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Shawn Marion's prime was while on the Phoenix Suns, from his second season 2001-08.

His numbers:

625gm, 38.9min, 18.9pts, 48.1fg%, 1 3P, 34.3% 3P, 2.7ftm, 82ft%, 10.3reb, 2.1ast, 2stl, 1.4blk, 1.7tos, 21PER, 55ts%, 48.7ows, 41.3dws, 90ws, .178ws/48, 4.2bpm, 38.0vorp\


How good was he? How does he compare to other SFs/PFs of the 00s and alltime? Whereabouts does he rank defensively alltime? Where does he rank among two way players alltime?

He was a very effective and seemingly forgotten player that was huge to his team's successes.

Outside top 30 for defensive list.
Outside top 25 for forwards list.
Overall probably top 120-150 player all-time.

Think he is top 10 in 2000s and likely top 20 two way player alltime. One of the best #3 player on a team. Can't think of many better than him as #3.

migya wrote:Think he is top 10 in 2000s and likely top 20 two way player alltime. One of the best #3 player on a team. Can't think of many better than him as #3.

What do you mean by "two way player"? He's not top 20 defender ever and definitely not top 20 offensive player ever, meaning that it's unlikely to put him inside top 20 for two-way players.

I like Marion, he was very good. You overrate him a lot here and we all know why.

70sFan wrote:

migya wrote:Think he is top 10 in 2000s and likely top 20 two way player alltime. One of the best #3 player on a team. Can't think of many better than him as #3.

What do you mean by "two way player"? He's not top 20 defender ever and definitely not top 20 offensive player ever, meaning that it's unlikely to put him inside top 20 for two-way players.

I like Marion, he was very good. You overrate him a lot here and we all know why.

Yet again you accuse me, an insecure trait you've exhibited often recently.

A one way player doesn't count in two way player discussions, pretty simple.

migya wrote:

70sFan wrote:

migya wrote:Think he is top 10 in 2000s and likely top 20 two way player alltime. One of the best #3 player on a team. Can't think of many better than him as #3.

What do you mean by "two way player"? He's not top 20 defender ever and definitely not top 20 offensive player ever, meaning that it's unlikely to put him inside top 20 for two-way players.

I like Marion, he was very good. You overrate him a lot here and we all know why.

Yet again you accuse me, an insecure trait you've exhibited often recently.

A one way player doesn't count in two way player discussions, pretty simple.

I didn't accuse you of anything here. It's not a mystery that you want to make Nash teammates look very good, you showed it in different threads.

Now back to the topic - when would you stop calling a player "two way" player? I mean, Marion was never a star on offensive end. If you call him two-way player, then I'd gladly call someone like Steph Curry a two-way player as well - because Steph isn't bad on defense and actually can have some value.

70sFan wrote:

migya wrote:Think he is top 10 in 2000s and likely top 20 two way player alltime. One of the best #3 player on a team. Can't think of many better than him as #3.

What do you mean by "two way player"? He's not top 20 defender ever and definitely not top 20 offensive player ever, meaning that it's unlikely to put him inside top 20 for two-way players.

That's kinda unfair... Tim Duncan is probably the purest "two-way player" ever as in being similarly great on both offense and defense, and his case for top 20 offensive player ever is far from airtight. Only Kareem checks both confidently, I'd say.

I mean take a guy like Jason Kidd - far from a top 20 defender, far from a top 20 offensive player, but easily a top 20 two-way player.

If you take two-way player as "player being positive on both offense and defense" then yeah, he's not close to top 20, as then the majority of all-timers are two-way players (LeBron, Jordan, Malone, Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Garnett, Wade, KD, Pippen, Hondo, Erving, and that's only the total and absolute locks...).

Marion was a 20 ppg scorer before Nash, though Nash made a big boost in his efficiency from not great to very good. He was also a terrific rebounder for a 3 (his natural position), a legit 1-4 defensive threat with excellent off ball utility on both ends. You don't want him as your shot creator or playmaker, he didn't look to pass and his handles weren't good. But if you have others to create, he's one of the great finishers and cutters and he can even shoot the 3 solidly for his era, despite having one of the uglier shots I've seen at the NBA level.

Very good player, All-Star/lower level All-NBA for a decent length of time, one of the best defenders to never get an All-Defense award (though he did finish top 3 in DPOY one year while not making 1st or 2nd team All-Defense, fwiw).

Jaivl wrote:

70sFan wrote:

migya wrote:Think he is top 10 in 2000s and likely top 20 two way player alltime. One of the best #3 player on a team. Can't think of many better than him as #3.

What do you mean by "two way player"? He's not top 20 defender ever and definitely not top 20 offensive player ever, meaning that it's unlikely to put him inside top 20 for two-way players.

That's kinda unfair... Tim Duncan is probably the purest "two-way player" ever as in being similarly great on both offense and defense, and his case for top 20 offensive player ever is far from airtight. Only Kareem checks both confidently, I'd say.

I mean take a guy like Jason Kidd - far from a top 20 defender, far from a top 20 offensive player, but easily a top 20 two-way player.

If you take two-way player as "player being positive on both offense and defense" then yeah, he's not close to top 20, as then the majority of all-timers are two-way players (LeBron, Jordan, Malone, Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Garnett, Wade, KD, Pippen, Hondo, Erving, and that's only the total and absolute locks...).

Tim Duncan is top 20 defender easily though, which is my point. I don't ask Marion to be both top 20 offensively and defensively - that's basically a GOAT level player, but if you want to put him inside top 20 two-way players ever then he has to be at least reasonably close to either top 20 and that's not the case here.

About Kidd - well, Kidd is much better offensively than Marion while being comparable on defensive end (though probably worse). Is he top 20 two-way player ever? I don't know, based on peak probably not in my opinion.

penbeast0 wrote:Marion was a 20 ppg scorer before Nash, though Nash made a big boost in his efficiency from not great to very good. He was also a terrific rebounder for a 3 (his natural position), a legit 1-4 defensive threat with excellent off ball utility on both ends. You don't want him as your shot creator or playmaker, he didn't look to pass and his handles weren't good. But if you have others to create, he's one of the great finishers and cutters and he can even shoot the 3 solidly for his era, despite having one of the uglier shots I've seen at the NBA level.

Very good player, All-Star/lower level All-NBA for a decent length of time, one of the best defenders to never get an All-Defense award (though he did finish top 3 in DPOY one year while not making 1st or 2nd team All-Defense, fwiw).

I think Marion peaked as an low all-nba level player (like third team level), so it's not like I'm low on him. It's just not material for one of the greatest two-way players ever.

To explain the simple - The likes of Magic, Nash, Nowitzki, Barkley, Oscar and Shaq are not considerations for great two way players.

migya wrote:To explain the simple - The likes of Magic, Nash, Nowitzki, Barkley, Oscar and Shaq are not considerations for great two way players.

Is Shaq's defense worse than Marion's offense?

Jaivl wrote:

70sFan wrote:

migya wrote:Think he is top 10 in 2000s and likely top 20 two way player alltime. One of the best #3 player on a team. Can't think of many better than him as #3.

What do you mean by "two way player"? He's not top 20 defender ever and definitely not top 20 offensive player ever, meaning that it's unlikely to put him inside top 20 for two-way players.

That's kinda unfair... Tim Duncan is probably the purest "two-way player" ever as in being similarly great on both offense and defense, and his case for top 20 offensive player ever is far from airtight. Only Kareem checks both confidently, I'd say.

I mean take a guy like Jason Kidd - far from a top 20 defender, far from a top 20 offensive player, but easily a top 20 two-way player.

If you take two-way player as "player being positive on both offense and defense" then yeah, he's not close to top 20, as then the majority of all-timers are two-way players (LeBron, Jordan, Malone, Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Garnett, Wade, KD, Pippen, Hondo, Erving, and that's only the total and absolute locks...).

For prime I'm not confident in Kareem as a top 20 defender. The 15 below I'd take over him pretty easily and there are other contenders - Gilmore, Mourning, Gasol, etc.

Mikan, Russell, Wilt, Thurmond, Walton, Eaton, Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Mutumbo, KG, Duncan, Howard, Dray, Gobert

eminence wrote:

Jaivl wrote:

70sFan wrote:What do you mean by "two way player"? He's not top 20 defender ever and definitely not top 20 offensive player ever, meaning that it's unlikely to put him inside top 20 for two-way players.

That's kinda unfair... Tim Duncan is probably the purest "two-way player" ever as in being similarly great on both offense and defense, and his case for top 20 offensive player ever is far from airtight. Only Kareem checks both confidently, I'd say.

I mean take a guy like Jason Kidd - far from a top 20 defender, far from a top 20 offensive player, but easily a top 20 two-way player.

If you take two-way player as "player being positive on both offense and defense" then yeah, he's not close to top 20, as then the majority of all-timers are two-way players (LeBron, Jordan, Malone, Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Garnett, Wade, KD, Pippen, Hondo, Erving, and that's only the total and absolute locks...).

For prime I'm not confident in Kareem as a top 20 defender. The 15 below I'd take over him pretty easily and there are other contenders - Gilmore, Mourning, Gasol, etc.

Mikan, Russell, Wilt, Thurmond, Walton, Eaton, Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Mutumbo, KG, Duncan, Howard, Dray, Gobert

I think you mean "peaks", because for primes Walton has no case.

Won't comment about Mikan, way too many uncertainties for me. The rest of the list is fine, although I think Bucks Kareem could compete with Eaton, Ewing, Howard and Gobert.

Good.

Almost 0 self creation abilities off the dribble. Good cutter. Good finisher in the paint. Shot decently , though streaky from 3. Offensive glass was a healthy portion of his offense too.

Good defender but maybe sometimes overrated as a "lock down" defender when his value was more in his 1-4 versatility.

Good player for sure.

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