RealGM

Who had the better playoffs?

I think Wade run might be a bit more impressive, even though overall I probably prefer Giannis for his defense.

70sFan wrote:I think Wade run might be a bit more impressive, even though overall I probably prefer Giannis for his defense.

I think the ecf injury makes me consider wade here. You usually don't get away with that.

OhayoKD wrote:

70sFan wrote:I think Wade run might be a bit more impressive, even though overall I probably prefer Giannis for his defense.

I think the ecf injury makes me consider wade here. You usually don't get away with that.

If you consider what Giannis potential injury could have been, I mean that looked really scary, it may be enough to offset.

They were both incredible in the Finals but I think Wade was a little bit better during the East bracket.

70sFan wrote:I think Wade run might be a bit more impressive, even though overall I probably prefer Giannis for his defense.

That seems fair. Not sure I agree completely but I understand it.

dygaction wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

70sFan wrote:I think Wade run might be a bit more impressive, even though overall I probably prefer Giannis for his defense.

I think the ecf injury makes me consider wade here. You usually don't get away with that.

If you consider what Giannis potential injury could have been, I mean that looked really scary, it may be enough to offset.

I’m not sure what the point of this rebuttal is, but let me just say that missing games absolutely should factor in and in Giannis case 2 of them in an ecf I believe. If your team isn’t good enough to win without you, that can literally cost a series.

No-more-rings wrote:

70sFan wrote:I think Wade run might be a bit more impressive, even though overall I probably prefer Giannis for his defense.

That seems fair. Not sure I agree completely but I understand it.

dygaction wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:I think the ecf injury makes me consider wade here. You usually don't get away with that.

If you consider what Giannis potential injury could have been, I mean that looked really scary, it may be enough to offset.

I’m not sure what the point of this rebuttal is, but let me just say that missing games absolutely should factor in and in Giannis case 2 of them in an ecf I believe. If your team isn’t good enough to win without you, that can literally cost a series.

At the same time bro had a historic finals with one knee lol

I think playing well through an injury is bonus points for a lot of people

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

70sFan wrote:I think Wade run might be a bit more impressive, even though overall I probably prefer Giannis for his defense.

That seems fair. Not sure I agree completely but I understand it.

dygaction wrote:
If you consider what Giannis potential injury could have been, I mean that looked really scary, it may be enough to offset.

I’m not sure what the point of this rebuttal is, but let me just say that missing games absolutely should factor in and in Giannis case 2 of them in an ecf I believe. If your team isn’t good enough to win without you, that can literally cost a series.

At the same time bro had a historic finals with one knee lol

I think playing well through an injury is bonus points for a lot of people

Eh but i mean you’re comparing him to Wade who was perpetually injured, so not sure it’s really bonus points as you say.

No-more-rings wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:That seems fair. Not sure I agree completely but I understand it.
I’m not sure what the point of this rebuttal is, but let me just say that missing games absolutely should factor in and in Giannis case 2 of them in an ecf I believe. If your team isn’t good enough to win without you, that can literally cost a series.

At the same time bro had a historic finals with one knee lol

I think playing well through an injury is bonus points for a lot of people

Eh but i mean you’re comparing him to Wade who was perpetually injured, so not sure it’s really bonus points as you say.

Was Wade hurt in 06?

From what I remember Giannis almost missed the start of the next year lol, and he was about a stretch from tearing an ACL/MCL after coming back per his own words.

I’m not really looking at a dude playing on one leg dropping historic stuff and thinking about the two games he missed lmao

Not saying he clears but I feel it’s kinda lame to hold it against him when it’s probably something that props him up more than anything.

I think Wade had the more dominant playoff run. Giannis' play up through almost the first half of the Bucks vs Nets series hurts him when comparing samples that are so small.

Wade in the 06 postseason, Inflation Adjusted (adjusted to a 110-league average).

•) 28.9 points
•) +7.1 opp. adjusted rTS%


PS Backpicks BPM-7
PS RAPTOR-9.88
PS BPM-9.3
PS AuPM/G-5.5


2021 Giannis in the PS

•) 29 points
•) +3.1 opp. adjusted rTS%

PS Backpicks BPM-6.56
PS RAPTOR-6.6
PS BPM-9.9
PS AuPM/G-4.5


What is remarkable about Wade's 06 PS run that he won a championship with was that his based on a slightly older version of AUPM; his Cast's AuPM/G was a solid negative (Relative AuPM value of the 2nd through the 8th-best player on a team, among players who logged at least 40 percent of team’s minutes. Value is relative to +0.75.). This means that his cast was below average (0 is average), by a notable margin, yet he was able to take such a team to championship heights at such a young age.

For reference for how historical a feat this is, AuPM/G goes back to 1997. Wade's 06 supporting cast is the WEAKEST EVER to win a championship going up to 2021(according to the article on the Backpicks site. I would need to calculate the 22 Warriors). 06 Wade's run was nothing short of amazing.

I think the value he has shown in that he had a +22.2 on-off net swing.

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
Was Wade hurt in 06?

From what I remember Giannis almost missed the start of the next year lol, and he was about a stretch from tearing an ACL/MCL after coming back per his own words.

I’m not really looking at a dude playing on one leg dropping historic stuff and thinking about the two games he missed lmao

Not saying he clears but I feel it’s kinda lame to hold it against him when it’s probably something that props him up more than anything.

I mean he had time to rest, and no one can be that crippled if they’re playing the way he did.

I think we can aknowledge his comeback and subsequent performance from that injury was impressive, but you I wouldn’t call missing 2 games in a 7 game series meaningless. Wade would’ve had a 0-2 hole to come back from if he missed two games like that. That’s something you can say for a lot of important series though if the best player sits. I don’t agree we can just say it doesn’t matter because of what he did afterwards. It sounds like you think Giannis is just the better player either way, which is fine but I don’t really agree on the bonus points thing. But again though you’re talking about Wade who had cronic knee issues over the course of his career so the “playing on one knee” comment sounds like a moot point really on top of just being false anyhow.

No-more-rings wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
Was Wade hurt in 06?

From what I remember Giannis almost missed the start of the next year lol, and he was about a stretch from tearing an ACL/MCL after coming back per his own words.

I’m not really looking at a dude playing on one leg dropping historic stuff and thinking about the two games he missed lmao

Not saying he clears but I feel it’s kinda lame to hold it against him when it’s probably something that props him up more than anything.

I mean he had time to rest, and no one can be that crippled if they’re playing the way he did.

I think we can aknowledge his comeback and subsequent performance from that injury was impressive, but you I wouldn’t call missing 2 games in a 7 game series meaningless. Wade would’ve had a 0-2 hole to come back from if he missed two games like that. That’s something you can say for a lot of important series though if the best player sits. I don’t agree we can just say it doesn’t matter because of what he did afterwards. It sounds like you think Giannis is just the better player either way, which is fine but I don’t really agree on the bonus points thing. But again though you’re talking about Wade who had cronic knee issues over the course of his career so the “playing on one knee” comment sounds like a moot point really on top of just being false anyhow.

1. We can go on about how his actual literal value dropped a bit because he missed two games of the finals but for an injury that probably would have had him out for awhile, considering he missed the first half of training camp, 3 months later, and had to go through a ramp up phase.

Like, here’s the thing. When I’m evaluating giannis’s season, I’m not looking at it thinking, well he fell in a way where he probably should have been out for the whole next season (watch the injury and tell me that’s an exaggeration), ended up with a decently bad knee injury where “something” was fully torn, that would have kept him out for 2-3 months (didn’t play for the first half of training camp and had to have a ramp up phase), and put up one of the best finals ever

Like yeah sure we can be nerds and put our pinkies up and say “oh well by the standpoint of cumalative value had he never gotten hurt at all he would have had more value hohohoho” or we can say yeah that was badass let’s give him credit for that instead of being lame as hell. If Giannis missing 2 games is a bigger deal than him playing on a fresh knee injury.

There’s a difference between having knee issues and playing through a fresh injury. He said he was still in pain during media day iirc too.

As for him having time to rest and him not being that crippled, to be clear he

Per Giannis himself:

September 29:

“I shouldn’t have played in Game 1 of the NBA Finals. I was in a lot of pain. I’m still hurting. But I’ll be okay.”

And the most we’ve gotten on what the injury actually was

“If my leg had hyperextended one more time, I was done. There’s nothing to cut that was there. It was torn already. It was out — (the piece that) protected me from an MCL or ACL (tear). There’s a thing in your leg that protects you when you hyperextend (your knee) that doesn’t let you go all the way back. So that thing was torn. So if I had gone all the way back again, that’d be it for me.”

Per Bobby Portis

I witnessed a man drop 50 on damn near one leg to win the Finals. Right now, that’s No. 1 for me. I was right there. Being able to be here, see how hard he works and see him hurt his leg then come back but still dominate how he did, that was crazy.

So like, unless we’re gonna start saying Giannis of all people is a capper, he had a really bad hyperextended knee that probably is a multi ligament tear for 99% of nba players (pause it and try saying otherwise), still fully freshly tore something in his knee that was the main thing that stops him from tearing an ACL or MCL, it was severe enough that he was still in pain after 3 months of rest since couldn’t play for the first half of training camp and needed a ramp up, and he dropped a historic finals performance. Let’s not try to say the injury was less severe than it was just because he played well.


The reason his finals performance was absurd goes beyond just his raw performance itself which was already historic, but yeah he did do it crippled pretty bad. We can say that he clearly wasn’t that hurt because he ate Arizona “on damn near one leg”, or we can just say yeah people said it was pretty bad so him doing it is crazy

I’m pretty open to arguments for wade here, but the augment being based around the thing that elevates giannis’s run to anyone that starts remembering basketball isn’t about hypothetical simulations in our head but what actually happened isn’t one of them lol. I could go the extra route and say any other player who fell like Giannis would have missed the finals too. Comparing Giannis playing off freshly tearing something in his knee to Wade having general injury trouble (which I don’t see as that relevant since we’re talking 06) is a bit silly to me.

In any case, had Giannis had a horrible series I don’t think anyone would have held it against him, it would have been a pretty simple yeah he was hurt no way he could have done well like that. That he was historic under those conditions is ridiculous even in the context of other historic finals

Missing those games were meaningless because it worked out. If you want to dock him points because in a hypothetical simulation other guys missed two games they would lose those games maybe, but then why don’t we boost Giannis points for missing 2 games instead of having a career altering injury like anyone else would have had in that situations because his ligaments were just built different.

All of he above is meaningless because we’re really just talking about random hypotheticals that didn’t happen. Does Giannis get hurt at all if we run the season back? Does he tear multiple ligaments if we replay the fall? Does Giannis without the injury have the greatest finals ever?

Who knows lol. There comes a point when evaluating a season we should look at what happened in that season rather than try to look at it in a vacuum of situations


Yes, I agree most of the time a playoff injury does seriously hinder a guys value for that playoffs of course.


The fact that he and back from injury months early when he could have easily missed the entire finals without anyone blaming him and then putting up one of the best finals performances of all time absolutely, 100% makes up for it unless you’re looking at it in the most robotic and lame possible way ever, because it’s pretty damn epic lol.

Some might disagree with me and argue about some objective value that he lost because of his injury and that the injury does nothing but hurt his objective CORP value or whatever and that’s fine but it’s also kind of lame to do so lol



Again, I’d be pretty open to this being Wade lol, he was insane in the 06 playoffs of course. My gut tells me Giannis just because I do think his defense was a genuine High tier DPOY level guy, and we have some evidence of RS Giannis before that being a all time level candidate in terms of his impact on defense, but Wade was insaneeeee
And could easily be argued to have been better throughout



I just don’t think “Giannis missed two games” makes sense as a counterpoint when the situation around that is what elevates his run for a lot of people.

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
Was Wade hurt in 06?

From what I remember Giannis almost missed the start of the next year lol, and he was about a stretch from tearing an ACL/MCL after coming back per his own words.

I’m not really looking at a dude playing on one leg dropping historic stuff and thinking about the two games he missed lmao

Not saying he clears but I feel it’s kinda lame to hold it against him when it’s probably something that props him up more than anything.

I mean he had time to rest, and no one can be that crippled if they’re playing the way he did.

I think we can aknowledge his comeback and subsequent performance from that injury was impressive, but you I wouldn’t call missing 2 games in a 7 game series meaningless. Wade would’ve had a 0-2 hole to come back from if he missed two games like that. That’s something you can say for a lot of important series though if the best player sits. I don’t agree we can just say it doesn’t matter because of what he did afterwards. It sounds like you think Giannis is just the better player either way, which is fine but I don’t really agree on the bonus points thing. But again though you’re talking about Wade who had cronic knee issues over the course of his career so the “playing on one knee” comment sounds like a moot point really on top of just being false anyhow.

1. We can go on about how his actual literal value dropped a bit because he missed two games of the finals but for an injury that probably would have had him out for awhile, considering he missed the first half of training camp, 3 months later, and had to go through a ramp up phase.

Like, here’s the thing. When I’m evaluating giannis’s season, I’m not looking at it thinking, well he fell in a way where he probably should have been out for the whole next season (watch the injury and tell me that’s an exaggeration), ended up with a decently bad knee injury where “something” was fully torn, that would have kept him out for 2-3 months (didn’t play for the first half of training camp and had to have a ramp up phase), and put up one of the best finals ever

Like yeah sure we can be nerds and put our pinkies up and say “oh well by the standpoint of cumalative value had he never gotten hurt at all he would have had more value hohohoho” or we can say yeah that was badass let’s give him credit for that instead of being lame as hell. If Giannis missing 2 games is a bigger deal than him playing on a fresh knee injury.

There’s a difference between having knee issues and playing through a fresh injury. He said he was still in pain during media day iirc too.

As for him having time to rest and him not being that crippled, to be clear he

Per Giannis himself:

September 29:

“I shouldn’t have played in Game 1 of the NBA Finals. I was in a lot of pain. I’m still hurting. But I’ll be okay.”

And the most we’ve gotten on what the injury actually was

“If my leg had hyperextended one more time, I was done. There’s nothing to cut that was there. It was torn already. It was out — (the piece that) protected me from an MCL or ACL (tear). There’s a thing in your leg that protects you when you hyperextend (your knee) that doesn’t let you go all the way back. So that thing was torn. So if I had gone all the way back again, that’d be it for me.”

Per Bobby Portis

I witnessed a man drop 50 on damn near one leg to win the Finals. Right now, that’s No. 1 for me. I was right there. Being able to be here, see how hard he works and see him hurt his leg then come back but still dominate how he did, that was crazy.

So like, unless we’re gonna start saying Giannis of all people is a capper, he had a really bad hyperextended knee that probably is a multi ligament tear for 99% of nba players (pause it and try saying otherwise), still fully freshly tore something in his knee that was the main thing that stops him from tearing an ACL or MCL, it was severe enough that he was still in pain after 3 months of rest since couldn’t play for the first half of training camp and needed a ramp up, and he dropped a historic finals performance. Let’s not try to say the injury was less severe than it was just because he played well.


The reason his finals performance was absurd goes beyond just his raw performance itself which was already historic, but yeah he did do it crippled pretty bad. We can say that he clearly wasn’t that hurt because he ate Arizona “on damn near one leg”, or we can just say yeah people said it was pretty bad so him doing it is crazy

I’m pretty open to arguments for wade here, but the augment being based around the thing that elevates giannis’s run to anyone that starts remembering basketball isn’t about hypothetical simulations in our head but what actually happened isn’t one of them lol. I could go the extra route and say any other player who fell like Giannis would have missed the finals too. Comparing Giannis playing off freshly tearing something in his knee to Wade having general injury trouble (which I don’t see as that relevant since we’re talking 06) is a bit silly to me.

In any case, had Giannis had a horrible series I don’t think anyone would have held it against him, it would have been a pretty simple yeah he was hurt no way he could have done well like that. That he was historic under those conditions is ridiculous even in the context of other historic finals

Missing those games were meaningless because it worked out. If you want to dock him points because in a hypothetical simulation other guys missed two games they would lose those games maybe, but then why don’t we boost Giannis points for missing 2 games instead of having a career altering injury like anyone else would have had in that situations because his ligaments were just built different.

All of he above is meaningless because we’re really just talking about random hypotheticals that didn’t happen. Does Giannis get hurt at all if we run the season back? Does he tear multiple ligaments if we replay the fall? Does Giannis without the injury have the greatest finals ever?

Who knows lol. There comes a point when evaluating a season we should look at what happened in that season rather than try to look at it in a vacuum of situations


Yes, I agree most of the time a playoff injury does seriously hinder a guys value for that playoffs of course.


The fact that he and back from injury months early when he could have easily missed the entire finals without anyone blaming him and then putting up one of the best finals performances of all time absolutely, 100% makes up for it unless you’re looking at it in the most robotic and lame possible way ever, because it’s pretty damn epic lol.

Some might disagree with me and argue about some objective value that he lost because of his injury and that the injury does nothing but hurt his objective CORP value or whatever and that’s fine but it’s also kind of lame to do so lol



Again, I’d be pretty open to this being Wade lol, he was insane in the 06 playoffs of course. My gut tells me Giannis just because I do think his defense was a genuine High tier DPOY level guy, and we have some evidence of RS Giannis before that being a all time level candidate in terms of his impact on defense, but Wade was insaneeeee
And could easily be argued to have been better throughout



I just don’t think “Giannis missed two games” makes sense as a counterpoint when the situation around that is what elevates his run for a lot of people.

Well, that's just your opinion that it didn't matter. You already acknowledged that for many superstars that such an injury would have proved devastating to their team's chances. Wade being injured in the 05 ECF, is probably the #1 reason the Heat didn't make it to the Finals that year. That in it of itself is significant. The fact that someone significantly worse than Giannis has to fill in for him, in order to win, lowers the team's probability of winning. In comparison to someone else who had a terrific PS run, it is fair to argue that loss in value lowers him below Wade, even if it isn't the #1 reason. Not everyone cares for the narrative argument that Giannis came back heroically playing through an injury. It is a cool story, but the games missed do matter in some people's evaluations.

You say Wade always had knee issues, and that is true; Giannis too seemingly has had knee issues, which is the majority of the reason he has missed the games he has over the last couple of years.

IIRC wade benefited from a historically favorable whistle during that run. I'm pretty sure there's a video of him literally tripping over his own feet 100% untouched and going to the line. In the playoffs.

YesEmbiid711 wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:I mean he had time to rest, and no one can be that crippled if they’re playing the way he did.

I think we can aknowledge his comeback and subsequent performance from that injury was impressive, but you I wouldn’t call missing 2 games in a 7 game series meaningless. Wade would’ve had a 0-2 hole to come back from if he missed two games like that. That’s something you can say for a lot of important series though if the best player sits. I don’t agree we can just say it doesn’t matter because of what he did afterwards. It sounds like you think Giannis is just the better player either way, which is fine but I don’t really agree on the bonus points thing. But again though you’re talking about Wade who had cronic knee issues over the course of his career so the “playing on one knee” comment sounds like a moot point really on top of just being false anyhow.

1. We can go on about how his actual literal value dropped a bit because he missed two games of the finals but for an injury that probably would have had him out for awhile, considering he missed the first half of training camp, 3 months later, and had to go through a ramp up phase.

Like, here’s the thing. When I’m evaluating giannis’s season, I’m not looking at it thinking, well he fell in a way where he probably should have been out for the whole next season (watch the injury and tell me that’s an exaggeration), ended up with a decently bad knee injury where “something” was fully torn, that would have kept him out for 2-3 months (didn’t play for the first half of training camp and had to have a ramp up phase), and put up one of the best finals ever

Like yeah sure we can be nerds and put our pinkies up and say “oh well by the standpoint of cumalative value had he never gotten hurt at all he would have had more value hohohoho” or we can say yeah that was badass let’s give him credit for that instead of being lame as hell. If Giannis missing 2 games is a bigger deal than him playing on a fresh knee injury.

There’s a difference between having knee issues and playing through a fresh injury. He said he was still in pain during media day iirc too.

As for him having time to rest and him not being that crippled, to be clear he

Per Giannis himself:

September 29:

“I shouldn’t have played in Game 1 of the NBA Finals. I was in a lot of pain. I’m still hurting. But I’ll be okay.”

And the most we’ve gotten on what the injury actually was

“If my leg had hyperextended one more time, I was done. There’s nothing to cut that was there. It was torn already. It was out — (the piece that) protected me from an MCL or ACL (tear). There’s a thing in your leg that protects you when you hyperextend (your knee) that doesn’t let you go all the way back. So that thing was torn. So if I had gone all the way back again, that’d be it for me.”

Per Bobby Portis

I witnessed a man drop 50 on damn near one leg to win the Finals. Right now, that’s No. 1 for me. I was right there. Being able to be here, see how hard he works and see him hurt his leg then come back but still dominate how he did, that was crazy.

So like, unless we’re gonna start saying Giannis of all people is a capper, he had a really bad hyperextended knee that probably is a multi ligament tear for 99% of nba players (pause it and try saying otherwise), still fully freshly tore something in his knee that was the main thing that stops him from tearing an ACL or MCL, it was severe enough that he was still in pain after 3 months of rest since couldn’t play for the first half of training camp and needed a ramp up, and he dropped a historic finals performance. Let’s not try to say the injury was less severe than it was just because he played well.


The reason his finals performance was absurd goes beyond just his raw performance itself which was already historic, but yeah he did do it crippled pretty bad. We can say that he clearly wasn’t that hurt because he ate Arizona “on damn near one leg”, or we can just say yeah people said it was pretty bad so him doing it is crazy

I’m pretty open to arguments for wade here, but the augment being based around the thing that elevates giannis’s run to anyone that starts remembering basketball isn’t about hypothetical simulations in our head but what actually happened isn’t one of them lol. I could go the extra route and say any other player who fell like Giannis would have missed the finals too. Comparing Giannis playing off freshly tearing something in his knee to Wade having general injury trouble (which I don’t see as that relevant since we’re talking 06) is a bit silly to me.

In any case, had Giannis had a horrible series I don’t think anyone would have held it against him, it would have been a pretty simple yeah he was hurt no way he could have done well like that. That he was historic under those conditions is ridiculous even in the context of other historic finals

Missing those games were meaningless because it worked out. If you want to dock him points because in a hypothetical simulation other guys missed two games they would lose those games maybe, but then why don’t we boost Giannis points for missing 2 games instead of having a career altering injury like anyone else would have had in that situations because his ligaments were just built different.

All of he above is meaningless because we’re really just talking about random hypotheticals that didn’t happen. Does Giannis get hurt at all if we run the season back? Does he tear multiple ligaments if we replay the fall? Does Giannis without the injury have the greatest finals ever?

Who knows lol. There comes a point when evaluating a season we should look at what happened in that season rather than try to look at it in a vacuum of situations


Yes, I agree most of the time a playoff injury does seriously hinder a guys value for that playoffs of course.


The fact that he and back from injury months early when he could have easily missed the entire finals without anyone blaming him and then putting up one of the best finals performances of all time absolutely, 100% makes up for it unless you’re looking at it in the most robotic and lame possible way ever, because it’s pretty damn epic lol.

Some might disagree with me and argue about some objective value that he lost because of his injury and that the injury does nothing but hurt his objective CORP value or whatever and that’s fine but it’s also kind of lame to do so lol



Again, I’d be pretty open to this being Wade lol, he was insane in the 06 playoffs of course. My gut tells me Giannis just because I do think his defense was a genuine High tier DPOY level guy, and we have some evidence of RS Giannis before that being a all time level candidate in terms of his impact on defense, but Wade was insaneeeee
And could easily be argued to have been better throughout



I just don’t think “Giannis missed two games” makes sense as a counterpoint when the situation around that is what elevates his run for a lot of people.

Well, that's just your opinion that it didn't matter. You already acknowledged that for many superstars that such an injury would have proved devastating to their team's chances. Wade being injured in the 05 ECF, is probably the #1 reason the Heat didn't make it to the Finals that year. That in it of itself is significant. The fact that someone significantly worse than Giannis has to fill in for him, in order to win, lowers the team's probability of winning. In comparison to someone else who had a terrific PS run, it is fair to argue that loss in value lowers him below Wade, even if it isn't the #1 reason. Not everyone cares for the narrative argument that Giannis came back heroically playing through an injury. It is a cool story, but the games missed do matter in some people's evaluations.

You say Wade always had knee issues, and that is true; Giannis too seemingly has had knee issues, which is the majority of the reason he has missed the games he has over the last couple of years.

The hell? It’s not my opinion that it didn’t matter lmao, it literally did not matter, unless I find out the hawks actually won.

You can argue that it matters for someone’s evaluations and that’s fine. But again, I think it’s valid to say that looking at the dude playing historic on one knee that hyperfocusing on him missing two games which didn’t practically matter other than our hypothetical simulations is lame lol.

He played after tearing something fresh in his knee and missed the first half of training camp after resting the next three months and said he was in pain. I’m not trying to hear general knee soreness lol most guys sit out those finals. We give stars passes for bad performance through injuries and I think that’s fine and I do that to, but when someone does something absurd like this should we not give extra props?

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

YesEmbiid711 wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

1. We can go on about how his actual literal value dropped a bit because he missed two games of the finals but for an injury that probably would have had him out for awhile, considering he missed the first half of training camp, 3 months later, and had to go through a ramp up phase.

Like, here’s the thing. When I’m evaluating giannis’s season, I’m not looking at it thinking, well he fell in a way where he probably should have been out for the whole next season (watch the injury and tell me that’s an exaggeration), ended up with a decently bad knee injury where “something” was fully torn, that would have kept him out for 2-3 months (didn’t play for the first half of training camp and had to have a ramp up phase), and put up one of the best finals ever

Like yeah sure we can be nerds and put our pinkies up and say “oh well by the standpoint of cumalative value had he never gotten hurt at all he would have had more value hohohoho” or we can say yeah that was badass let’s give him credit for that instead of being lame as hell. If Giannis missing 2 games is a bigger deal than him playing on a fresh knee injury.

There’s a difference between having knee issues and playing through a fresh injury. He said he was still in pain during media day iirc too.

As for him having time to rest and him not being that crippled, to be clear he

Per Giannis himself:

September 29:



And the most we’ve gotten on what the injury actually was



Per Bobby Portis




So like, unless we’re gonna start saying Giannis of all people is a capper, he had a really bad hyperextended knee that probably is a multi ligament tear for 99% of nba players (pause it and try saying otherwise), still fully freshly tore something in his knee that was the main thing that stops him from tearing an ACL or MCL, it was severe enough that he was still in pain after 3 months of rest since couldn’t play for the first half of training camp and needed a ramp up, and he dropped a historic finals performance. Let’s not try to say the injury was less severe than it was just because he played well.


The reason his finals performance was absurd goes beyond just his raw performance itself which was already historic, but yeah he did do it crippled pretty bad. We can say that he clearly wasn’t that hurt because he ate Arizona “on damn near one leg”, or we can just say yeah people said it was pretty bad so him doing it is crazy

I’m pretty open to arguments for wade here, but the augment being based around the thing that elevates giannis’s run to anyone that starts remembering basketball isn’t about hypothetical simulations in our head but what actually happened isn’t one of them lol. I could go the extra route and say any other player who fell like Giannis would have missed the finals too. Comparing Giannis playing off freshly tearing something in his knee to Wade having general injury trouble (which I don’t see as that relevant since we’re talking 06) is a bit silly to me.

In any case, had Giannis had a horrible series I don’t think anyone would have held it against him, it would have been a pretty simple yeah he was hurt no way he could have done well like that. That he was historic under those conditions is ridiculous even in the context of other historic finals

Missing those games were meaningless because it worked out. If you want to dock him points because in a hypothetical simulation other guys missed two games they would lose those games maybe, but then why don’t we boost Giannis points for missing 2 games instead of having a career altering injury like anyone else would have had in that situations because his ligaments were just built different.

All of he above is meaningless because we’re really just talking about random hypotheticals that didn’t happen. Does Giannis get hurt at all if we run the season back? Does he tear multiple ligaments if we replay the fall? Does Giannis without the injury have the greatest finals ever?

Who knows lol. There comes a point when evaluating a season we should look at what happened in that season rather than try to look at it in a vacuum of situations


Yes, I agree most of the time a playoff injury does seriously hinder a guys value for that playoffs of course.


The fact that he and back from injury months early when he could have easily missed the entire finals without anyone blaming him and then putting up one of the best finals performances of all time absolutely, 100% makes up for it unless you’re looking at it in the most robotic and lame possible way ever, because it’s pretty damn epic lol.

Some might disagree with me and argue about some objective value that he lost because of his injury and that the injury does nothing but hurt his objective CORP value or whatever and that’s fine but it’s also kind of lame to do so lol



Again, I’d be pretty open to this being Wade lol, he was insane in the 06 playoffs of course. My gut tells me Giannis just because I do think his defense was a genuine High tier DPOY level guy, and we have some evidence of RS Giannis before that being a all time level candidate in terms of his impact on defense, but Wade was insaneeeee
And could easily be argued to have been better throughout



I just don’t think “Giannis missed two games” makes sense as a counterpoint when the situation around that is what elevates his run for a lot of people.

Well, that's just your opinion that it didn't matter. You already acknowledged that for many superstars that such an injury would have proved devastating to their team's chances. Wade being injured in the 05 ECF, is probably the #1 reason the Heat didn't make it to the Finals that year. That in it of itself is significant. The fact that someone significantly worse than Giannis has to fill in for him, in order to win, lowers the team's probability of winning. In comparison to someone else who had a terrific PS run, it is fair to argue that loss in value lowers him below Wade, even if it isn't the #1 reason. Not everyone cares for the narrative argument that Giannis came back heroically playing through an injury. It is a cool story, but the games missed do matter in some people's evaluations.

You say Wade always had knee issues, and that is true; Giannis too seemingly has had knee issues, which is the majority of the reason he has missed the games he has over the last couple of years.

The hell? It’s not my opinion that it didn’t matter lmao, it literally did not matter, unless I find out the hawks actually won.

You can argue that it matters for someone’s evaluations and that’s fine. But again, I think it’s valid to say that looking at the dude playing historic on one knee that hyperfocusing on him missing two games which didn’t practically matter other than our hypothetical simulations is lame lol.

He played after tearing something fresh in his knee and missed the first half of training camp after resting the next three months and said he was in pain. I’m not trying to hear general knee soreness lol most guys sit out those finals. We give stars passes for bad performance through injuries and I think that’s fine and I do that to, but when someone does something absurd like this should we not give extra props?

Don't take everything so literally; I am saying it matters I'm people's evaluations because people don't believe it is a guarantee that the Bucks are so successful in the time Giannis misses; it could also be used as a sticking point to argue that perhaps Giannis isn't as valuable as we perceived.

You're calling other people's methods lame as if your method of evaluation is automatically superior. Things aren't so black and white. There is nothing wrong for crediting Wade for having better health during a PS run.

And no, Giannis doesn't deserve a boost in how terms of how good he was after he got injured. He played well, but you don't get style points for playing through injury.

And once again, that knee soreness is similar to what Wade had to deal with throughout his career. We don't know the full extent of Giannia' knee issues.

YesEmbiid711 wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

YesEmbiid711 wrote:
Well, that's just your opinion that it didn't matter. You already acknowledged that for many superstars that such an injury would have proved devastating to their team's chances. Wade being injured in the 05 ECF, is probably the #1 reason the Heat didn't make it to the Finals that year. That in it of itself is significant. The fact that someone significantly worse than Giannis has to fill in for him, in order to win, lowers the team's probability of winning. In comparison to someone else who had a terrific PS run, it is fair to argue that loss in value lowers him below Wade, even if it isn't the #1 reason. Not everyone cares for the narrative argument that Giannis came back heroically playing through an injury. It is a cool story, but the games missed do matter in some people's evaluations.

You say Wade always had knee issues, and that is true; Giannis too seemingly has had knee issues, which is the majority of the reason he has missed the games he has over the last couple of years.

The hell? It’s not my opinion that it didn’t matter lmao, it literally did not matter, unless I find out the hawks actually won.

You can argue that it matters for someone’s evaluations and that’s fine. But again, I think it’s valid to say that looking at the dude playing historic on one knee that hyperfocusing on him missing two games which didn’t practically matter other than our hypothetical simulations is lame lol.

He played after tearing something fresh in his knee and missed the first half of training camp after resting the next three months and said he was in pain. I’m not trying to hear general knee soreness lol most guys sit out those finals. We give stars passes for bad performance through injuries and I think that’s fine and I do that to, but when someone does something absurd like this should we not give extra props?

Don't take everything so literally; I am saying it matters I'm people's evaluations because people don't believe it is a guarantee that the Bucks are so successful in the time Giannis misses; it could also be used as a sticking point to argue that perhaps Giannis isn't as valuable as we perceived.

You're calling other people's methods lame as if your method of evaluation is automatically superior. Things aren't so black and white. There is nothing wrong for crediting Wade for having better health during a PS run.

And no, Giannis doesn't deserve a boost in how terms of how good he was after he got injured. He played well, but you don't get style points for playing through injury.

And once again, that knee soreness is similar to what Wade had to deal with throughout his career. We don't know the full extent of Giannia' knee issues.

1. Unfortunately it is. We’re talking about after the fact. the bucks beat the hawks, I don’t care about what happens in a hypothetical world where they don’t because that’s not what happened.

I get docking him if he didn’t make up for it but he did.

2. This is stupid lol. I’ve never said to not give credit to players for being healthy. I’m not saying to dock someone for having a healthy playoff run.

I’m saying docking Giannis for missing 2 games on an injury he would have missed 2-3 months for and playing at a historic level when apparently that entire series he was a straightened knee from tearing his acl again is dumb. At some point it’s fair to realize these are human beings and what Giannis did was badass.

You can hyperfocus on those two games he missed. Nothings stopping you. You just seem like an npc if you do so lol. I think that’s valid, I haven’t met a real human being that likes basketball that thinks about those two missed games more than him being historically good on “damn near one leg”

3. What the hell

This is honestly probably the worst take I’ve seen on here, it goes beyond being a dumb basketball one I don’t agree with, and just makes it seem like you don’t know these are human beings lol.

Like man jordan got style points for the flu, and yeah he deserved them. I would rather get the flu than tear something in my knee lol

4. I really don’t want to explain why general knee soreness is different from coming back months early from a fresh tear where you’re at extremely elevated risk to have an ACL tear lmao

The only things we know are:

The way he fell people thought he’d be out for a whole season or two

He was still in pain 3 months later and had to start a ramp up phase midway into training camp. He lied about not being hurt in game 1 and said he shouldn’t have played a year later. The team made a specific brace for him and he just refused to wear it.

He freshly tore something in his knee which was in his words the main thing preventing hyper extension leading to a full acl tear, and played through it before any rest or rehab.

His teammate said he played on damn near one leg


Like damn lol of course you get style points for playing through an injury. You literally have Embiid in ur username bruh the irony is crazy

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

YesEmbiid711 wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
The hell? It’s not my opinion that it didn’t matter lmao, it literally did not matter, unless I find out the hawks actually won.

You can argue that it matters for someone’s evaluations and that’s fine. But again, I think it’s valid to say that looking at the dude playing historic on one knee that hyperfocusing on him missing two games which didn’t practically matter other than our hypothetical simulations is lame lol.

He played after tearing something fresh in his knee and missed the first half of training camp after resting the next three months and said he was in pain. I’m not trying to hear general knee soreness lol most guys sit out those finals. We give stars passes for bad performance through injuries and I think that’s fine and I do that to, but when someone does something absurd like this should we not give extra props?

Don't take everything so literally; I am saying it matters I'm people's evaluations because people don't believe it is a guarantee that the Bucks are so successful in the time Giannis misses; it could also be used as a sticking point to argue that perhaps Giannis isn't as valuable as we perceived.

You're calling other people's methods lame as if your method of evaluation is automatically superior. Things aren't so black and white. There is nothing wrong for crediting Wade for having better health during a PS run.

And no, Giannis doesn't deserve a boost in how terms of how good he was after he got injured. He played well, but you don't get style points for playing through injury.

And once again, that knee soreness is similar to what Wade had to deal with throughout his career. We don't know the full extent of Giannia' knee issues.

1. Unfortunately it is. We’re talking about after the fact. the bucks beat the hawks, I don’t care about what happens in a hypothetical world where they don’t because that’s not what happened.

I get docking him if he didn’t make up for it but he did.

2. This is stupid lol. I’ve never said to not give credit to players for being healthy. I’m not saying to dock someone for having a healthy playoff run.

I’m saying docking Giannis for missing 2 games on an injury he would have missed 2-3 months for and playing at a historic level when apparently that entire series he was a straightened knee from tearing his acl again is dumb. At some point it’s fair to realize these are human beings and what Giannis did was badass.

You can hyperfocus on those two games he missed. Nothings stopping you. You just seem like an npc if you do so lol. I think that’s valid, I haven’t met a real human being that likes basketball that thinks about those two missed games more than him being historically good on “damn near one leg”

3. What the hell

This is honestly probably the worst take I’ve seen on here, it goes beyond being a dumb basketball one I don’t agree with, and just makes it seem like you don’t know these are human beings lol.

Like man jordan got style points for the flu, and yeah he deserved them. I would rather get the flu than tear something in my knee lol

4. I really don’t want to explain why general knee soreness is different from coming back months early from a fresh tear where you’re at extremely elevated risk to have an ACL tear lmao

The only things we know are:

The way he fell people thought he’d be out for a whole season or two

He was still in pain 3 months later and had to start a ramp up phase midway into training camp. He lied about not being hurt in game 1 and said he shouldn’t have played a year later. The team made a specific brace for him and he just refused to wear it.

He freshly tore something in his knee which was in his words the main thing preventing hyper extension leading to a full acl tear, and played through it before any rest or rehab.

His teammate said he played on damn near one leg


Like damn lol of course you get style points for playing through an injury. You literally have Embiid in ur username bruh the irony is crazy

I think you discrediting older generations of players like Jerry West and believing that they would be scrubs today, is NPC behavior. Or thinking that Bronny is better than Bob Cousy when he isn't even the best player on his HS team is borderline delusional. That seems NPC like, and you've been told before how ridiculous this is, yet you continue to spew those trash takes. However, those of on this historical board have to deal with it, so at the same time it would be nice if you could hold a conversation without attacking name-calling people or their arguments.

I can get that people are impressed by how Giannis handled his injuries, but I don't see why we should give him additional points for that when we actually evaluate his in-game impact. Especially since it's literally the best series in Giannis career...

Likewise, having missed games against Giannis is also perfectly fine. Not playing games is worse than playing below expectations, because you don't contribute at all. Imagine Bucks actually playing elite team in ECF, we likely wouldn't have seen Giannis finals performance at all.

YesEmbiid711 wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

YesEmbiid711 wrote:
Don't take everything so literally; I am saying it matters I'm people's evaluations because people don't believe it is a guarantee that the Bucks are so successful in the time Giannis misses; it could also be used as a sticking point to argue that perhaps Giannis isn't as valuable as we perceived.

You're calling other people's methods lame as if your method of evaluation is automatically superior. Things aren't so black and white. There is nothing wrong for crediting Wade for having better health during a PS run.

And no, Giannis doesn't deserve a boost in how terms of how good he was after he got injured. He played well, but you don't get style points for playing through injury.

And once again, that knee soreness is similar to what Wade had to deal with throughout his career. We don't know the full extent of Giannia' knee issues.

1. Unfortunately it is. We’re talking about after the fact. the bucks beat the hawks, I don’t care about what happens in a hypothetical world where they don’t because that’s not what happened.

I get docking him if he didn’t make up for it but he did.

2. This is stupid lol. I’ve never said to not give credit to players for being healthy. I’m not saying to dock someone for having a healthy playoff run.

I’m saying docking Giannis for missing 2 games on an injury he would have missed 2-3 months for and playing at a historic level when apparently that entire series he was a straightened knee from tearing his acl again is dumb. At some point it’s fair to realize these are human beings and what Giannis did was badass.

You can hyperfocus on those two games he missed. Nothings stopping you. You just seem like an npc if you do so lol. I think that’s valid, I haven’t met a real human being that likes basketball that thinks about those two missed games more than him being historically good on “damn near one leg”

3. What the hell

This is honestly probably the worst take I’ve seen on here, it goes beyond being a dumb basketball one I don’t agree with, and just makes it seem like you don’t know these are human beings lol.

Like man jordan got style points for the flu, and yeah he deserved them. I would rather get the flu than tear something in my knee lol

4. I really don’t want to explain why general knee soreness is different from coming back months early from a fresh tear where you’re at extremely elevated risk to have an ACL tear lmao

The only things we know are:

The way he fell people thought he’d be out for a whole season or two

He was still in pain 3 months later and had to start a ramp up phase midway into training camp. He lied about not being hurt in game 1 and said he shouldn’t have played a year later. The team made a specific brace for him and he just refused to wear it.

He freshly tore something in his knee which was in his words the main thing preventing hyper extension leading to a full acl tear, and played through it before any rest or rehab.

His teammate said he played on damn near one leg


Like damn lol of course you get style points for playing through an injury. You literally have Embiid in ur username bruh the irony is crazy

I think you discrediting older generations of players like Jerry West and believing that they would be scrubs today, is NPC behavior. Or thinking that Bronny is better than Bob Cousy when he isn't even the best player on his HS team is borderline delusional. That seems NPC like, and you've been told before how ridiculous this is, yet you continue to spew those trash takes. However, those of on this historical board have to deal with it, so at the same time it would be nice if you could hold a conversation without attacking name-calling people or their arguments.

1. Referencing takes I made a year ago when your account is a like 3 weeks old means you’re either a really creepy stalker or you got banned, so I’m curious what your original account was.

2. I don’t recall getting bagged on in that convo, altho it’s it was just me 70sfan and at this point we agree to disagree on most of that stuff at this point. and yeah I maintain that I don’t think you can compare 60s perimeter players to today’s perimeter players and that 50s guards aren’t D1 level, cry me a goddamn river lol. I’ve never discredited older players, I say they are amazing for their time and they wouldn’t hang today, it’s not really a controversial take outside of here and it’s not exactly something I think I’ve failed to provide a legitimate argument for but it’s completely an opinion because without a time travel disk no one actually knows. I don’t care if you’re so personally offended by my basketball take in a conversation you weren’t involved in that you’ve held a grudge for a year though lmao.

3. You was meant as a placeholder for one, I didn’t mean you literally, but I do see that I wasn’t really clear at all, so that’s on me.

4. At the same time you being this sensitive because you thought you got called an npc is some npc level behavior. Cmon my dude, you just made your alt account a few weeks ago lol.