Offense only: How many seasons was John Stockton better than peak Deron Williams?

[LA Bird]

The two best point guards in Jazz history. Stockton was obviously a better defender but on offense only, in which seasons was he better than 08/10 Deron Williams?

Edit: I originally added the "offense only" restriction to make it a closer comparison but it seems like it's too easy of a win for Deron Williams. Oops.

[Colbinii]

Offense Only?

Probably None.

[AEnigma]

I have peak Deron pretty securely ahead of peak Stockton as is, so not much of a question for me on offence specifically.

Deron was a notably better scorer, and I think he was a more dynamic passer (which in conjunction with the scoring made him a more dynamic playmaker). He lost to the conference champions four years in a row; definitely a guy you could build a contender around as your best piece, if you had the right set-up. The three lead point guards of that period all had decently structured starting lineups, so fun to consider how the teams might look with some swaps. I think the Jazz with David West and Tyson Chandler would have been even more dangerous, but there too probably still not enough to overcome the gap with those conference champions.

[Dr Positivity]

Well Deron got to around the same overall rank in NBA as Stockton playing only offense, so you'd think that'd make his offense better than Stockton's. But I do think he played in better era for their games, Stockton probably kills in the post handcheck era. Deron's situation was simply superb for his production playing with Boozer and Okur frontcourt and Sloan rigid PNR system. Surprisingly his peak WS/48 is in 2013 but he didn't feel like as good a player to me as his Utah years.

[Owly]

Reference box composites suggest a bunch. As in most of Stockton's career by OBPM (indeed career average is Williams' peak - and Stockton dragged down in this by his first 3 years). OWS/48 isn't as bad if you're happy using '13 Deron as his peak. At first glance top Utah years are lower OWS/48 than career Stockton. PER has some defense stuff but matches the trend of Stockton average being above peak Deron.


Impact ... Stockton has a lot of data missing. I general I think what we have tends to make me bullish on him, but I'd say that's more driven by elite D numbers for the position more than O. Deron side it would depend how much you believe in 2010 Deron, I think.

I will say Williams was neither a usage monster (most often and most effective in prime around 23-25%, I would suggest at first glance) nor hugely efficient so TS add goes heavily in Stockton's favor.

This is all RS tilted, first glance stuff.

[Colbinii]

Well Deron got to around the same overall rank in NBA as Stockton playing only offense, so you'd think that'd make his offense better than Stockton's. But I do think he played in better era for their games, Stockton probably kills in the post handcheck era. Deron's situation was simply superb for his production playing with Boozer and Okur frontcourt and Sloan rigid PNR system. Surprisingly his peak WS/48 is in 2013 but he didn't feel like as good a player to me as his Utah years.

Stockton ran a Pick and Roll with Karl Malone in an era where there couldn't be help or zone defense.

[Jaivl]

Zero IMO.

[OhayoKD]

Deron is probably a better peak despite weaker defense so...none

[Bwelc679]

Stockton was better than Peak Deron probably a whole decade. I don't understand why people think Stockton wasn't great and are judging Deron is better based on the fact that Deron was a better athlete. Stockton had some incredible seasons as an adjusted plus minus player or using BPM and historical raptor. His True shooting relative to league averages destroys Deron and defensively he was much smarter, didn't make stupid gambles nearly as much as Deron, was incredibly pesky and constantly putting pressure on guards and getting steals while Deron would over play passing lanes and would often get beat by being upright and way to close to his opponent. Deron has a way better handle package and his crossover is deadly (so was peak Stockton's) but John moved the ball much faster and didn't waste as much time dribbling nowhere. People just look at John and see a white dude who isn't big or super athletic and think he was overrated and could only play because of the era when in truth John was playing competitively against Jordan, Glove, Jason Kidd, Hardaway etc. Deron Williams is an underrated player historically but he is not even close to peak Stockton.

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[Bwelc679]

You focus too much on the rule book and not enough on the reality of the situation. Help defense was everywhere and the entire area within the 3 point line (where they ran PnR) was completely crowded with help defenders at all times because nobody was spacing the floor at the time. Don't make judgements based on reading the rulebook without watching the games.

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[Bwelc679]

Well Deron got to around the same overall rank in NBA as Stockton playing only offense, so you'd think that'd make his offense better than Stockton's. But I do think he played in better era for their games, Stockton probably kills in the post handcheck era. Deron's situation was simply superb for his production playing with Boozer and Okur frontcourt and Sloan rigid PNR system. Surprisingly his peak WS/48 is in 2013 but he didn't feel like as good a player to me as his Utah years.

Stockton ran a Pick and Roll with Karl Malone in an era where there couldn't be help or zone defense.

You focus too much on the rule book and not enough on the reality of the situation. Help defense was everywhere and the entire area within the 3 point line (where they ran PnR) was completely crowded with help defenders at all times because nobody was spacing the floor at the time. Don't make judgements based on reading the rulebook without watching the games.

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[Colbinii]

Well Deron got to around the same overall rank in NBA as Stockton playing only offense, so you'd think that'd make his offense better than Stockton's. But I do think he played in better era for their games, Stockton probably kills in the post handcheck era. Deron's situation was simply superb for his production playing with Boozer and Okur frontcourt and Sloan rigid PNR system. Surprisingly his peak WS/48 is in 2013 but he didn't feel like as good a player to me as his Utah years.

Stockton ran a Pick and Roll with Karl Malone in an era where there couldn't be help or zone defense.

You focus too much on the rule book and not enough on the reality of the situation. Help defense was everywhere and the entire area within the 3 point line (where they ran PnR) was completely crowded with help defenders at all times because nobody was spacing the floor at the time. Don't make judgements based on reading the rulebook without watching the games.

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This isn't at all what happened.

[tsherkin]

You focus too much on the rule book and not enough on the reality of the situation. Help defense was everywhere and the entire area within the 3 point line (where they ran PnR) was completely crowded with help defenders at all times because nobody was spacing the floor at the time. Don't make judgements based on reading the rulebook without watching the games.

That isn't how that played out at all.

Especially in the late 80s and early/mid 90s. They had tons and tons of space for Malone to work, and Stockton often broke off left to right and ended up throwing a pocket pass from the FT line. Or hitting Malone in transition, or when he popped wide for a jumper (especially that, later on in their careers).

[One_and_Done]

None. Stockton was't better than peak Deron aa a player, never mind just O.

[Bwelc679]

None. Stockton was't better than peak Deron aa a player, never mind just O.

You are showing your age and lack of basketball knowledge to say that a legend like John Stockton who has incredible records and did amazing things against other legends including two 20 point and 20 assists games IN THE PLAYOFFS against Magic Johnson and even at the ripe age of 40. Yes 40 years old. He drops 25 against peak Jason Kidd who happens to be known as arguably the greatest defensive guard of all time. John was showing him what a legend he was and Kidd has gone and said John is the greatest point guard he ever played against. You really are going to say Deron Williams was better? Deron Williams would be locked down by Kidd with ease at his peak but Stockton at 40 gives him this:

https://youtu.be/pkooT86CQu8?si=fWGr35QVsWhORhYS

You nephews just don't respect Stockton because he doesn't look like a baller. What he has accomplished in the Association compared to Deron is hilarious. I also love Deron Williams and he's one of my favorite players to go back and watch because that crossover is nasty but even I know better than to put him even close to Stockton level lol.

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[Bwelc679]

You focus too much on the rule book and not enough on the reality of the situation. Help defense was everywhere and the entire area within the 3 point line (where they ran PnR) was completely crowded with help defenders at all times because nobody was spacing the floor at the time. Don't make judgements based on reading the rulebook without watching the games.

That isn't how that played out at all.

Especially in the late 80s and early/mid 90s. They had tons and tons of space for Malone to work, and Stockton often broke off left to right and ended up throwing a pocket pass from the FT line. Or hitting Malone in transition, or when he popped wide for a jumper (especially that, later on in their careers).

I am sure they created decent space for the time I am just comparing it to the space of the current NBA.

I am not sure what your take is here? Are you trying to make the case that John had it way easier than Deron or something? I won't get into which era is easier I don't really care to argue about that. I think Stockton has earned himself a higher peak ranking that Deron Williams regardless of all of that.

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[tsherkin]

I am sure they created decent space for the time I am just comparing it to the space of the current NBA.

I am not sure what your take is here? Are you trying to make the case that John had it way easier than Deron or something? I won't get into which era is easier I don't really care to argue about that. I think Stockton has earned himself a higher peak ranking that Deron Williams regardless of all of that.

I don't think Stockton has earned that at all. He was never the primary player on his own team, while Deron was. Carlos Boozer was never anything like Karl Malone, and Deron stepped up his scoring ability when it mattered in the playoffs.

I think there's something to be said for remembering that volume output and longevity mean only so much. Stockton was very good, and particularly good inside the role Sloan crafted for him as long as he wasn't facing larger defenders, or getting eaten alive by larger, more athletic guards at his position. And if they didn't need him to escalate his scoring impact. I think people are entranced by his raw assist output and then also by his late-career, constrained-minute RAPM numbers, and not paying so much attention to the inverse relationship between shooting volume and assist output for most players.

Peak Deron Williams didn't enjoy the kind of team context Stockton did, but managed to have his Utah teams averaging over 50 wins and competing in the playoffs with high-end offenses driving them.

I can see how some would choose Stockton here, but dismissing the idea that peak-to-peak this could be Deron is also a little bit ridiculous. Again, choosing one or choosing the other, meh, whatever. But Deron was extremely good and there are discussion points for Stockton which go beyond the things most people point to when trying to elevate him over others.

[iggymcfrack]

I would say 10 seasons. 88-97. OBPM would suggest all those years plus 98 and 01. Stockton had tremendous impact signals even in his decline years from age 34-40. He was a much more efficient scorer than Williams and a much better passer too.

[One_and_Done]

None. Stockton was't better than peak Deron aa a player, never mind just O.

You are showing your age and lack of basketball knowledge to say that a legend like John Stockton who has incredible records and did amazing things against other legends including two 20 point and 20 assists games IN THE PLAYOFFS against Magic Johnson and even at the ripe age of 40. Yes 40 years old. He drops 25 against peak Jason Kidd who happens to be known as arguably the greatest defensive guard of all time. John was showing him what a legend he was and Kidd has gone and said John is the greatest point guard he ever played against. You really are going to say Deron Williams was better? Deron Williams would be locked down by Kidd with ease at his peak but Stockton at 40 gives him this:

https://youtu.be/pkooT86CQu8?si=fWGr35QVsWhORhYS

You nephews just don't respect Stockton because he doesn't look like a baller. What he has accomplished in the Association compared to Deron is hilarious. I also love Deron Williams and he's one of my favorite players to go back and watch because that crossover is nasty but even I know better than to put him even close to Stockton level lol.

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No i just understand what the quality of basketball was in Stockton's era, and his place in that era as a fringw all-nba player. Today he'd be a fringe all-star.

[Bwelc679]

I am sure they created decent space for the time I am just comparing it to the space of the current NBA.

I am not sure what your take is here? Are you trying to make the case that John had it way easier than Deron or something? I won't get into which era is easier I don't really care to argue about that. I think Stockton has earned himself a higher peak ranking that Deron Williams regardless of all of that.

I don't think Stockton has earned that at all. He was never the primary player on his own team, while Deron was. Carlos Boozer was never anything like Karl Malone, and Deron stepped up his scoring ability when it mattered in the playoffs.

I think there's something to be said for remembering that volume output and longevity mean only so much. Stockton was very good, and particularly good inside the role Sloan crafted for him as long as he wasn't facing larger defenders, or getting eaten alive by larger, more athletic guards at his position. And if they didn't need him to escalate his scoring impact. I think people are entranced by his raw assist output and then also by his late-career, constrained-minute RAPM numbers, and not paying so much attention to the inverse relationship between shooting volume and assist output for most players.

Peak Deron Williams didn't enjoy the kind of team context Stockton did, but managed to have his Utah teams averaging over 50 wins and competing in the playoffs with high-end offenses driving them.

I can see how some would choose Stockton here, but dismissing the idea that peak-to-peak this could be Deron is also a little bit ridiculous. Again, choosing one or choosing the other, meh, whatever. But Deron was extremely good and there are discussion points for Stockton which go beyond the things most people point to when trying to elevate him over others.

I can use pretty much of of these **Box score stats. Advanced stats. True shooting relative to era. APM.** To make a point as to why Stockton was better but you then try to say that it was Stockton fitting into the roal Sloane crafted while forgetting that the same thing could be said for Deron. Saying he was the primary player or not is just anecdotal and opinionated but ok I wont argue that Malone was a better player than Boozer. That is a fact. John did get beat by more athletic players but Deron pretty much got beat by everyone on defense because he was a negative defender. Then you said that Deron didn't have as much success as John teamwise. So your one argument is to pay more attention to the inverse relationship between shooting output volume and assor output for most players. Ok.

Rather than say

"there are discussion points for Stockton which go beyond the things most people point to when trying to elevate him over others"

Why not enlighten us with your knowledge instead of speaking of it's existence?

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