic season, including this current season.

kcktiny wrote:
From 1970-71 to 1972-73, Jabbar shot 11% better on 2s (57%) than did just the league average C (46%) while scoring 32.3 pts/g . No other C those 3 years averaged even 22 pts/g. That is pure dominance.

And that was against some great Cs playing at the time, like Chamberlain, Thurmond, Bellamy, Dave Cowens, Wes Unseld, Bob Lanier, and Willis Reed.

This and the previous 2 seasons Jokic scored 26.4 pts/g, less than Embiid, not much more than KAT, while shooting 63% on 2s when the league average C shot 59% on 2s, just 4% better.

Jabbar then his next 8 seasons scored 26 pts/g, far more total points than any other C (some 4000+ more), shooting 7% more on 2s than just the league average C.

Well ok yeah, none of that is surprising considering none of those centers are offensive stunners, and Kareem absolutely is so not sure what that is supposed to mean in a direct Jokic comparison, and that doesn’t address the massive passing advantage among other things.

kcktiny wrote:From 2015-16 to 2021-22 Denver ranked just 22nd (9th worst) in the league in defensive efficiency (110.3 pts/100poss allowed), and those 7 seasons allowed the 5th highest/worst 2pt FG% (52.7%). And Jokic played - by far - the most minutes on Denver all that time (more than 2000 minutes than any other Nuggets player).

Not surprisingly Jokic was not named to any all-defensive teams, and did not receive even a single vote for DPOY in those 7 years.

Going way back to 2016 makes 0 sense given Jokic didn’t even hit his prime until 2019, and the Nuggets weren’t trash on defense at any point from then on unless you want to focus on those few playoff series.

71-74, 76-77. Would consider 78-80 and maybe 70 but I think those years are close to a toss-up. I am not close to making up my mind on how I feel about Jokic's defense, especially relative to era.

capfan33 wrote:71-74, 76-77. Would consider 78-80 and maybe 70 but I think those years are close to a toss-up. I am not close to making up my mind on how I feel about Jokic's defense, especially relative to era.

I think there's a lot of Dirk parallels with Jokic. If you recall how there was a lot of 'Dirk is too soft or Dirk's defense is a major weakness' stuff that was part of his narrative up until he won his ring then it sort of disappeared after that. Jokic may need a ring to get people to get past that.

This is an unfair comparison before Jokic wins a championship. When he does, people will remove the winning bias glasses and realize that Jokic has a top 5 peak.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

capfan33 wrote:71-74, 76-77. Would consider 78-80 and maybe 70 but I think those years are close to a toss-up. I am not close to making up my mind on how I feel about Jokic's defense, especially relative to era.

I think there's a lot of Dirk parallels with Jokic. If you recall how there was a lot of 'Dirk is too soft or Dirk's defense is a major weakness' stuff that was part of his narrative up until he won his ring then it sort of disappeared after that. Jokic may need a ring to get people to get past that.

100% agree, the first thing is that I'm pretty confident Jokic would be completely fine in any other era defensively, like -1 at worst. The game is just really difficult nowadays for players like him, partially because the rules are so slanted toward the offense nowadays. 2nd, he hasn't had a decent team constructed around him, give him that 2011 team and they win the title with him pretty easily most years IMO.

The gap in their defense is way larger than the gap in their offense. Not sure I would take current Jokic over any prime KAJ season up to 1980.

uberhikari wrote:The gap in their defense is way larger than the gap in their offense. Not sure I would take current Jokic over any prime KAJ season up to 1980.

Best big man Gobert nowadays serves as an aiming assist for parameter players. Are we sure KAJ would be much better than Jokic? Last season Jazz, 76er, Bucks, and Nuggets were 12, 13, 15, 16 in DRtg.

dygaction wrote:This is an unfair comparison before Jokic wins a championship. When he does, people will remove the winning bias glasses and realize that Jokic has a top 5 peak.

So you think that all people who sees Jokic concerns om defense simply look through winning bias glasses?

dygaction wrote:

uberhikari wrote:The gap in their defense is way larger than the gap in their offense. Not sure I would take current Jokic over any prime KAJ season up to 1980.

Best big man Gobert nowadays serves as an aiming assist for parameter players. Are we sure KAJ would be much better than Jokic? Last season Jazz, 76er, Bucks, and Nuggets were 12, 13, 15, 16 in DRtg.

Yes, I am sure. Kareem was much better at basicallt every single aspect of defense than Jokic, with the exception of defensive rebounding and maybe steal attempts. It's really not that hard to see which player has higher capability on defensive end when you watch both.

70sFan wrote:

dygaction wrote:

uberhikari wrote:The gap in their defense is way larger than the gap in their offense. Not sure I would take current Jokic over any prime KAJ season up to 1980.

Best big man Gobert nowadays serves as an aiming assist for parameter players. Are we sure KAJ would be much better than Jokic? Last season Jazz, 76er, Bucks, and Nuggets were 12, 13, 15, 16 in DRtg.

Yes, I am sure. Kareem was much better at basicallt every single aspect of defense than Jokic, with the exception of defensive rebounding and maybe steal attempts. It's really not that hard to see which player has higher capability on defensive end when you watch both.

I acknowledged that and asked whether Kareem would be "MUCH" better as Jokic is better offensively.

70sFan wrote:

dygaction wrote:This is an unfair comparison before Jokic wins a championship. When he does, people will remove the winning bias glasses and realize that Jokic has a top 5 peak.

So you think that all people who sees Jokic concerns om defense simply look through winning bias glasses?

Yes, believe me, many. Just like before Giannis winning his finals MVP, people believed his offense not enough

dygaction wrote:

70sFan wrote:

dygaction wrote:This is an unfair comparison before Jokic wins a championship. When he does, people will remove the winning bias glasses and realize that Jokic has a top 5 peak.

So you think that all people who sees Jokic concerns om defense simply look through winning bias glasses?

Yes, believe me, many. Just like before Giannis winning his finals MVP, people believed his offense not enough

Well, Giannis won the title and I still don't see him being as good as peak Kareem...

dygaction wrote:

70sFan wrote:

dygaction wrote:
Best big man Gobert nowadays serves as an aiming assist for parameter players. Are we sure KAJ would be much better than Jokic? Last season Jazz, 76er, Bucks, and Nuggets were 12, 13, 15, 16 in DRtg.

Yes, I am sure. Kareem was much better at basicallt every single aspect of defense than Jokic, with the exception of defensive rebounding and maybe steal attempts. It's really not that hard to see which player has higher capability on defensive end when you watch both.

I acknowledged that and asked whether Kareem would be "MUCH" better as Jokic is better offensively.

Wait, do you really believe that the offensive gap here is bigger than defensive one? Seriously?

70sFan wrote:

dygaction wrote:

70sFan wrote:So you think that all people who sees Jokic concerns om defense simply look through winning bias glasses?

Yes, believe me, many. Just like before Giannis winning his finals MVP, people believed his offense not enough

Well, Giannis won the title and I still don't see him being as good as peak Kareem...

Irrelevant and I don't either.