RealGM

Complement of the other thread.

Current player I'm no longer a fan of that I used to like a lot is probably Klay Thompson. It's increasingly clear he was the (distant) third wheel on that team among that core.

All-time, has to be Shaq. I think there's a very strong argument he's not a top 10 player all-time, and outside of 2000 and a few other years was not top 3 in the league.

Its weird how you are changing your opinion on Klay given he had 2 major injuries.

He was, however, always the clear 3rd guy on Golden State but to sour on him after 2 major injuries is a bit distasteful.

Currently: Trae Young and Ja Morant

I wasn't "Best player in league" high on these guys but they have clear limitations offensively keeping them from being Top 5 offensive players in the league. With their defensive deficiencies and making Nash look respectable, seeing them as Top 10-15 players is difficult in todays talented league.

I very much preferred Lillard and his shot making ability over them and he rarely [if ever] sniffed the Top 10.

Colbinii wrote:Its weird how you are changing your opinion on Klay given he had 2 major injuries.

He was, however, always the clear 3rd guy on Golden State but to sour on him after 2 major injuries is a bit distasteful.

Currently: Trae Young and Ja Morant

I wasn't "Best player in league" high on these guys but they have clear limitations offensively keeping them from being Top 5 offensive players in the league. With their defensive deficiencies and making Nash look respectable, seeing them as Top 10-15 players is difficult in todays talented league.

I very much preferred Lillard and his shot making ability over them and he rarely [if ever] sniffed the Top 10.

I started souring on him in 2019, but fair criticism. Still the second best shooter ever.

ceiling raiser wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Its weird how you are changing your opinion on Klay given he had 2 major injuries.

He was, however, always the clear 3rd guy on Golden State but to sour on him after 2 major injuries is a bit distasteful.

Currently: Trae Young and Ja Morant

I wasn't "Best player in league" high on these guys but they have clear limitations offensively keeping them from being Top 5 offensive players in the league. With their defensive deficiencies and making Nash look respectable, seeing them as Top 10-15 players is difficult in todays talented league.

I very much preferred Lillard and his shot making ability over them and he rarely [if ever] sniffed the Top 10.

I started souring on him in 2019, but fair criticism. Still the second best shooter ever.

Did you think he was better than Draymond previously?

Colbinii wrote:

ceiling raiser wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Its weird how you are changing your opinion on Klay given he had 2 major injuries.

He was, however, always the clear 3rd guy on Golden State but to sour on him after 2 major injuries is a bit distasteful.

Currently: Trae Young and Ja Morant

I wasn't "Best player in league" high on these guys but they have clear limitations offensively keeping them from being Top 5 offensive players in the league. With their defensive deficiencies and making Nash look respectable, seeing them as Top 10-15 players is difficult in todays talented league.

I very much preferred Lillard and his shot making ability over them and he rarely [if ever] sniffed the Top 10.

I started souring on him in 2019, but fair criticism. Still the second best shooter ever.

Did you think he was better than Draymond previously?

In 2015 yeah. Thereafter no. That year I might go Draymond now.

Larry Bird-Early on when I first dipped my toes in analytics, I had him top 5 all-time. At this point, I am just not a big enough believer in his PS offense to have him that high; plus his offensive and defensive peaks did not overlap like arguably many guys in that top 5 ever range. The only PS runs that really stick out as notable to me are 84, 86, and 87. His durability hurts him here.

Kevin Durant-He really was everything I thought he was based on his RS play. However, despite excellent performances since then, I still can't shake the feeling that KD outside of the Warriors ecosystem, would more times than not in many situations, leave me wanting more from him as a playmaker and ball-handler.

His career plus-minus impact also has been a bit underwhelming for a guy who was considered rivals with Lebron.


Damian Lillard-His lack of in-between game and midrange game hurt him come playoff time I feel. If you run him off the 3-point line, I feel as if that is a big win and you have neutered a lot of his impact. He's a good, but not special playmaker.

Lillard has been rather disappointing in the PS compared to his RS exploits.

For example, it doesn't include the 2020 PS, but for his career Damian Lillard had a -0.8 PIPM for his career. Yes you read that right, that's a negative alright.

It's not even for his career that he has been an utter disappointment. Dame from 2017-2019 in the PS, scores 24. 2 pts/75 at -0.1 PS adj TS% (below average efficiency). You know who has a better 3 yr scoring peak...Kevin Garnett, had a 3 yr PS peak of 24.5 pts/75 at 0.2 PS adjTS%, and KG gets a lot of flack for not being able to be a go to option on offense in the PS. Lillard's whole game is based around scoring and creation for others, because he is a negative defensively.


Now going back to my point with Lillard, in the RS he has a 6.4 obpm and in the PS a 4.3 obpm, a -2.1 dropoff which is HUGE (2016-19). There is literally not another star in history who comes close to losing as much value. The next biggest dropoff is by David Robinson at -1.5 and then James Harden at -1.4 (before the 2020 PS) who also get a bunch of flack for PS play.

From 2015-2019, Damian Lillard has a -2.4 PIPM... so he is quite literally a negative on the floor. Even his 2019 playoff run where Lillard "took another step," he had a 0.33 PIPM, so still not very good.

Continuing on, it is not just PIPM that is low on him, but he rates out as a negative in the older version of PS AuPM from (14-19)

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Now I probably would say Peak Lillard was 2020, but considering he wasn't that great in the PS once again versus a good Lakers defense, I tend to go back and look at previous years to get a bigger sample size. The previous years say he wasn't very good either.

From 2016-2020, here is what Lillard looks like from the RS to PS



Also courtesy of Odinn 21, here is Lillard has maybe the biggest dropoff from RS to PS ever: (2016-20) from 6.7 obpm to a 4.4 obpm / -2.3
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1971138&p=83324715#p83324715

Over a much longer span, Westbrook from 11-19, has a 5.2 OBPM in the RS and 4.9 OBPM in the PS.

Lillard's best attribute is supposed to be his scoring and from 2018-2020 Damian Lillard Playoffs Profile:
23.2
PTS/75 -
5.4 AST/75 -
(-0.1) rTS% Lillard has been rather disappointing in the PS compared to his RS exploits.

ceiling raiser wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Its weird how you are changing your opinion on Klay given he had 2 major injuries.

He was, however, always the clear 3rd guy on Golden State but to sour on him after 2 major injuries is a bit distasteful.

Currently: Trae Young and Ja Morant

I wasn't "Best player in league" high on these guys but they have clear limitations offensively keeping them from being Top 5 offensive players in the league. With their defensive deficiencies and making Nash look respectable, seeing them as Top 10-15 players is difficult in todays talented league.

I very much preferred Lillard and his shot making ability over them and he rarely [if ever] sniffed the Top 10.

I started souring on him in 2019, but fair criticism. Still the second best shooter ever.

Oh, you're not even close to being as sour as me on Klay, it seems.

ceiling raiser wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Its weird how you are changing your opinion on Klay given he had 2 major injuries.

He was, however, always the clear 3rd guy on Golden State but to sour on him after 2 major injuries is a bit distasteful.

Currently: Trae Young and Ja Morant

I wasn't "Best player in league" high on these guys but they have clear limitations offensively keeping them from being Top 5 offensive players in the league. With their defensive deficiencies and making Nash look respectable, seeing them as Top 10-15 players is difficult in todays talented league.

I very much preferred Lillard and his shot making ability over them and he rarely [if ever] sniffed the Top 10.

I started souring on him in 2019, but fair criticism. Still the second best shooter ever.

???

HeartBreakKid wrote:

ceiling raiser wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Its weird how you are changing your opinion on Klay given he had 2 major injuries.

He was, however, always the clear 3rd guy on Golden State but to sour on him after 2 major injuries is a bit distasteful.

Currently: Trae Young and Ja Morant

I wasn't "Best player in league" high on these guys but they have clear limitations offensively keeping them from being Top 5 offensive players in the league. With their defensive deficiencies and making Nash look respectable, seeing them as Top 10-15 players is difficult in todays talented league.

I very much preferred Lillard and his shot making ability over them and he rarely [if ever] sniffed the Top 10.

I started souring on him in 2019, but fair criticism. Still the second best shooter ever.

???

If we're strictly talking 3 point shooting and don't take into account shot creation then he has a case, no?

Jaivl wrote:

ceiling raiser wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Its weird how you are changing your opinion on Klay given he had 2 major injuries.

He was, however, always the clear 3rd guy on Golden State but to sour on him after 2 major injuries is a bit distasteful.

Currently: Trae Young and Ja Morant

I wasn't "Best player in league" high on these guys but they have clear limitations offensively keeping them from being Top 5 offensive players in the league. With their defensive deficiencies and making Nash look respectable, seeing them as Top 10-15 players is difficult in todays talented league.

I very much preferred Lillard and his shot making ability over them and he rarely [if ever] sniffed the Top 10.

I started souring on him in 2019, but fair criticism. Still the second best shooter ever.

Oh, you're not even close to being as sour as me on Klay, it seems.

I don't think I'd have Klay inside top 5 to be honest.

HeartBreakKid wrote:

ceiling raiser wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Its weird how you are changing your opinion on Klay given he had 2 major injuries.

He was, however, always the clear 3rd guy on Golden State but to sour on him after 2 major injuries is a bit distasteful.

Currently: Trae Young and Ja Morant

I wasn't "Best player in league" high on these guys but they have clear limitations offensively keeping them from being Top 5 offensive players in the league. With their defensive deficiencies and making Nash look respectable, seeing them as Top 10-15 players is difficult in todays talented league.

I very much preferred Lillard and his shot making ability over them and he rarely [if ever] sniffed the Top 10.

I started souring on him in 2019, but fair criticism. Still the second best shooter ever.

???

You've seen it correctly. He is the second best shooter ever by most people's opinions.

Colbinii wrote:

ceiling raiser wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Its weird how you are changing your opinion on Klay given he had 2 major injuries.

He was, however, always the clear 3rd guy on Golden State but to sour on him after 2 major injuries is a bit distasteful.

Currently: Trae Young and Ja Morant

I wasn't "Best player in league" high on these guys but they have clear limitations offensively keeping them from being Top 5 offensive players in the league. With their defensive deficiencies and making Nash look respectable, seeing them as Top 10-15 players is difficult in todays talented league.

I very much preferred Lillard and his shot making ability over them and he rarely [if ever] sniffed the Top 10.

I started souring on him in 2019, but fair criticism. Still the second best shooter ever.

Did you think he was better than Draymond previously?

Draymond is a triple single player. He has high value only when he plays with superior talent like Steph and Klay.

Dutchball97 wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:

ceiling raiser wrote:I started souring on him in 2019, but fair criticism. Still the second best shooter ever.

???

If we're strictly talking 3 point shooting and don't take into account shot creation then he has a case, no?

Why would we do that?

Dutchball97 wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:

ceiling raiser wrote:I started souring on him in 2019, but fair criticism. Still the second best shooter ever.

???

If we're strictly talking 3 point shooting and don't take into account shot creation then he has a case, no?

I don't know. Even then, prime Klay (15-19) is a 39.4% 3pt shooter without Curry. I'd take Curry, Reggie, Allen, Korver and Nash clearly over him, maybe others like Redick, and that's not even adjusting for era.

And, if we discount shot creation, then other better shooters like Steve Novak have to enter the conversation.

Jaivl wrote:

Dutchball97 wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:???

If we're strictly talking 3 point shooting and don't take into account shot creation then he has a case, no?

I don't know. Even then, prime Klay (15-19) is a 39.4% 3pt shooter without Curry. I'd take Curry, Reggie, Allen, Korver and Nash clearly over him, maybe others like Redick, and that's not even adjusting for era.

And, if we discount shot creation, then other better shooters like Steve Novak have to enter the conversation.

Steve Novak hahahaaha....that guy had one season where he was even mentioned and he is supposed to be better than a hall of famer like Klay Thompson. Wow

Gooner wrote:Draymond is a triple single player. He has high value only when he plays with superior talent like Steph and Klay.

The fact that you can't go beyond raw boxscore numbers doesn't mean you are right.

70sFan wrote:

Gooner wrote:Draymond is a triple single player. He has high value only when he plays with superior talent like Steph and Klay.

The fact that you can't go beyond raw boxscore numbers doesn't mean you are right.

Well, if a player averages 7 points per game, it surely means that ther need to be other talented players on that roster to make that team succesful. Box score numbers can tell you that much. I can also see with my eyes that Draymond can't score. That's not to say that Draymond isn't valuable, but what he does is a definiton of a role player. When he was playing alone without Steph or Klay, we all know how it looked.

Gooner wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Gooner wrote:Draymond is a triple single player. He has high value only when he plays with superior talent like Steph and Klay.

The fact that you can't go beyond raw boxscore numbers doesn't mean you are right.

Well, if a player averages 7 points per game, it surely means that ther need to be other talented players on that roster to make that team succesful. Box score numbers can tell you that much. I can also see with my eyes that Draymond can't score. That's not to say that Draymond isn't valuable, but what he does is a definiton of a role player. When he was playing alone without Steph or Klay, we all know how it looked.

If all player can do is score, then he needs to be in a team with other talented players on the roster to make that team successfull.

Klay is a roleplayer - he has one role and it is to shoot from off-ball actions. Green is the most versatile defender in the league who can also contribute on offensive end as a playmaker.

You just can't go beyond scoring and it's sad.

Klay's 2015 regular season was genuinely very good I think, probably top 15-25 player in the NBA level. He's largely coasted off that reputation for a while though. Sort of a player that no one really pays attention to unless they have a big game, probably because his limitations are very much accepted and he's not expected to be an elite player consistently. Sort of gets the best of both worlds.

HeartBreakKid wrote:

Dutchball97 wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:???

If we're strictly talking 3 point shooting and don't take into account shot creation then he has a case, no?

Why would we do that?

Because that's literally the definition in mainstream discourse about who the best "shooters" are. I don't agree with it either (trust me I'm even lower on Klay than everyone here saying they've soured on him) but it's not some obscure way of looking at the discussion.

On another note it'd be interesting to see who people on here have as their top 10 or so best shooters and what they value. I could see people going hard on 3 point shooters like the mainstream, maybe they think FT shooting is the best indicator of shooting prowess or they prefer more versatile shooters who can score from anywhere.

Rudy Gobert.

I can't help but believe this is the 2nd team he has destroyed the morale of. He is putting up a Dwight Howard career trajectory right now being a toxic perennial Defensive Player of the Year that nobody truly fears.