Would Curry replace Magic as the best PG with one more FMVP?

[dygaction]

If Curry finishes this season similar to last, and wins another ring, would he become the best PG ever? He has peaked higher and catching up really fast with longevity. As the GOAT shooter and best off ball player, he is often selected on the best possible team over Magic as Magic has quite some overlap with LeBron.

[MyUniBroDavis]

If Curry finishes this season similar to last, and wins another ring, would he become the best PG ever? He has peaked higher and catching up really fast with longevity. As the GOAT shooter and best off ball player, he is often selected on the best possible team over Magic as Magic has quite some overlap with LeBron.

So while I think peak Curry over magic is arguable and I might argue for it, I think it has to be said it’s not a given at all lol

I think 2022 was a great year for his career and he finally got that finals mvp but at times I feel we’re starting to treat it as if it’s one of the greatest offensive postseason runs ever or something and like, idk man I feel the main thing was he finally had an iconic winning finals lol

I do think there’s a good shot he passes magic all time but I think if someone thinks Curry has a higher peak they should think currys been better personally

Also especially in the context of in era impact I think it’s pretty easy to argue magic over Curry if you’re high on playoffs and stuff too

[HeartBreakKid]

I think Magic was a decent bit better so I don't think Curry would surpass him.

[Lost92Bricks]

Curry ain't a PG.

[70sFan]

When did Curry become clearly better than Magic peak-wise? Did I miss something?

[picko]

No, because he's an undersized SG not a PG.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I do think it’s probably in the cards if Curry plays as long as he could though for sure.

If Curry has another 4-5 mvp level seasons the longevity is prolly gonna win out at some point if we go career value

I’m not sure where I’d rank Curry right now to be honest all time speaking

[dygaction]

When did Curry become clearly better than Magic peak-wise? Did I miss something?

I would not say "clearly" but Curry's 16 unanimous MVP season his peak performance was better than any season Magic had. Curry had a bad final series and you know I am result oriented, so I am not going to argue if you say Magic had a better season.

[dygaction]

I do think it’s probably in the cards if Curry plays as long as he could though for sure.

If Curry has another 4-5 mvp level seasons the longevity is prolly gonna win out at some point if we go career value

I’m not sure where I’d rank Curry right now to be honest all time speaking

Is he roughly top 10 gate keeper? Across era I have him passing Hakeem and fighting with Kobe for #10 among those players.
Russell/Wilt/KAJ/Bird/Magic/Jordan/Hakeem/Shaq/Kobe/Duncan/LeBron/Curry

[Cavsfansince84]

I do think it’s probably in the cards if Curry plays as long as he could though for sure.

If Curry has another 4-5 mvp level seasons the longevity is prolly gonna win out at some point if we go career value

I’m not sure where I’d rank Curry right now to be honest all time speaking

I agree with the bolded but idk how realistic that is. He'll be 35 in two months. I think one more mvp caliber season might happen and then he'll be more like top 10 for 2 years but idk if his body will hold up either. I will say its somewhat close between them and Steph deserves the discussion but I think Magic's durability is still a major advantage. I'm also not sure the Warriors will be good enough in the coming years for him to move the needle much in terms of team success the next 3-4 years.

[No-more-rings]

For me no. Steph is obviously still playing at a very elite level, especially for someone who's almost 35. But I think it's clear he's past his peak by a decent amount, so one more ring+FMVP isn't going to change the fact that I consider Magic the better peak and prime player. That much won't change. Even if we take a look at longevity below...

Somewhat vague and arbitrary categorizations maybe, but it gives a rough snapshot. For this particular exercise let's just define all time seasons as ones that are top 20 peak level seasons or better.

All time level seasons:

Magic: 1987, 1990
Steph: 2016, 2017

Strong mvp years:

Magic: 1986, 1988, 1990, 1991?
Curry: 2015, 2019, 2021, 2022?, 2023?

Weak mvp years:

Magic: 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985
Steph: 2018?(injuries)

All star caliber/all nba level

Magic: 1980
Curry: 2013, 2014

I mean that's pretty much the relevant years for both guys. By this measure Magic has 11, Curry has 10. If you look at weak mvp years and better, Magic has 10, Curry has 8. That's even assuming that Curry finished this year the way he's going, which isn't' a given. And honestly I'm being generous by not docking Curry for a lot of his playoff injuries, otherwise 2016 and 2018 could take a dip. I also think it's sort of generous to put so many of Curry seasons above 82-85 Magic, but I'm trying to be fair to him.

It's not inconceivable that Curry could not only pass him in prime longevity but also career wise, it depends how he ages the next 3-4 years I think. But as it stands, no I don't think another FMVP would put push him past Magic this year.

[OhayoKD]

When did Curry become clearly better than Magic peak-wise? Did I miss something?

not a hard argument if you break era-relativity which unibro has no problem doing

[70sFan]

When did Curry become clearly better than Magic peak-wise? Did I miss something?

not a hard argument if you break era-relativity which unibro has no problem doing

I don't think it's a given that Magic would be worse now than Curry, or that Curry would be much better than Magic in the 1990s.

[Jaivl]

I do think Curry will end up around Magic level in terms of careers, irrespectively of him getting another FMVP.

[Dutchball97]

Curry will need another 2, maybe 3 seasons to match Magic and Bird in terms of career minutes played. In terms of players with legit top 10 cases, Curry has far and away the worst longevity. That's not even including Curry's relatively slow start to his career either. Now I always say longevity isn't everything so it's not impossible for Curry to surpass some all-time greats that played longer. However, he does need to be better than them in that case and I'm not sure I buy that.

It probably depends on how you define peak. For that I'm mainly looking at one full season and somehow Curry either takes it easy in the regular season or slumps in the play-offs in pretty much every season. Magic's peak isn't particularly special for the top 10 and probably the worst out of all of them in that regard so Curry not being clearly better than him there hurts him as well. Then there still is consistency, which is pretty much Magic's trademark at this point, while Curry is definitely lacking on that front.

I'd be kinda surprised if I did end up having Curry in my top 10 when all is said and done tbh.

[OhayoKD]

When did Curry become clearly better than Magic peak-wise? Did I miss something?

not a hard argument if you break era-relativity which unibro has no problem doing

I don't think it's a given that Magic would be worse now than Curry, or that Curry would be much better than Magic in the 1990s.

Maybe if you apply the "lets have him grow up in a different era and become a different person" approach. But if we just take curry as curry, the shooting and range is league breaking and just scales up in how league breaking it is the less and less the teams and players around him our shooting. It's not like he's far behind in-era(rs is on par, dips in playoffs against defenses dramatically better suited to engage him due to relatively limited passing/helio). Passing windows are much bigger in the 90's and 3>2 and the volume/effeciency he shoots at is going to give you unprecedented impact in earlier eras(well at least post-three point line tho I'm sure uni would argue this doesn't matter for the 60's anyway)

[MyUniBroDavis]

I do think it’s probably in the cards if Curry plays as long as he could though for sure.

If Curry has another 4-5 mvp level seasons the longevity is prolly gonna win out at some point if we go career value

I’m not sure where I’d rank Curry right now to be honest all time speaking

Is he roughly top 10 gate keeper? Across era I have him passing Hakeem and fighting with Kobe for #10 among those players.
Russell/Wilt/KAJ/Bird/Magic/Jordan/Hakeem/Shaq/Kobe/Duncan/LeBron/Curry

That’s weird I didn’t get a notif here

My criteria is a bit different from most guys on here and it makes Curry really weird to rank

I’m very much a absolute ability + playoff performance + rings/achievements type of guy, but currys is a bit odd cuz I feel there way he translates back is more of a cheat code/loophole type of thing and I feel when it comes to that kind of thing it’s a tad unfair, although I’m 50-50 on it. I don’t feel he has that same air of reliability as some of the offensive GOAT peaks in the playoffs overall, so I don’t have him as high as his impact I think on offense.

At the same time being the core engine of a dynasty as dominant as the Warriors… I feel if he gets another ring and has a relatively long career here on out shiv is very possible I could see him climbing quite high

[70sFan]

not a hard argument if you break era-relativity which unibro has no problem doing

I don't think it's a given that Magic would be worse now than Curry, or that Curry would be much better than Magic in the 1990s.

Maybe if you apply the "lets have him grow up in a different era and become a different person" approach. But if we just take curry as curry, the shooting and range is league breaking and just scales up in how league breaking it is the less and less the teams and players around him our shooting. It's not like he's far behind in-era(rs is on par, dips in playoffs against defenses dramatically better suited to engage him due to relatively limited passing/helio). Passing windows are much bigger in the 90's and 3>2 and the volume/effeciency he shoots at is going to give you unprecedented impact in earlier eras(well at least post-three point line tho I'm sure uni would argue this doesn't matter for the 60's anyway)

For some reasons, now I realized that I said 1990s instead of 1980s...

I get that reasoning, but there are a lot of other things to be considered. Remember that although Curry would be a huge outlier in shooting relative to other 1980s players, he wouldn't play in modern systems or with modern players. Once teams start to adjust to his shooting game, his teammates wouldn't be able to exploit advantages he makes in the same way they do now. To put it shortly - Curry attacks wouldn't be nearly as effective with Rick Mahor in place of Draymond Green. There are other things to consider, but I think you get the point.

I also don't agree that passing windows are much bigger in the Magic era - in fact, Magic was such an outlier back then because he could find an opening which basically didn't exist. I think some passing windows are bigger now than in the 1980s, while others used to be more pronounced back then.

[uberhikari]

Right now, I think the main question between Curry vs Magic is whose longevity do you think is worse? Magic's career being cut short by HIV or Curry who was injured multiple times in critical playoff runs or entire years (2012, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2020).

[OhayoKD]

I don't think it's a given that Magic would be worse now than Curry, or that Curry would be much better than Magic in the 1990s.

Maybe if you apply the "lets have him grow up in a different era and become a different person" approach. But if we just take curry as curry, the shooting and range is league breaking and just scales up in how league breaking it is the less and less the teams and players around him our shooting. It's not like he's far behind in-era(rs is on par, dips in playoffs against defenses dramatically better suited to engage him due to relatively limited passing/helio). Passing windows are much bigger in the 90's and 3>2 and the volume/effeciency he shoots at is going to give you unprecedented impact in earlier eras(well at least post-three point line tho I'm sure uni would argue this doesn't matter for the 60's anyway)

For some reasons, now I realized that I said 1990s instead of 1980s...

I get that reasoning, but there are a lot of other things to be considered. Remember that although Curry would be a huge outlier in shooting relative to other 1980s players, he wouldn't play in modern systems or with modern players. Once teams start to adjust to his shooting game, his teammates wouldn't be able to exploit advantages he makes in the same way they do now. To put it shortly - Curry attacks wouldn't be nearly as effective with Rick Mahor in place of Draymond Green. There are other things to consider, but I think you get the point.

I also don't agree that passing windows are much bigger in the Magic era - in fact, Magic was such an outlier back then because he could find an opening which basically didn't exist. I think some passing windows are bigger now than in the 1980s, while others used to be more pronounced back then.

1. That seems fair though I think even if we transpose his volume and effiency(and the distance he can shoot from) from the fairly backwards Mark Jackson offense defenses(especially ones that aren't really hedging) potentially pose an existential threat to defense without some big changes in rosters, defensive schemes, and/or the rules(not being able to hedge is a really big issue when dealing with other-wordly scoring threats who are good but not great at passing). And, I do subscribe to the idea that the league is more talented now and that players should age well backwards if all else is equal(and in this case I think the relative absence of shooting gives curry a very big advantage as a "first-mover" that he didn't even have in the 2016 season.

2. Could you post some examples of what you'd say is an easier read to make now then it is back then? I think Falco did a decent job arguing for the bar for impact as a on-ball creator rising here:
viewtopic.php?p=102962677#p102962677

Curry's main limitations relative to all-time greats as a passer imo is accuracy and anticipation. I think that's less of an issue if you teleport back with wider angles. Don't see him struggling like he did vs the cavs or memphis facing defense like this:
https://youtu.be/5s3IfvOljR8?t=317
https://youtu.be/5s3IfvOljR8?t=344
https://youtu.be/5s3IfvOljR8?t=368
Compare that to
https://youtu.be/ffyDeD-c24s?t=19
https://youtu.be/ffyDeD-c24s?t=29
https://youtu.be/ffyDeD-c24s?t=68
(couldn't find full game but for fairness just took the first 3 plays involving a potential pass)

Now to magic's credit he probably waits a little in the second memphis link and finds that window, but that's a harder read than any of the things in the first 3 clips I think.