Ray Allen/Lebron James vs Chris Paul/Dirk Nowitzki

[Matt15]

Which duo would you rather build a team around?

[No-more-rings]

Cp3 and Dirk is tempting, but something about the fit to me feels sort of off. Probably go Allen/Lebron.

[youngcrev]

Lebron + Ray.

Lebron's the best player by a decent margin, and Ray would be awesome next to him.

[Texas Chuck]

LeBron obviously not close

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[1993Playoffs]

It’s going to be Tough to ever pick against a guy that’s still a top 10 player in year 20

[HeartBreakKid]

Dirk and CP3, I don't think it's very close.

Fit is nice and all but two mvp players are a better core than one. The gap between the average player vs the GOAT and a top 30 player isn't that drastic, it's not like the average forward is going to be like "phew, I just have to guard Dirk tonight". There are diminishing returns.

[Colbinii]

I lean towards Dirk/CP3. CP3 nor Dirk ever played with a teammate as good as the other, both have incredible longevity and while CP3 has played for a handful of franchises, I see no reason he would ever have an interest in leaving Dirk.

Add in some marginal, defensive oriented/veteran wings and a rim finishing center and you're going to be a title contender for 15+ years.

[ronnymac2]

LeBron James and Ray Allen easily. Two MVPs vs. One MVP is quickly seen as fool's gold when half of the prime seasons end up being LBJ/Ray vs. just Dirk due to CP3's durability concerns.

[Ballerhogger]

Lebron with goat level shooter is really unstoppable. I like dirk but paul is the smallest guy here and has had injury issues his whole career in important games.

[Kingdibs19]

The team that has what the majority consider to be the 2nd best player of all time with the 2nd best shooter of all time.

Lebron + shooters is guaranteed finals. Lebron + Ray is a dynasty.

[HeartBreakKid]

LeBron James and Ray Allen easily. Two MVPs vs. One MVP is quickly seen as fool's gold when half of the prime seasons end up being LBJ/Ray vs. just Dirk due to CP3's durability concerns.

- It's not head to head

- CP3 has a long prime, so even "half" of his prime is a lot

- CP3's injuries wouldn't matter nearly as much if his teammate is Nowitzki. CP3's teams lose when he is injured because they have nothing else to fall back on - they're not getting bumped in the first round if it's Dirk with decent teammates. For example, see GSW with Curry


The gap between Chris Paul and Ray Allen is considerably larger than James and Nowitzki.


Lebron James has had a teammate who is Ray Allen tier for much of his career, or at least had two all-stars who combined would be more valuable. I don't know why we are pretending like he would have a million titles automatically. Hardly seems like a lock.

[OhayoKD]

LeBron James and Ray Allen easily. Two MVPs vs. One MVP is quickly seen as fool's gold when half of the prime seasons end up being LBJ/Ray vs. just Dirk due to CP3's durability concerns.

- It's not head to head

- CP3 has a long prime, so even "half" of his prime is a lot

- CP3's injuries wouldn't matter nearly as much if his teammate is Nowitzki. CP3's teams lose when he is injured because they have nothing else to fall back on - they're not getting bumped in the first round if it's Dirk with decent teammates. For example, see GSW with Curry


The gap between Chris Paul and Ray Allen is considerably larger than James and Nowitzki.


Lebron James has had a teammate who is Ray Allen tier for much of his career, or at least had two all-stars who combined would be more valuable. I don't know why we are pretending like he would have a million titles automatically. Hardly seems like a lock.

So what's the basis here for gaps between greats not being potentially massive? I know its a common sentiment, but like is there a reason we assume this

[No-more-rings]

So i’m not that convinced actually that the gap between Lebron and Dirk is massively smaller than that of Cp3>Allen. We can talk about labels like goat vs mvp vs all nba or whatever the case, but I consider the gap between someone with an arguable goat career vs someone who’s a regular top 20 guy to be pretty notable.

And let’s take a look at Ray’s prime playoff numbers(before he went to Boston)

37 games: rounded up 25/5/5 43.5 3p fg% 23.6 PER 60+ ts%(when league average was like 52%) and a 7.6 OBPM

I mean Ray was a baller when he was in his prime, and makes me wonder if people remember him more in Boston where he was mostly old and played almost exclusively off ball. Some people tend to act like he was just a juiced up Kyle Korver or something.

[ronnymac2]

LeBron James and Ray Allen easily. Two MVPs vs. One MVP is quickly seen as fool's gold when half of the prime seasons end up being LBJ/Ray vs. just Dirk due to CP3's durability concerns.

- It's not head to head

Comparison isn't as fun then.

- CP3 has a long prime, so even "half" of his prime is a lot

LBJ and Ray have long primes, too. Like, longevity-wise, we're talking about four excellent players here. One happens to not be durable. That matters enough to be brought up.

- CP3's injuries wouldn't matter nearly as much if his teammate is Nowitzki. CP3's teams lose when he is injured because they have nothing else to fall back on - they're not getting bumped in the first round if it's Dirk with decent teammates. For example, see GSW with Curry

No disagreement. Nowitzki is a beast. But ultimately if Paul's health fails, come playoff time, even Dirk will have a hard time overcoming the odds against presumably top-tier team competition in the conference finals, or even semifinals (considering Paul's lack of durability might cause the team to have a lower seed).

The gap between Chris Paul and Ray Allen is considerably larger than James and Nowitzki.


Lebron James has had a teammate who is Ray Allen tier for much of his career, or at least had two all-stars who combined would be more valuable. I don't know why we are pretending like he would have a million titles automatically. Hardly seems like a lock.

Paul > Ray, but I doubt we agree on size of the gap, which is okay. I do agree that LBJ/Ray is not overpowered for any hypothetical league. People always want to give LBJ an elite player who gets most of his value out of being a shooter, and while that's not a bad pairing with LBJ, I've always felt there are better archetypes to pair LBJ with since you can get 3-point shooting/spacing out of lower volume role players who are better defensively on a per-possession basis. I think people have always been enamored by the prime James/Allen hypothetical pairing because:

1. They saw how great it was in real-life even when Ray wasn't a 35 MPG All-star anymore.
2. They almost saw it in real life when CLE was in contention to get Ray, or Michael Redd, or Joe Johnson, but instead got Larry Hughes and Mo Williams.

[falcolombardi]

I lean towards Dirk/CP3. CP3 nor Dirk ever played with a teammate as good as the other, both have incredible longevity and while CP3 has played for a handful of franchises, I see no reason he would ever have an interest in leaving Dirk.

Add in some marginal, defensive oriented/veteran wings and a rim finishing center and you're going to be a title contender for 15+ years.

Are we forgetting about that offensive all time great non-american point guard dirk played with?

This is barea erasure

Now answering the question, i always lean to the "best and worst player" side in these assymetric 1/4 vs 2/3 comparisions, but here the fit of dirk and paul is so potent in offense it makes me have doubts

Could go either way

[Bidofo]

People are way overthinking it by trusting the guy with relatively significant durability issues.

[Cavsfansince84]

The gap between Chris Paul and Ray Allen is considerably larger than James and Nowitzki.


Lebron James has had a teammate who is Ray Allen tier for much of his career, or at least had two all-stars who combined would be more valuable. I don't know why we are pretending like he would have a million titles automatically. Hardly seems like a lock.

I'd say only 11, 12, 15(but lost both Love and Kyrie in the playoffs), 16, 17 and 20. Since 20 AD hasn't been healthy enough when it matters to count him and Wade was basically cooked in the 2013 playoffs. So I'd say only 5 playoff runs in 20 years he had a player of prime Ray's caliber and won rings 3 of those years while going against the goat team in 2017. No real right/wrong answer though since both duos should win a bunch of rings but CP3's health is just too much of a risk to take his team imo.

[Jaivl]

I'd probably take LeBron alone over both Paul and Dirk combined, or at least I'd consider it. LeBron/Allen with medium-high confidence for me.

[rand]

Dirk/CP3

I won't say it's not close because LeBron paired with anyone can't be taken lightly but Ray can't hold up the undercard here vs CP3. Just compare their RAPM and BPM year-by-year. I know all stats are contextual but the gap between the two is large enough to be noticeable. Ray in fact is closer to Dirk than CP3 in both these metrics which in my view is quite a statement about how far Ray lags behind the other three players in overall strength.

Ray's defense in particular is a killer here. CP3 is not only a great offensive player, he's one of the best defensive players ever among star PGs, which is borne out by DRAPM. Prime Ray usually posted a negative DRAPM, sometimes massively negative. Dirk's defense is sometimes derided but he posted a positive DRAPM every season between 2003-2014.

I don't know why anyone would question the Dirk/CP3 fit. It's a perfect fit. They're going to pick-and-roll/pop everyone to death.

[PistolPeteJR]

Dirk and CP3, I don't think it's very close.

Fit is nice and all but two mvp players are a better core than one. The gap between the average player vs the GOAT and a top 30 player isn't that drastic, it's not like the average forward is going to be like "phew, I just have to guard Dirk tonight". There are diminishing returns.

Tell me you didn’t see peak Allen without telling me you didn’t see peak Allen.