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Probably his most underrated season. Where would you rank him?

That was arguably Hakeem’s peak, so best player in the league pretty handily imo.

Arguably the best season of his career. Definitely the best scoring season of his career and it was a DPOY year for him, no question.

He had range and a face-up game with quality handles for a dude his size. It's not hard to imagine him developing 3pt shooting. Setting that aside, he'd be a league-average scorer in terms of efficiency, which isn't hot as a volume option. That raises the whole scope of questions of how he'd adapt and everything, but he would certainly be a nightmare with a decent PnR guard, that's for sure. Super mobile, all over the place on defense, able to exploit all kinds of scenarios on offense.

I can't see him under top 5, and the specific spot depends on how well he adapts his scoring efficiency to the modern league. Lots of ways it might happen, as with any of the hyper-athletic bigs from earlier days, of course, and he definitely had the skills to be a nightmare (heh), but it's still a question worth asking.

No-more-rings wrote:That was arguably Hakeem’s peak, so best player in the league pretty handily imo.

So you see clear separation from Giannis and Jokic?

I feel jokic is on another level offensively

1993Playoffs wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:That was arguably Hakeem’s peak, so best player in the league pretty handily imo.

So you see clear separation from Giannis and Jokic?

I feel jokic is on another level offensively

Jokic is too weak defensively to win that comparison, and i’m not convinced that Giannis is much better offensively if at all once playoffs are factored in.

No-more-rings wrote:

1993Playoffs wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:That was arguably Hakeem’s peak, so best player in the league pretty handily imo.

So you see clear separation from Giannis and Jokic?

I feel jokic is on another level offensively

Jokic is too weak defensively to win that comparison, and i’m not convinced that Giannis is much better offensively if at all once playoffs are factored in.

It's worth discussing, because there's a large difference in their offensive ability. 93 Dream was pretty good but nothing staggering come the playoffs in terms of his offense. Jokic, on the other hand, is a wild monster offensively.

Also keep in mind that some of Dream's defensive efficacy did extend out of stuff he wouldn't be able to do quite the same way today. He'd still be a mobile beast and very disruptive, but he'd have to adapt how he defended for maximum efficacy... and 3pt shooting would also reduce the number of shots where he would be involved in the first place. Again, that may matter only so much, but it will prove to have some effect. Meantime, we're talking about specifically bringing him into today's game, after all. And yeah, Jokic's offense is very distant above Olajuwon's.

I always hedge my bets so I said top-5, but I agree it's pretty clearly his peak and one of the best seasons in NBA history so I suspect he would be #1, with only a healthy Curry really comparable.

capfan33 wrote:I always hedge my bets so I said top-5, but I agree it's pretty clearly his peak and one of the best seasons in NBA history so I suspect he would be #1, with only a healthy Curry really comparable.

Was that a conversation during the season as it was happening? From what I can tell most people had MJ as clearly the best player in the league in 1993 and he wasn’t as his absolute peak anymore

tsherkin wrote:Arguably the best season of his career. Definitely the best scoring season of his career and it was a DPOY year for him, no question.

He had range and a face-up game with quality handles for a dude his size. It's not hard to imagine him developing 3pt shooting. Setting that aside, he'd be a league-average scorer in terms of efficiency, which isn't hot as a volume option. That raises the whole scope of questions of how he'd adapt and everything, but he would certainly be a nightmare with a decent PnR guard, that's for sure. Super mobile, all over the place on defense, able to exploit all kinds of scenarios on offense.

I can't see him under top 5, and the specific spot depends on how well he adapts his scoring efficiency to the modern league. Lots of ways it might happen, as with any of the hyper-athletic bigs from earlier days, of course, and he definitely had the skills to be a nightmare (heh), but it's still a question worth asking.

Would you say he compares offensively to a AD with worse shooting? Like he needs someone to get him the ball in certain spots so he can be most effective?

1993Playoffs wrote:

tsherkin wrote:Arguably the best season of his career. Definitely the best scoring season of his career and it was a DPOY year for him, no question.

He had range and a face-up game with quality handles for a dude his size. It's not hard to imagine him developing 3pt shooting. Setting that aside, he'd be a league-average scorer in terms of efficiency, which isn't hot as a volume option. That raises the whole scope of questions of how he'd adapt and everything, but he would certainly be a nightmare with a decent PnR guard, that's for sure. Super mobile, all over the place on defense, able to exploit all kinds of scenarios on offense.

I can't see him under top 5, and the specific spot depends on how well he adapts his scoring efficiency to the modern league. Lots of ways it might happen, as with any of the hyper-athletic bigs from earlier days, of course, and he definitely had the skills to be a nightmare (heh), but it's still a question worth asking.

Would you say he compares offensively to a AD with worse shooting? Like he needs someone to get him the ball in certain spots so he can be most effective?

Why do you think Hakeem was a worse shooter than current AD? He's been shooting 29% from three and only 39% from midrange. I'd say that peak Hakeem was better shooter than Davis in fact.

1993Playoffs wrote:

capfan33 wrote:I always hedge my bets so I said top-5, but I agree it's pretty clearly his peak and one of the best seasons in NBA history so I suspect he would be #1, with only a healthy Curry really comparable.

Was that a conversation during the season as it was happening? From what I can tell most people had MJ as clearly the best player in the league in 1993 and he wasn’t as his absolute peak anymore

I think that Hakeem was quite clearly the most impactful player in the league throughout the whole year.

People focusing way too much on if he would hit threes or not. As with that mid-90s Rockets team, if you put quality roleplayers/shooters around Hakeem he would be dominant. And without the plethora of big, bruising 7 footers a guy like Hakeem with his athleticism/agility and defensive instincts would clearly stand out. I'd say he'd easily be a Top 3 player in the league right alongside Giannis/Jokic quite easily.

70sFan wrote:Why do you think Hakeem was a worse shooter than current AD? He's been shooting 29% from three and only 39% from midrange. I'd say that peak Hakeem was better shooter than Davis in fact.

With this. Olajuwon was a very good mid-range shooter.

1993Playoffs wrote:Would you say he compares offensively to a AD with worse shooting? Like he needs someone to get him the ball in certain spots so he can be most effective?

No. AD is a whole other level of off-ball player and considerably LESS skillful on-ball than Olajuwon.

CharityStripe34 wrote:People focusing way too much on if he would hit threes or not. As with that mid-90s Rockets team, if you put quality roleplayers/shooters around Hakeem he would be dominant.

But again, the question comes specifically from the perspective of whether his volume scoring would be worthwhile. At 58% TS and without major playmaking, the answer is probably "no" unless you've got a LOT of really amazing offensive talent around him and he throttles back his total shooting volume.

There is ALSO the question of how many different ways a team with a good offensive scheme and a decent lead guard could find him some more gimme buckets today, of course. A few more PnRs, a little more transition play, a little action where he's away from the ball and comes late to it around guard penetration, that sort of thing. The type of thing he didn't really enjoy in his actual career. So that might play in a little as well.

Proper spacing would be helpful. That's almost a given these days, Lakers notwithstanding. But it really still depends on what shots he's taking. He's not gonna become a 60% guy taking 45% middies and 40% long twos, which were a lot of his bread and butter shots out of face-up isolations and the like. The pace today is a little faster than it was in the mid-90s, which would help an athletic guy like him a bit, of course, so as I said in my earlier post, it's a bit up in the air but not a guarantee. Olajuwon was a 108 TS+ guy (+4.1% rTS) guy in 1993. That's not super likely to be the case in 2023 without MAJOR changes in his game, and a more Embiid-like approach to things.

Of course, nothing is ever guaranteed in any of the hypotheticals. I have a general rule that the pantheon-level elite players would generally be elite players in any era. Especially great athletes with size and two-way instinct.

70sFan wrote:

1993Playoffs wrote:

capfan33 wrote:I always hedge my bets so I said top-5, but I agree it's pretty clearly his peak and one of the best seasons in NBA history so I suspect he would be #1, with only a healthy Curry really comparable.

Was that a conversation during the season as it was happening? From what I can tell most people had MJ as clearly the best player in the league in 1993 and he wasn’t as his absolute peak anymore

I think that Hakeem was quite clearly the most impactful player in the league throughout the whole year.

I’d probably give Hakeem the edge due his clearly better defense against MJ. But I think most would probably pick MJ due to his much better playoff performance. It’s a pretty strong case IMO

Forgive me, but does Hakeem get teleported to today with help onboard or not? Twin Towers Jokic and Olajuwon sleigh ride straight to a 4 game finals. Or similar the other way with Trae Young, or Golden State. Like, does Hakeem get a team where he doesn't have to try to lead every statistical category?

1993Playoffs wrote:

capfan33 wrote:I always hedge my bets so I said top-5, but I agree it's pretty clearly his peak and one of the best seasons in NBA history so I suspect he would be #1, with only a healthy Curry really comparable.

Was that a conversation during the season as it was happening? From what I can tell most people had MJ as clearly the best player in the league in 1993 and he wasn’t as his absolute peak anymore

Back then, yes most people considered MJ the best player but it's a bit like LeBron being the best player but other guys got MVP. Several posters around here think MJ is overrated (I personally don't). Almost nobody was talking about Hakeem being a better player than MJ that season, MJ was coming off b2b chips as the Finals MVP. The Dream didn't get as much talk/respect until he won his first championship, then especially after his 2nd -- but still people knocked him a bit for winning while Jordan was out of the league (which even as a Jordan guy, I think is quite unfair).

92-93 Barkley got MVP but MJ led the league in BPM, VORP, Win Shares, PER and many other stats from 86-87 to 92-93. LeBron had a similar run from 08-09 to 12-13 and won MVP 4 of those years (Jordan won 3 during his stretch, and his 4th in '96). The best player doesn't always win MVP, often it's the "best player on a team with an awesome record" award.

In terms of the original question, if we're talking about a direct time portal without The Dream getting to acclimate to the league, I think it's unlikely he would be the best player as the league has changed quite a bit. His offense would be slightly less valuable so I have a tough time seeing him as being better than Jokic.

I think he's better than Jokic and Giannis. His RS offense isn't as good as them but his defense even in off years are leaps and bounds over them.

tsherkin wrote:But again, the question comes specifically from the perspective of whether his volume scoring would be worthwhile. At 58% TS and without major playmaking, the answer is probably "no" unless you've got a LOT of really amazing offensive talent around him and he throttles back his total shooting volume.

Well, maybe it's nitpicking but Giannis is at 58.4 TS% this year and he also reached career high volume. Much different players, but I guess it's possible. All depends on coaching and team structure.

DonaldSanders wrote:

1993Playoffs wrote:

capfan33 wrote:I always hedge my bets so I said top-5, but I agree it's pretty clearly his peak and one of the best seasons in NBA history so I suspect he would be #1, with only a healthy Curry really comparable.

Was that a conversation during the season as it was happening? From what I can tell most people had MJ as clearly the best player in the league in 1993 and he wasn’t as his absolute peak anymore

Back then, yes most people considered MJ the best player but it's a bit like LeBron being the best player but other guys got MVP. Several posters around here think MJ is overrated (I personally don't). Almost nobody was talking about Hakeem being a better player than MJ that season, MJ was coming off b2b chips as the Finals MVP.

That is not really true though.

Hakeem was second in MVP voting that year, and I think one could easily argue he lost for primarily superficial reasons. The Suns started the season 21-4, and went 16-2 without KJ; that sets some narratives pretty early. Add in that they earned the league’s top seed, and that Barkley seemed to many to be Team USA’s best player in the summer Olympics (no Hakeem present), and you immediately have a full steam Barkley MVP train without really needing to look at what either player is doing.

Hakeem had a slower start. He and the Rockets were still working to acclimate themselves to Rudy T’s scheme, with similar growing pains to what we saw with the 1990 Bulls. And then like the 1990 Bulls, they as a team, and Hakeem individually, eventually went on a tear. January 8th, they had a losing record at 14-16. Hakeem was averaging 24.7/12.6/2.8/4.1/1.4 on 57.1% efficiency. They then went 41-11 the rest of the way with Hakeem averaging 26.9/13.3/4/4.2/2.1 on 58% efficiency. He was absolutely in the conversation for best in the world in that stretch. Unfortunately, those first couple of months count too, and the Barkley narrative had built up far too much of a lead, and then they lost an overtime game 7 on the road in the second round against their by far worst matchup, so it gets lost in memory.

The Dream didn't get as much talk/respect until he won his first championship, then especially after his 2nd -- but still people knocked him a bit for winning while Jordan was out of the league (which even as a Jordan guy, I think is quite unfair).

92-93 Barkley got MVP but MJ led the league in BPM, VORP, Win Shares, PER and many other stats from 86-87 to 92-93. LeBron had a similar run from 08-09 to 12-13 and won MVP 4 of those years (Jordan won 3 during his stretch, and his 4th in '96). The best player doesn't always win MVP, often it's the "best player on a team with an awesome record" award.

Yes, which is why Barkley won it, but unless you think 1987 Magic was a fraud MVP and worse than Jordan that year too, maybe not everything in player assessment comes down to VORP and PER and Win Shares.

In terms of the original question, if we're talking about a direct time portal without The Dream getting to acclimate to the league, I think it's unlikely he would be the best player as the league has changed quite a bit. His offense would be slightly less valuable so I have a tough time seeing him as being better than Jokic.

In the regular season he would probably not have a raw value argument over Jokic, no. But when we talk about rankings, most people considered everything. And what has Jokic showed me in the postseason which would make him more trustworthy than Hakeem?

As we discussed in some of the other time machine threads, the biggest efficiency beneficiaries of the modern league have been bigs. So the question is how willing are we to grant Hakeem those big man boosts? Can he become an elite pick and roll finisher next to one of the myriad of star guards we have in the league — all significant steps up from Kenny Smith and past-peak Sleepy Floyd? Tough to say for sure, but certainly conceivable, and that seems on lower end of translation assumptions we tend to make for other players. Does he extend his range somewhat? I think yes, but if you look at Jokic and Embiid, that probably constitutes around three perimetre attempts a game. Does he draw fouls or live at the rim like Embiid or Giannis, no, that was never really his game. Do modern schemes suit his passing, yes, but only in that Embiid sense where you still do not want him actually being a lead creator. Could he play a bit like Davis, maybe, but he never had Davis’s off-ball aptitude. So even if you boost his raw offensive output up a bit on the margins, he is not going to be some wildly valuable offensive piece, no.

Defensively, I still think he would be the best in the league provided we give some accommodations for translation; of any twentieth century big man, I only trust Russell more to fit into modern schemes, so either Hakeem translates or pretty much no old big does. And again, here I am speaking with an eye to the postseason: pretty much no one ever had a defensive value season like 2021 Gobert, so even if I could try to sell some of you on this notion of “peak Gobert + an offensive skillset outside of screening and finishing,” that does not mean he is some inevitable top regular season impact name. In the postseason, though? Tough to look at how successful Embiid and Draymond have been on the court and not see Hakeem topping those marks. His offensive game is more resilient than Embiid’s and Giannis’s, and you probably cannot play 5-out against him the way you can against Gobert without being punished on the inside — nor is he quite as vulnerable to being spaced out either (as someone who thinks that particular flaw in Gobert’s game has been overblown). Couple all that with his high-end endurance, and that profiles to me pretty safely as the league’s most immediately reliable two-way postseason player.

There are plenty of question marks, but there is no specific way I think he would explicitly need to adjust or otherwise be unable/unlikely to adjust which would keep him out of that possibility. His individual skillset is still scarce and still valuable. His scoring inelasticity and his rarely paralleled defensive acumen give you a high baseline in essentially any era. The way I see it, if Giannis can be a or the leading candidate for best player, then Hakeem can top that in the postseason. And if we want to argue that Giannis is a fake candidate and only guys like Steph or Luka or healthy Lebron or healthy Davis could qualify, well, then I guess the argument may as well be that no 20th century players have the requisite skillset to be the league leader in this era. And to be clear, I do not think that is an indefensible argument, but then I still see value in taking the position, If not peak Hakeem, then quite probably no one in these time machine exercises.