More Athletic: Prime John Wall or Current Ja Morant

[mdonnelly1989]

More Athletic: Prime John Wall or Current Ja Morant

[penbeast0]

What are you defining as athletic? I would say Wall was both stronger and faster, Ja seems quicker and more explosive getting into the air. It's been a few years so I may be remembering Wall through red-white-and-blue colored glasses.

[O_6]

Out of all the players that have been in the mix for "fastest in the open court" over the past 20 years, young John Wall was the most effortless and smooth imo. With his change of direction and ball-handling, it was almost like he was slithering down the court at full speed. I'm not a big car guy so can't give you specific examples, but young Wall moved like one those supercars that also don't make a lot of noise. Just an extremely smooth type of athlete for someone with explosive speed.

Ja isn't as fast. Ja isn't as big. Ja isn't as strong.

But Ja is more explosive from a standstill and his vert is on another level. Every now and then you get guys like Sharpe in Portland, Damian James in Miami a few years back, etc. who have a special vert/hang-time combo that makes them look like they float in the air. Ja is one of those guys and the first PG I've truly seen on that level. Francis might've been that, would have to rewatch some highlights. Westbrook was insanely explosive but not quite the same type of leaper. Wall wasn't close despite the above-the-rim ability he also had.

I think Wall is pretty clearly the more well-rounded athlete due to the size edge. He checks off almost every possible box when it comes to "PG athletic traits". But Ja's A++ explosion in terms of both first step and vert/hang-time is an extremely rare combo. Even with Wall being more well-rounded, Ja might have the edge just on that alone. Tough call, depends on your preference.

[mdonnelly1989]

Out of all the players that have been in the mix for "fastest in the open court" over the past 20 years, young John Wall was the most effortless and smooth imo. With his change of direction and ball-handling, it was almost like he was slithering down the court at full speed. I'm not a big car guy so can't give you specific examples, but young Wall moved like one those supercars that also don't make a lot of noise. Just an extremely smooth type of athlete for someone with explosive speed.

Ja isn't as fast. Ja isn't as big. Ja isn't as strong.

But Ja is more explosive from a standstill and his vert is on another level. Every now and then you get guys like Sharpe in Portland, Damian James in Miami a few years back, etc. who have a special vert/hang-time combo that makes them look like they float in the air. Ja is one of those guys and the first PG I've truly seen on that level. Francis might've been that, would have to rewatch some highlights. Westbrook was insanely explosive but not quite the same type of leaper. Wall wasn't close despite the above-the-rim ability he also had.

I think Wall is pretty clearly the more well-rounded athlete due to the size edge. He checks off almost every possible box when it comes to "PG athletic traits". But Ja's A++ explosion in terms of both first step and vert/hang-time is an extremely rare combo. Even with Wall being more well-rounded, Ja might have the edge just on that alone. Tough call, depends on your preference.

What about 2011 Derrick Rose? I don't think there was anyone more explosive than peak Westbrook.

Derrick Rose, Westbrook and Wall for straight line speed is an absolute wash IMO with Ty Lawson being a very close #4.

I still feel very confident in saying Westbrook and Rose are comfortably in a tier of their own for the most athletic PGs of all time.

1A and 1B.


Then the next tier is John Wall, Ja, Francis, Baron Davis probably

[O_6]

Out of all the players that have been in the mix for "fastest in the open court" over the past 20 years, young John Wall was the most effortless and smooth imo. With his change of direction and ball-handling, it was almost like he was slithering down the court at full speed. I'm not a big car guy so can't give you specific examples, but young Wall moved like one those supercars that also don't make a lot of noise. Just an extremely smooth type of athlete for someone with explosive speed.

Ja isn't as fast. Ja isn't as big. Ja isn't as strong.

But Ja is more explosive from a standstill and his vert is on another level. Every now and then you get guys like Sharpe in Portland, Damian James in Miami a few years back, etc. who have a special vert/hang-time combo that makes them look like they float in the air. Ja is one of those guys and the first PG I've truly seen on that level. Francis might've been that, would have to rewatch some highlights. Westbrook was insanely explosive but not quite the same type of leaper. Wall wasn't close despite the above-the-rim ability he also had.

I think Wall is pretty clearly the more well-rounded athlete due to the size edge. He checks off almost every possible box when it comes to "PG athletic traits". But Ja's A++ explosion in terms of both first step and vert/hang-time is an extremely rare combo. Even with Wall being more well-rounded, Ja might have the edge just on that alone. Tough call, depends on your preference.

What about 2011 Derrick Rose? I don't think there was anyone more explosive than peak Westbrook.

Derrick Rose, Westbrook and Wall for straight line speed is an absolute wash IMO with Ty Lawson being a very close #4.

I still feel very confident in saying Westbrook and Rose are comfortably in a tier of their own for the most athletic PGs of all time.

1A and 1B.


Then the next tier is John Wall, Ja, Francis, Baron Davis probably

In terms of a straight up race, I don't know who'd win between Rose/Wall/Westbrook. It would be extremely close. I was more focusing on how "smooth" Wall ran for a guy of his speed. Rose and Westbrook were more explosive, but even Rose was more "herky-jerky / start-stop" in his movements than Wall. Rose, Westbrook, Morant, LeBron... you can just clearly see the power and explosion they have running through their veins within every single movement in their running motion. Wall didn't really have that. That's where my "quiet supercar" comparison really stems from. Dude looked like he was jogging past everyone.

Scoot Henderson looks like he's going to be joining this discussion too. Very impressive athlete. Would love to see Ja vs. Scoot become a rivalry, it would the dumbest name rivalry of all-time but also the most athletic PG "rivalry" since Rose-Westbrook.

Edit: My bad, read that wrong. You were asking about Ja's explosiveness.

Sometimes I don't know what the right word to use is. You could say that Westbrook is clearly a more "explosive" jumper than Ja because of how insanely hard and fast he got up, but then you could say Morant clearly has more "explosion" in his jump as he gets higher and stays there longer.

Comparisons like these are really about your personal preference and the way you define terms such as "explosive". I think Rose/Westbrook had a combination of strength/speed along with close-but-not-quite leaping to Morant that you can probably say they're better all-around athletes. But Ja can basically fly and he's pretty fast himself, so you could easily put him ahead of the others if that's what you value more.

[BIGJ1ER]

I'd actually argue Ja has more functional athleticism, or is atleast able to leverage it better.

Ja seems harder to stay infront of, and this is somewhat born out in his drive per game/rim point numbers (although tbf spacing now and offensive meta has changed alot since even Wall's peak in 2017).

He's also got incredible body contortion and flexibility, allowing him to sneak through gaps and be able to finish impossible looking drives.

That said, Ja just may have better touch which lets him finish more layups which would be warping my perception, as I don't really remember Wall having elite touch as a finisher, and this is again somewhat displayed in their ability to hit floaters.

I think I'd actually back Ja here tbh, but I'm not entirely convinced and could be swayed by stronger arguments

[mdonnelly1989]

Out of all the players that have been in the mix for "fastest in the open court" over the past 20 years, young John Wall was the most effortless and smooth imo. With his change of direction and ball-handling, it was almost like he was slithering down the court at full speed. I'm not a big car guy so can't give you specific examples, but young Wall moved like one those supercars that also don't make a lot of noise. Just an extremely smooth type of athlete for someone with explosive speed.

Ja isn't as fast. Ja isn't as big. Ja isn't as strong.

But Ja is more explosive from a standstill and his vert is on another level. Every now and then you get guys like Sharpe in Portland, Damian James in Miami a few years back, etc. who have a special vert/hang-time combo that makes them look like they float in the air. Ja is one of those guys and the first PG I've truly seen on that level. Francis might've been that, would have to rewatch some highlights. Westbrook was insanely explosive but not quite the same type of leaper. Wall wasn't close despite the above-the-rim ability he also had.

I think Wall is pretty clearly the more well-rounded athlete due to the size edge. He checks off almost every possible box when it comes to "PG athletic traits". But Ja's A++ explosion in terms of both first step and vert/hang-time is an extremely rare combo. Even with Wall being more well-rounded, Ja might have the edge just on that alone. Tough call, depends on your preference.

What about 2011 Derrick Rose? I don't think there was anyone more explosive than peak Westbrook.

Derrick Rose, Westbrook and Wall for straight line speed is an absolute wash IMO with Ty Lawson being a very close #4.

I still feel very confident in saying Westbrook and Rose are comfortably in a tier of their own for the most athletic PGs of all time.

1A and 1B.


Then the next tier is John Wall, Ja, Francis, Baron Davis probably

In terms of a straight up race, I don't know who'd win between Rose/Wall/Westbrook. It would be extremely close. I was more focusing on how "smooth" Wall ran for a guy of his speed. Rose and Westbrook were more explosive, but even Rose was more "herky-jerky / start-stop" in his movements than Wall. Rose, Westbrook, Morant, LeBron... you can just clearly see the power and explosion they have running through their veins within every single movement in their running motion. Wall didn't really have that. That's where my "quiet supercar" comparison really stems from. Dude looked like he was jogging past everyone.

Scoot Henderson looks like he's going to be joining this discussion too. Very impressive athlete. Would love to see Ja vs. Scoot become a rivalry, it would the dumbest name rivalry of all-time but also the most athletic PG "rivalry" since Rose-Westbrook.

Edit: My bad, read that wrong. You were asking about Ja's explosiveness.

Sometimes I don't know what the right word to use is. You could say that Westbrook is clearly a more "explosive" jumper than Ja because of how insanely hard and fast he got up, but then you could say Morant clearly has more "explosion" in his jump as he gets higher and stays there longer.

Comparisons like these are really about your personal preference and the way you define terms such as "explosive". I think Rose/Westbrook had a combination of strength/speed along with close-but-not-quite leaping to Morant that you can probably say they're better all-around athletes. But Ja can basically fly and he's pretty fast himself, so you could easily put him ahead of the others if that's what you value more.

That is absolutely true. And great analogy. Derrick Rose and Westbrook were like the old clunk cars but still got to super speed.

Wall reminded you of a super car from the future that glides or hovers over thin air rather than drove. Like a noiseless fan but gets the job done nicely.

Morant is right there in terms of explosion. I supposed in my mind Rose and Westbrook are untouchable in my life time in terms of their athletic ability from everyone else. I always thought Westbrook/Rose were a PG version of Lebron in terms of athleticism. Westbrook more than Rose.

Wall was usually considered a distant 3rd to those too. So it got me wondering about Ja and Wall.

I also think an interesting discussion here is if you throw D-Wade in just in terms of "Guard" position.