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As much as bron gets mentioned he hasn’t been discussed much this season, although he’s probably been better than last year since a poor start, and since ADs been out he’s probably been a top 3-5 guy in the league. He was kind of horrible for the first 10 games, but since he came back from playing through sickness he’s actually been great for awhile.

Otoh, the offensive coaching is quite good so it helps him a bit

Since he came back from sickness (so last 24 games he played/late November) he’s averaging

31.7-8.3-7.0 on 3.1 turnovers. Average +/- of +6.3 in those games. 53.3/31.6/78.6

3rd in scoring, 61.4TS


Esp since AD got hurt he took a bigger load and has been even better. 13 games

34.6-8.1-8 on 3.1 turnovers. Average +/- of +6.8 in that span as well. 55.5/25.0/80.6

So pretty insane mvp 2nd scoring behind luka, 62.9TS

Worth saying it’s not all empty stats either.

Since November 24th (28 games, 24 bron played)

On court Off rtg 120.6
Off court off rtg 105.9

On court def rtg 112.8
Off court def rtg 117.8

+19.8 net rtg overall

14-10 in that span

Since December 17 (16 games, 13 bron played)

On court Off rtg 122.6
Off court off rtg 104.7

On court def rtg 112.3
Off court def rtg 120.7

+26.2 net rtg overall

7-6 in that span

I’m curious, ability wise (so just how good you think he is ignore cumulative value of whatever) how would you rank him right now?

Personally, I think he’s probably top 5 or fringe top 5, but a playoff defensive jump + depending on how Jokic/Giannis/Curry/KD/Luka play could bump him up

Unfortunately, I watch NBA this season very rarely because I have a lot of different duties now. I think James is probably top 10 player in the league right now, I'm willing to listen people who watch him often if he's still top 5 material.

MAYBE top-10. I don't know man, I've been watching him and he's been playing great, but the fact that he's putting up numbers that are better than his prime numbers despite not having any semblance of a jumper, being a shell of his former self athletically, and playing on a team with relatively poor spacing is:

1. A testament to his basketball brain, dedication to optimizing his immense genetic gifts through discipline and hard work, and high skill level when it comes to footwork, handles, and passing.

2. A recalibration of today's game in terms of how much easier it is to put up eye-popping stats and efficiency than in prior eras.

He's not playing much defense nowadays, but he's like, 63,000 minutes into his career. The fact he just put up a near 50-point triple-double is insane. His touch off the glass, which has always been incredible, seems as effective as ever. I don't know the stats, but it seems like he's doing a lot of work in the paint.

It's really quite incredible. Even if he's just a top-20 player, that's way better than anybody else was in YEAR 20.

Top ten for sure.

What LBJ does right now is more indicative of the state of the league than him being still an elite player or something. As his team's record shows. Individual stats have never been more meaningless. He is putting better numbers now than he did in his prime.

Lol tbh I've been holding back this whole time because I feel like I'll get clowned.

I think there was a bit of confirmation bias going on at the end of last year/to start this season when he was playing sick and injured. People see any drop off in the numbers and are quick to chalk it up to him being old. But like, the skillset is still there. He's still either faster or stronger than most defenders and as long as that's the case he's going to mostly be the same guy.

He's just being held back by a bad supporting cast that does very little well and only serves to get in the way most of the time. The Lakers these last couple seasons are a bottom shooting team while also being one of the smallest teams in the league. That's obviously a recipe for disaster.

Last season the box score numbers didn't quite match up with the impact but that was with his minutes being sabotaged having to play center with Melo as his backline running mate. His efficiency may have gotten a boost playing C (although the spacing was still an issue so that's arguable) but his playmaking was suppressed with no play finishers and most of his minutes overlapping with Russ and other ball dominant guards that couldn't shoot. He was basically Adrian Dantley-ified while being put in lineups that were doomed to bottom out on D.

Turns out it's kinda hard to make a dent when the paint is packed, you can't punish the help by dishing the ball to horizontal or vertical spacers, and you have to protect the rim as a 37 year old combo forward with a bunch of guys who can't contain dribble penetration to save their lives. Who woulda thought?

I really don't know why people just chose to ignore that before confidently coming out with their "low level all-star" takes.

The best he could manage was to do his best KD impression and hope for the best. And he wasn't bad in that role a all, he had one of his best jump shooting years and nearly led the league in scoring on great efficiency.

Things are mostly the same this year as far as the makeup of the team goes but he's managing to make it work. The biggest difference is they've got better lineups to put around him in the absence of AD. Wenyen Gabriel is another undersized guy but he's been a surprisingly good defensive pairing with LeBron (107 DRtg with them on the court together, +22 on-court rating), he's developed a nice rhythm with Westbrook in AD's absence (+30 on court rating in that time), Schroder has been decent, and even though they bleed points with him on the court Thomas Bryant has been a very good play finisher on his passes.

His playmaking usage is also back up and his passing is as insane as ever, he's been squeezing interior passes through impossible windows on a nightly basis and his TOV% is the lowest its been since 09. Unfortunately everything falls apart when he's off the court though so it's hard for them to make up ground in the wins column.

I also think there's been some revisionist history about his 2020 season that makes current LeBron look worse in comparison. He wasn't exactly a blur in the half court that season either, people complained about his lack of burst as late as the WCF. But he's learned to make up for it by playing more bully ball and creating advantages off PnR. He's worse as a leaper now but he's adjusted as a below the rim finisher and is somehow on pace for the most dunks he's had since 2018.

His defense is a far cry from 2020 and 2021 (it's still good, he's fared well against Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, Sabonis, and other opposing bigs when they've stuck him on them) but I think that's also influenced by role. There's a pretty consistent trend his whole career where he's been a significantly more impactful when he's had legit rim protection behind him. He's a free safety guy/wing defender but this roster requires him to be on the back line to sure-up the interior and rebounding.

I won't put a number on it yet because I need to see everyone in a playoff environment but I really don't think there's been a significant drop-off since 2020/2021.

70sFan wrote:Unfortunately, I watch NBA this season very rarely because I have a lot of different duties now. I think James is probably top 10 player in the league right now, I'm willing to listen people who watch him often if he's still top 5 material.

Quick comment, I’m confused who tf put top 15 lmao that’s dumb as hell lol

I think the tough part about the top 5 is it’s pretty stacked right now

Jokic/Giannis/Curry/AD/Luka/Embiid/Durant are a pretty insane top tier. At the same time I don’t think lebron isn’t up there.

The issue with the Lakers is their lineups are atrocious, to an extent that it’s not really in his control. they’ve gotten better recently but when Reaves and Lonnie were in (and I love them) the Lakers played a lot 3-4 guard lineups.

Purely offensively, I don’t think the numbers overstate his impact. Where that puts him I’m not sure, but since his horrible 10 game start where a bunch of them he played sick, his offensive impact + raw numbers are better than any of his years since 2018.

The Lakers offense is 7th in the league during that span despite, and I think it’s 2nd if you take out the 4 games he missed (of 28)

Some of this was AD for sure, who was the Lakers best player (and imo best in the league) when healthy, but bron was more integral to the offense and has really stepped it up as of late. Lakers still are 9th on offense, but 3rd in the games bron played (he played 13/16 games). Lonnie and Reaves have been out for awhile too, Reaves is kind of fantastic, Lonnies been the only good high volume three point shooter for the team for a bit.

Brons been attacking using his off ball movement a bit more to alot of success. Passing has been pretty great, although not as it was in 2020 for example.

His halfcourt game isn’t quite what it used to be but he’s still great, gets stopped a bit imo but passing has been good, off ball has helped him get something going when his halfcourt game isn’t working. Still extremely effective and it’s felt like his midrange shots actually been pretty good. espexially lately, he’s been cutting more and his effeciency is actually the league leader I think, 100th percentile so even compared to the guys with only one or two possessions (1.86ppp)

He’s been good at being more physical instead of blowing by guys which is an adjustment he made after the first few games that really helped him

He’s averaging 10.1/16.3 inside the arc in the last 24, 11.8/18.2 since AD got hurt, so Jokic level effeciency. I don’t think anyone in the league is averaging more than 10.5, and the effeciency is about the same as Jokic inside the arc. His paint and rim finishing are at career high levels in volume and effeciency as well I think (rim for sure, paint I’m not 100% sure). Beyond that the Lakers offense with him on the court is at the same level as the nuggets offense with Jokic on the court and the mavs office as of late with Luka on the court. (Between the two). His ft shooting has been great


The main issue has been that he really doesn’t get any foul calls at all, and more so his three point shot has disappeared. He’s been insanely inconsistent from three, a few great games make his percentage higher than it is (25%, I know)

This might seem dumb but to demonstrate, Take out his top 4 games shooting the three, he is 4/47 from three. It’s been ridiculous to be honest.

It’s not a spacing issue or anything, it’s pretty much all pullup but it’s kind of absurd.


Offensively, I don’t know how I’d rate him overall. If it’s since he came back vs San Antonio, (so past 24) I’d think fringe top 5. AD was doing alot, brons skill was more scarce on the team though.

Since ADs been out, I feel he’s been top 3. Jokic is higher because Jokic, and Luka has just been able to will some games, but I’d probably take his offense over durants with the passing edge, and currys been hurt (and I think it’s very arguable over Curry in general, if he doesn’t continue his 2016 stretch from a bit earlier).

The thing is, while the impact and box score stuff honestly has been MVP level, they’ve struggled a lot in close games and some of that is on bron (most on coaching and Westbrook), but the offensive coaching, at least in terms of the system, has been fantastic.

Defense is where it’s interesting. I don’t think he’s been a negative defender in that stretch, nothing insane either but probably closer to solid than bad. The issue is the Lakers run some really small lineups for no reason, since those small lineups can’t really shoot either.

Bron defensicely his 1v1 game against faster guys hes either too slow or lazy, but he holds his own against bigger guys if the height advantage isn’t too much and breaks a lot of plays. Falls asleep on many of them too though


Overall I’d rank him fringe top 5 or top 5, with a viable avenue to be the best in the league in the playoffs.

Relative to last year the current bron with a bit better defense would have been very arguably the best player in the playoffs I think, so I think current bron has an Avenue to be the best in the league but it’s not all dependent on him

Also if we gauge RS Giannis has had a slow Year in that
regard


At the end of the day though, he’s taking a very poor offensive cast to a top 3 offense, so I do think that deserves a top 3 offensive spot with solid defense

Him playing center has been dumb on defense and doesn’t help much on offense either. Pf still I don’t like him being a main help defender rather than one that uses his iq to pop in and out. Makes some dumb plays and some great ones too.

So in terms of evaluating his raw ability, top 3-5 offense with decent defense, but not great man defense, sounds about right to me. Think that’s a top 5 player? The top 3 offensive guys all have varying defensive question marks relative to him. Could be convinced for KD to be higher too though.

If he goes to all Nba level defensively in the playoffs I think it’ll be comparable to his bubble year in some ways


A bit of a bigger issue is he hates the team though. You can tell he doesn’t like the pieces around him and he’s basically publically criticized the FO. There was a game against Charlotte or sac that we lost just because bron decided to stop trying for a whole quarter

Not lazy, like he legit wasn’t trying, it was really bad he wouldn’t go for loose balls or even really sprint and got benched for the rest of the quarter. Dropped 16 in the fourth but not enough.

I do want to emphasize the coaching offensively has been fantastic. Now, there are a metric ton of other issues with the defense and horrible lineups and horrible decisions but they’ve done a good job and helping bron succeed

Voted top ten because I am factoring the season all in all, but I think since coming back from his injuries he has gotten up to top 5 in the league for impact and production. Excluding tonight (a 48-9 game with O TOVs, +19 in an 8 point win) - LBJ has done this since start of December (/75):

- 31.5 Points
- 63.6% 2pFG / 62.0%TS (very low FT rate / egregiously bad whistle and cold 3P shooting)
- 7.3 Assists (6.0 at rim or 3-P)
- 8.0 Rebounds
- 2.8 TOV
- 79% FG at rim , ~45% mid-ranges
- 123.7 ORTG & 8.7 Net-Rating on floor (107.5 ORTG & -15.8 Net Rating off, lol)

Even with the meh outside shot, Bron has still found ways to be immensely impactful on offense and what's impressive is that this is one of Bron's less ball-dominant years (he's done a good job scoring more off the ball and playing off Russ / Schroder / Other guards as a scorer while having passing as good as ever and still playmaking pretty well). Essentially, flashes of what's 2010s onwards Bron as great as he is on offense are starting to become true for this season despite the slow start.

Defensively, I think he's been a slight positive and held up well in some matchups - though the Lakers situation is abysmal without AD on that end, especially with him off. Using a random situation more-so than gauging his defense in a vacuum, Bron most likely isn't playing Center on better teams and likely can exert more value though am not sure myself if he's all-NBA caliber (am confident with his O skills translating even if the volume isn't the exact same).

What to look for the rest of the season is how this trend holds up against elite defenses and better team and the general/rolling consistency of what he's doing. At this age and year, it's pretty arguable the best basketball ever played at higher performance points (1985 Kareem and early 2000s Karl probably the closest in that regard, definitely not Wizards Jordan) - i guess we'll see what the rest of the year holds.

ronnymac2 wrote:MAYBE top-10. I don't know man, I've been watching him and he's been playing great, but the fact that he's putting up numbers that are better than his prime numbers despite not having any semblance of a jumper, being a shell of his former self athletically, and playing on a team with relatively poor spacing is:

1. A testament to his basketball brain, dedication to optimizing his immense genetic gifts through discipline and hard work, and high skill level when it comes to footwork, handles, and passing.

2. A recalibration of today's game in terms of how much easier it is to put up eye-popping stats and efficiency than in prior eras.

He's not playing much defense nowadays, but he's like, 63,000 minutes into his career. The fact he just put up a near 50-point triple-double is insane. His touch off the glass, which has always been incredible, seems as effective as ever. I don't know the stats, but it seems like he's doing a lot of work in the paint.

It's really quite incredible. Even if he's just a top-20 player, that's way better than anybody else was in YEAR 20.

Yeah he’s scoring more efficiently inside the arc

Since 11/24 (24 games)
7.0/9.0 in the Restricted area
1.4/3.0 in the paint outside the R.A

Since 12/17 (13 games)
7.8/9.8 in the restricted area
1.8/3.4 in the paint outside the R.A

Second mark tied Zion throughout the year for most field goals made in the paint (better effeciency than Zion and Giannis too)

Hard to put someone who might miss the playoffs too high and he wasn't very good at the start. I think outside of the top 5 at least.

To be clear when I say right now I meant not counting his early start lol

So not evaluating his season as a whole but evaluating how he ranks as a player right now vs other players right now lol

Gooner wrote:What LBJ does right now is more indicative of the state of the league than him being still an elite player or something. As his team's record shows. Individual stats have never been more meaningless. He is putting better numbers now than he did in his prime.

- Nobody here and in most accounts (maybe excluding like Nick Wright lol) won't say these "better stats" (not even better, when you consider efficiency) indicate this is the most valuable he has been on offense.

- Him still producing - even if the league favors offense more than over - also is indicative of his basketball ability as well, shouldn't necessarily be a shocking basketball conclusion. And if that's the measuring stick, I hope the same standards are used for others who are playing well and putting some impressive/gaudy counting numbers this year including your teams' players.

- Team record doesn't show stats are meaningless, that is quite the buzz-word in general. On/off , lineup and roster context is needed as well - particularly the fact that Bron and AD are rarely playing together.

In a thread that's generally insightful, it is fairly easy to spot an odd-comment out - congratulations.

letskissbro wrote:There's a pretty consistent trend his whole career where he's been a significantly more impactful when he's had legit rim protection behind him. He's a free safety guy/wing defender but this roster requires him to be on the back line to sure-up the interior and rebounding.

I won't put a number on it yet because I need to see everyone in a playoff environment but I really don't think there's been a significant drop-off since 2020/2021.

Strong write-up overall, but I'm not sure about this bit. While 2009(his best looking defensive rs by a much of stuff a great looking playoffs) did see lebron operate less in the paint and more on the perimeter, I'd say his most impactful looking(with some strong granular/synergy stuff behind it as well) playoffs were 2015 and 2016 where he operated as a psuedo-big primary paint protector and those happen to be, at least from an impact perspective, his second and third best looking rs defenses. He also looks pretty great defensively from 11-13 where again, he was the clear primary paint protector.

Even in 2020(his best post-prime year defensively by any measure I think), you might remember he spent two series operating as the lakers primary paint deterrent while AD was put on lillard/harden. I think, at least when he had the prerequisite atheleticism, Lebron's imapct peaks when he has the oppurtunity to utilize his paint protection which is an aberration across history for non-bigs.

This may not be the case now with Lebron so old, but I don't think his teams having a need in the paint necessarily hurts him for most of his prime.

In terms of importance to his team, I think top three. No perimetre player — no, not even Luka — has quite this level of team-wide reliance and irreplaceability on both ends. And probably stays the same in a postseason setting, maybe more like top five depending, with an outside shot at still in year #20 being conceivably the most reliable guy to have then.

Feel pretty confident he's in the lower half of the top 10. Pretty confident in putting Luka, Jokic, Giannis, and Curry above him right now. Then the group of KD, Tatum, Embiid who are probably above him in most, but not all, situations due to their RS motor/impact.

After that I'd take him over anyone else.

No Sabonis respect in this thread

Jokic lapping the field right now.

Steph/Luka/Embiid a clear step ahead of LeBron.

I'd have Tatum/KD/Sabonis less of a clear step ahead, but still ahead.

On the level with - AD, Dame, Ja, Harden, Giannis (down this season), Zion, Jimmy, JJJ.

Haliburton, Lauri, Mitchell, Booker, SGA a half step behind.

I'll give LeBron the benefit of the doubt and give him a top 10, but I think 15 is just as likely.

Top 5 is fan boy territory.

Top 10

I voted top 10. Would take Giannis, Jokic, Luka, Steph, KD and Embiid over him. So around #7 probably. But I'm not sure I'm sold on Embiid who is a poor playoff performer and KD is injured so I can see Lebron at #5 and wouldn't have a problem with it.

Top 20, between 16-20.

With Lebron's Lakers sitting at a lowly 13th in the Western Conference, a case could be made for Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Steph, Tatum, Embiid, KD, Mitchell, Sabonis, Booker, JaM, SGA, Zion, Markkanen and AD over Lebron. That's 15 players.

Butler and Bam could join the 15 if they turn Miami's season around. Halliburton was contributing more to winning before he got injured. What about Pascal Siakam, Dame Lillard and Jaylen Brown?

ronnymac2 wrote:despite not having any semblance of a jumper,

Not sure I'm with you on that one.

If you're explicitly referring to 3pt shooting, yes. He's shooting under 30% from 3 on the season so far, some 5% worse than his career average. He was doing well in November and has been back to blowing from 3 since.

If you mean "jumper" more broadly, then it's worth noting that about 18.5% of his shots come from 10-23 feet, and he's shooting 35.6% from 10-16 feet (weak) and 45.8% from 16-23 feet (and that's the larger of the two proportions, 10.8% of his total shooting volume).

So he's got a perimeter jumper, his 3pt shooting just isn't falling., He's having the worst season of his career shooting from the corners (the highest-percentage of the 3pt shots), which is atypical and very far from his next-worse season there. He's shooting 33% on catch-and-shoot 3s, and was at 37.6% last season. It's an outlier down year from 3, for sure, but his jumper elsewhere seems to be fine. Perhaps his biggest issue isn't 3pt shooting at all, but how much the refs swallow their whistle in his defender's favor these past couple of seasons.