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Better Passer - Jokic or LeBron?
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 7:09 pm
by parsnips33
Title says it all - who's the better passer?
Re: Better Passer - Jokic or LeBron?
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 7:25 pm
by Colbinii
Just like LeBron is a better passer than many smaller yet comparable players because of angles he can utilize, Jokic has an advantage here in part because of that but also his passing is as fluid and creative as anyone ever--Nash and Magic included.
Re: Better Passer - Jokic or LeBron?
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 7:26 pm
by Proxy
My top passers OAT list goes Jokic -> Bird -> Magic -> LeBron
Re: Better Passer - Jokic or LeBron?
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 7:30 pm
by magicman1978
It terms of pure passing skills this is not close - Jokic is a much better passer.
Re: Better Passer - Jokic or LeBron?
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 7:35 pm
by rk2023
I think those are half of the best passers ever, along with Magic and Bird.
Arguments for LeBron:
• Better moving passer (especially while accelerating)
• Better passer while orchestrating and controlling the offense
Arguments for Jokic:
• Better stationary passer (think like how Walton and Bird made themselves good in this regard, Jokic does this with more upper body strength than both imo)
• Better one-handed passer, as granular as that is
• Better passer within the flow of offense
Re: Better Passer - Jokic or LeBron?
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 7:52 pm
by Matt15
Jokic rather handedly. Lebron is a tier below Jokic, Bird, Magic and Nash for me.
Re: Better Passer - Jokic or LeBron?
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:51 pm
by Ryoga Hibiki
My impression is that what Jokic has over the likes of LeBron and even Magic are his "soft" passes. The other two can throw cannon balls into any hole in the defense, but Jokic can also hit guys with these soft lobs that magically appear in the hand of his teammates that require an absolutely ridicolous level of timing, anticipation and precision.
Re: Better Passer - Jokic or LeBron?
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:31 pm
by Vox Populi
rk2023 wrote:Arguments for LeBron:
• Better moving passer (especially while accelerating)
• Better passer while orchestrating and controlling the offense
Arguments for Jokic:
• Better stationary passer (think like how Walton and Bird made themselves good in this regard, Jokic does this with more upper body strength than both imo)
• Better one-handed passer, as granular as that is
• Better passer within the flow of offense
I like the way you have laid this out. Hope you do not mind if I re-use your points.
I feel Lebron uses his passing more to put himself in better positions to score, lacking the 1-on-1 skills of an MJ. Whereas Jokic uses his passing purely to improve his team's play. So I gave Jokic the point about being a "better passer while orchestrating and controlling the offense", and moved it to the top of the list as I think it is the most important.
I also moved "better passer within the flow of offense" to second in the list, as that is next most important.
Arguments for Jokic:
• Better passer while orchestrating and controlling the offense
• Better passer within the flow of offense
• Better stationary passer (think like how Walton and Bird made themselves good in this regard, Jokic does this with more upper body strength than both imo)
• Better one-handed passer, as granular as that is
Arguments for LeBron:
• Better moving passer (especially while accelerating)
Re: Better Passer - Jokic or LeBron?
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:57 pm
by rk2023
Vox Populi wrote:rk2023 wrote:I think those are half of the best passers ever, along with Magic and Bird.
Arguments for LeBron:
• Better moving passer (especially while accelerating)
• Better passer while orchestrating and controlling the offense
Arguments for Jokic:
• Better stationary passer (think like how Walton and Bird made themselves good in this regard, Jokic does this with more upper body strength than both imo)
• Better one-handed passer, as granular as that is
• Better passer within the flow of offense
I like the way you have laid this out. Hope you do not mind if I re-use your points.
I feel Lebron mainly uses his passing to put himself in better positions to score, lacking the 1-on-1 skills of an MJ type player. Whereas Jokic uses his passing purely to improve his team's play. So I gave Jokic the point about being a "better passer while orchestrating and controlling the offense", and moved it to the top of the list as I think it is the most important.
I also moved "better passer within the flow of offense" to second in the list, as that is next most important.
Arguments for Jokic:
• Better passer while orchestrating and controlling the offense
• Better passer within the flow of offense
• Better stationary passer (think like how Walton and Bird made themselves good in this regard, Jokic does this with more upper body strength than both imo)
• Better one-handed passer, as granular as that is
Arguments for LeBron:
• Better moving passer (especially while accelerating)
Thank you for sharing your perspective! I agree in the regards that LeBron is a rare talent that's able to blend his scoring into passing to a point even surpassing that of Magic Johnson (albeit, Magic is a better passer and playmaker). I think Jokic does this to a lesser extent when inside the three-point line, but his top of the key passes are a sight to behold and an area I feel like he has over all three of Bird, LBJ, Magic.
Re: Better Passer - Jokic or LeBron?
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:58 pm
by No-more-rings
Lebron’s passing numbers maintain better in the postseason, that’s probably something worth discussing.
Re: Better Passer - Jokic or LeBron?
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:00 pm
by No-more-rings
Matt15 wrote:Jokic rather handedly. Lebron is a tier below Jokic, Bird, Magic and Nash for me.
I think Nash and Magic are in a tier of their own honestly.
Re: Better Passer - Jokic or LeBron?
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:38 am
by Peregrine01
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:My impression is that what Jokic has over the likes of LeBron and even Magic are his "soft" passes. The other two can throw cannon balls into any hole in the defense, but Jokic can also hit guys with these soft lobs that magically appear in the hand of his teammates that require an absolutely ridicolous level of timing, anticipation and precision.
Jokic throws post entry passes over the hands of a fronting defender from half court. He makes them look so easy that no one is stunned by them but literally no one attempts these passes, let alone completes them.
Re: Better Passer - Jokic or LeBron?
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 5:12 am
by OhayoKD
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:My impression is that what Jokic has over the likes of LeBron and even Magic are his "soft" passes. The other two can throw cannon balls into any hole in the defense, but Jokic can also hit guys with these soft lobs that magically appear in the hand of his teammates that require an absolutely ridicolous level of timing, anticipation and precision.
I think this describes the difference quite aptly.
Re: Better Passer - Jokic or LeBron?
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:46 am
by frica
Lebron has much better dribbling and can pass better from a dribble.
It's Jokic, but the above makes it a lot closer than the gap in passing skills would have you assume.
Re: Better Passer - Jokic or LeBron?
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:53 am
by zimpy27
Jokic is standstill and LeBron is moving.
Being a big who makes a lot of passes from the post, I feel like it's a lot easier to do that than from a live dribble. When you're at a standstill you don't have to wait for the ball to come back to your hand from a dribble to them pass, so timing is a lot easier IMO.
I think what LeBron does is more impressive from my perspective but keen to hear from people that have experience passing as a perimeter player off a live dribble
Re: Better Passer - Jokic or LeBron?
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 1:01 pm
by OhayoKD
zimpy27 wrote:Jokic is standstill and LeBron is moving.
Being a big who makes a lot of passes from the post, I feel like it's a lot easier to do that than from a live dribble. When you're at a standstill you don't have to wait for the ball to come back to your hand from a dribble to them pass, so timing is a lot easier IMO.
I think what LeBron does is more impressive from my perspective but keen to hear from people that have experience passing as a perimeter player off a live dribble
I think there's a trade-off tho in that static-passers are typically given less space than moving passers.
Movement also helps generate power which might be harder to replicate if you're doing it from one spot
Re: Better Passer - Jokic or LeBron?
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 1:09 pm
by Ryoga Hibiki
zimpy27 wrote:Jokic is standstill and LeBron is moving.
Being a big who makes a lot of passes from the post, I feel like it's a lot easier to do that than from a live dribble. When you're at a standstill you don't have to wait for the ball to come back to your hand from a dribble to them pass, so timing is a lot easier IMO.
I think what LeBron does is more impressive from my perspective but keen to hear from people that have experience passing as a perimeter player off a live dribble
it requires different skills, but off the dribble you are controlling your movement on the court and you can create the angles for a pass even if your teammates don't move or just go on straight line.
from a standstill you are not moving but there are likely four guys screening and cutting and four extra defenders follwing them or coming at you. that's much more to process and often it requires a higher level of manupulation/anticipation.
of course it depends on the actual play, but not moving you have one less weapon to create the opening.
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Re: Better Passer - Jokic or LeBron?
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 1:21 pm
by 1993Playoffs
I get confused when people say LeBron is a tier below the absolute best passers in history. Like what’s the reasoning for it.
Re: Better Passer - Jokic or LeBron?
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 1:34 pm
by HeartBreakKid
1993Playoffs wrote:I get confused when people say LeBron is a tier below the absolute best passers in history. Like what’s the reasoning for it.
His passes aren't cool looking enough.
Re: Better Passer - Jokic or LeBron?
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:20 pm
by 70sFan
HeartBreakKid wrote:1993Playoffs wrote:I get confused when people say LeBron is a tier below the absolute best passers in history. Like what’s the reasoning for it.
His passes aren't cool looking enough.
I don't really think that's the reason.