Bird closer to LeBron or KD Closer to Bird?

[1993Playoffs]

Which gap is closest to you?

[eminence]

Peak I'd say Bird closer to LeBron, but for career KD closer to Bird.

[Colbinii]

KD closer to Bird. I may even take Prime KD over Prime Bird in terms of playoffs which would then easily make Bird closer to KD since both KD/LeBron would be ahead.

[dygaction]

KD closer to Bird. I may even take Prime KD over Prime Bird in terms of playoffs which would then easily make Bird closer to KD since both KD/LeBron would be ahead.

This, KD and Bird are likely in the same 10-15 category.

[SNPA]

Reject the premise if talking peak.

[70sFan]

I think I have similar gap between them in my ranking (1-2 for LeBron, 11-14 for Bird, 20-24 for KD), so I think the gap is bigger between James and Bird, as GOAT-candidate has a higher advantage over fringe top 10 guy than this guy has over fringe top 20 guy in my ranking.

Peaks are much tougher to me, because I think there is a significant gap between peak Bird and peak KD to me.

[1993Playoffs]

I think I have similar gap between them in my ranking (1-2 for LeBron, 11-14 for Bird, 20-24 for KD), so I think the gap is bigger between James and Bird, as GOAT-candidate has a higher advantage over fringe top 10 guy than this guy has over fringe top 20 guy in my ranking.

Peaks are much tougher to me, because I think there is a significant gap between peak Bird and peak KD to me.

I used to agree with this but at this point I’m comfortable saying KD is a significantly better scorer and definitely peaked higher defensively. Neither guy were consistently setting the world on fire in the playoffs in their primes either imo.

[LukaTheGOAT]

If this is based on the other thread, it asked for best 8 seasons, so I will attempt to argue in a similar light. If more specification is asked for later (like say single year peaks), then I might change my answer.

For simplicity sakes I will do 8-year PS stretches (which might hurt Lebron because it won't include his 18 or 20 PS runs, that would boost his numbers).

Lebron (2009-2016)

Backpicks BPM-8.3 (+1.9 Advantage over Bird, +1.8 Advantage over Durant)

PER-28.9 (+6.8 Advantage over Bird, +3.8 Advantage over Durant))

BPM-10.4 (+2.8 Advantage over Bird and Durant)

WS/48-0.258 (+0.072 Advantage over Bird, 0.055 Advantage over Durant)


Larry Bird (1981-1988)

Backpicks BPM-6.4 (-0.1 Deficit to Durant)

PER-22.1 (-3 Deficit to Durant)

BPM-7.6 (+0 advantage over Durant)

WS/48-0.186 (-0.017 Deficit to Durant)



Kevin Durant (2012-2021)

Backpicks BPM-6.5

PER-25.1

BPM-7.6

WS/48-.203


First things first, is that Durant looks a bit better by the box-score metrics in terms of 8-year peaks. Not super surprising to me, as I do think what Durant does is probably better captured by the box-score than Bird's off-ball movement and quick ball moving passing. Bird also just seemed to have really poorly timed injuries and illness during his prime years. I also think Durant made an excellent decision to join GSW, as it really allowed him a chance to really show his isolation scoring in a PS context-he should have never left (but I digress).

Nonetheless, if we take averages, Lebron in the 4 stats listed above, has an average margin of 2.893 over Bird and 2.11375 over Durant per the numbers used above. On the other hand, only has a 0.77925 advantage over Bird per the numbers. Lebron's margin, no matter what stat you use, is larger than Durant's margin over Bird.

There is a lot of contexts to consider, but considering the margins seem to be over double in magnitude, I am not certain if using any of the more sophisticated metrics we have, would necessarily reap a different result (and therefore probably not worth going through the effort to calculate).

Like to make up the difference in these numbers, I think you would have to believe things not well captured by the box-score, such as off-ball movement, hockey-assists, etc. are underrated by the box-score by unbelievable orders of magnitude in order to have Bird look better; and the thing is, I believe Lebron has aspects of his defense underrated per the box-score such his rim-deterrence (he's a pseudo-big, but you maybe couldn't tell by his blocks numbers), his communication on defense, and versatility to defend multiple positions.

I think the gap between Lebron and Bird likely widens if we do a career-value approach (while the gap between KD and Bird dwindles, as KD continues accruing more career-value).

[Heej]

I thought this was about playstyle cuz Bird is closer to Lebron in basketball IQ. I guess if LeBron is 1 and KD is 15, the highest Bird could reasonably go is top 7 after Mt Rushmore magic and Timmy. Then it's between him and Wilt for 7/8 imo and Bird is barely closer to LeBron on average. If you got LeBron 2-4 Bird is clearly closer to LeBron career-wise. Let's not forget KD has the most fraudulent rings in NBA history. His career accomplishments are pretty mid compared to other legends and generational players.

Peak-wise Bird is closer to KD than he is LeBron tho. Which isn't a diss because peak KD was probably 93-95% as good as peak Bron

[70sFan]

I think I have similar gap between them in my ranking (1-2 for LeBron, 11-14 for Bird, 20-24 for KD), so I think the gap is bigger between James and Bird, as GOAT-candidate has a higher advantage over fringe top 10 guy than this guy has over fringe top 20 guy in my ranking.

Peaks are much tougher to me, because I think there is a significant gap between peak Bird and peak KD to me.

I used to agree with this but at this point I’m comfortable saying KD is a significantly better scorer and definitely peaked higher defensively. Neither guy were consistently setting the world on fire in the playoffs in their primes either imo.

I don't see any significant defensive gap between them to be honest. Both of them are very overrated defensively in my opinion and didn't contribute much behind being solid defenders.

KD is a much better scorer, but it doesn't make him a better offensive player.

[homecourtloss]

Reject the premise if talking peak.

Are you arguing peak Bird > Peak LeBron?

[rk2023]

Reject the premise if talking peak.

Are you arguing peak Bird > Peak LeBron?

My guess is that rejecting the premise would be disagreeing with the aggregate votes in this context, and viewing peak Bird closer to Bron than KD (I think that's perfectly reasonable).

[Jaivl]

Reject the premise if talking peak.

Are you arguing peak Bird > Peak LeBron?

My guess is that rejecting the premise would be disagreeing with the aggregate votes in this context, and viewing peak Bird closer to Bron than KD (I think that's perfectly reasonable).

I'm betting on it being the peak Bird > peak LeBron explanation.

[rk2023]

Are you arguing peak Bird > Peak LeBron?

My guess is that rejecting the premise would be disagreeing with the aggregate votes in this context, and viewing peak Bird closer to Bron than KD (I think that's perfectly reasonable).

I'm betting on it being the peak Bird > peak LeBron explanation.

Didn't think I would see a point like this on the player comp forums in 2023

[No-more-rings]

I think I have similar gap between them in my ranking (1-2 for LeBron, 11-14 for Bird, 20-24 for KD), so I think the gap is bigger between James and Bird, as GOAT-candidate has a higher advantage over fringe top 10 guy than this guy has over fringe top 20 guy in my ranking.

Peaks are much tougher to me, because I think there is a significant gap between peak Bird and peak KD to me.

I used to agree with this but at this point I’m comfortable saying KD is a significantly better scorer and definitely peaked higher defensively. Neither guy were consistently setting the world on fire in the playoffs in their primes either imo.

I don't see any significant defensive gap between them to be honest. Both of them are very overrated defensively in my opinion and didn't contribute much behind being solid defenders.

KD is a much better scorer, but it doesn't make him a better offensive player.

And even then, “much better scorer” might be a bit of hyperbole when discussing peak performances. Bird’s scoring by itself in the 84 and 86 playoff runs, are probably fairly close to what KD was doing on average in OKC.

But yeah, passing is significantly in Bird’s favor and I don’t see any meaningful difference in defense either way either.

[1993Playoffs]

I think I have similar gap between them in my ranking (1-2 for LeBron, 11-14 for Bird, 20-24 for KD), so I think the gap is bigger between James and Bird, as GOAT-candidate has a higher advantage over fringe top 10 guy than this guy has over fringe top 20 guy in my ranking.

Peaks are much tougher to me, because I think there is a significant gap between peak Bird and peak KD to me.

I used to agree with this but at this point I’m comfortable saying KD is a significantly better scorer and definitely peaked higher defensively. Neither guy were consistently setting the world on fire in the playoffs in their primes either imo.

I don't see any significant defensive gap between them to be honest. Both of them are very overrated defensively in my opinion and didn't contribute much behind being solid defenders.

KD is a much better scorer, but it doesn't make him a better offensive player.

I think KD was a better defensive player than bird ever was in the 2016 and 2017 seasons. And even though he was disappointing offensively in the playoffs Bird also declined at a similar or worse degree most years

[Jaqua92]

The takes in this thread are wild.

Bird peaked MUCH higher than KD.

Bird falls 6-8. LeBron is 2. KD top 15.

Bird is closer to Bron in peak and all time.

What happened to this place? Bird has been a top 5/fringe top 5 player forever. Now some of these kids won't put him in top 10?

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[70sFan]

I used to agree with this but at this point I’m comfortable saying KD is a significantly better scorer and definitely peaked higher defensively. Neither guy were consistently setting the world on fire in the playoffs in their primes either imo.

I don't see any significant defensive gap between them to be honest. Both of them are very overrated defensively in my opinion and didn't contribute much behind being solid defenders.

KD is a much better scorer, but it doesn't make him a better offensive player.

I think KD was a better defensive player than bird ever was in the 2016 and 2017 seasons. And even though he was disappointing offensively in the playoffs Bird also declined at a similar or worse degree most years

I think Bird was similarily impactful defensively in his early years (1980-84). I remember all these talks of Durant becoming elite defender in GSW, but I didn't see him that way then and I don't see any evidences that would change my mind.

[Gooner]

I think I have similar gap between them in my ranking (1-2 for LeBron, 11-14 for Bird, 20-24 for KD), so I think the gap is bigger between James and Bird, as GOAT-candidate has a higher advantage over fringe top 10 guy than this guy has over fringe top 20 guy in my ranking.

Peaks are much tougher to me, because I think there is a significant gap between peak Bird and peak KD to me.

So you have a list that goes up to 25-30 players or more. How do you decide between all those players? Is there a definitive criteria that can be shown through ranking points? Why is KD at 24 and not 23 for example. Does that list go up to 50 or maybe 100?

[HeartBreakKid]

The takes in this thread are wild.

Bird peaked MUCH higher than KD.

Bird falls 6-8. LeBron is 2. KD top 15.

Bird is closer to Bron in peak and all time.

What happened to this place? Bird has been a top 5/fringe top 5 player forever. Now some of these kids won't put him in top 10?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I think these things called decades happened and they passed since Bird's career ended.