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Does LeBron becoming the all time leading scorer change his all time ranking in your mind?

His legacy/greatness?

Discuss!!

I already had him as number 1 all time.
So no it doesn't but it's certainly a reflection of why he's the best ever.

If your ranking is different today than it was a few days ago then your ranking system is incredibly weird.

picko wrote:If your ranking is different today than it was a few days ago then your ranking system is incredibly weird.

Tell that to 70'sFan, who knows more about basketball than anyone on this forum. He said he would be moving LeBron ahead of his Hero, Kareem Abdul-Jabaar, once LeBron passed Kareem in career points.

I don't think it changes my perspective of LeBron or general assessment of his career from purely analytical perspective, in this sense it's irrelevant for his all-time ranking, and I think most will agree.

I think it helps him from some symbolic/cognitive perspective over Kareem, after all he took one of the other GOAT-candidate's most known records, and it's very rare in such discussions.

But for me there are four GOATs in whatever order, and I don't think LeBron will do anything to go a tier ahead over the other three at this point of his career.

ty 4191 wrote:

picko wrote:If your ranking is different today than it was a few days ago then your ranking system is incredibly weird.

Tell that to 70'sFan, who knows more about basketball than anyone on this forum. He said he would be moving LeBron ahead of his Hero, Kareem Abdul-Jabaar, once LeBron passed Kareem in career points.

I think 70's has said in the past, that depending on Lebron's season this year, he could move ahead of Kareem. Or that's what I believe I have seen him write.

I think people have actually placed too much emphasis lately on the idea of LeBron's rep now being based on amazing longevity and accumulated stats, when regardless of longevity his peak years (pick any of them) was one of the best peaks in NBA history.

So that combined along with the longevity definitely gives LeBron an argument few others have. Kareem arguably was the guy who had the best combination of peak to longevity prior to LeBron.

There are four serious goat candidates

Wilt

LeBron

Kareem

Jordan

And you can rank them in any order it just depends on your way of thinking.

I think Russell's case is weak because its based on his team and teammates rather than his individual greatness.

As it is Questionable whether he was actually the best player on all 11 champs.



Heinsohn as good in 1957 & 59 POs. Sharman, Ramsey, Cousy also key. Sam Jones (10 champs) key, too, esp. 1963-67. Howell in 68-69.

Havlicek > Russ in 68 & 69.

coastalmarker99 wrote:There are four serious goat candidates

Wilt

LeBron

Kareem

Jordan

And you can rank them in any order it just depends on your way of thinking.

I agree with that list but Bill Russell has to be there among them. Regardless of the debate about his scoring he essentially anchored 11 championships and was literally player-coach for one of them I believe.

They named the FMVP award after him now, as he'd likely be the all time leader in that award category had it existed in his days, not saying he'd have 11 of them but 7 or 8 at least?

D.Brasco wrote:

coastalmarker99 wrote:There are four serious goat candidates

Wilt

LeBron

Kareem

Jordan

And you can rank them in any order it just depends on your way of thinking.

I agree with that list but Bill Russell has to be there among them.

Russell is a hard one for me.

As he never had to carry a bad team on Both ends like those four guys did.

He deserves credit for his winning but there”s no way that he was a better basketball player then those 4 guys.

ty 4191 wrote:Does LeBron becoming the all time leading scorer change his all time ranking in your mind?

His legacy/greatness?

Discuss!!

I personally don't think it should, and it seems (generally speaking) those who have him as the greatest player of all time and those who don't will not ever change their opinions at this point without a significant perspective shift.

I don't quite like the term "GOAT", as basketball is very nuanced and careers for all-time great players are all different stories. For what it's worth, my view / analytical lens leads me to the opinion that James has the most valuable career of all time - a feat established before the scoring record.

More on the nuance, I think a rational approach depending on what one values should yield four GOAT candidates in Russell, Abdul-Jabbar, Jordan, and James (chronological, for simplicity)

Stats and individual dominance =Wilt

Winning= Russell

Longevity =Kareem and LeBron

Peak play=Jordan.

Jordan basically combined Wilt”s stats with Russell”s winning which is why he is viewed as the goat by most.

coastalmarker99 wrote:There are four serious goat candidates

Wilt

LeBron

Kareem

Jordan

And you can rank them in any order it just depends on your way of thinking.

I think Russell's case is weak because its based on his team and teammates rather than his individual greatness.

As it is Questionable whether he was actually the best player on all 11 champs.



Heinsohn as good in 1957 & 59 POs. Sharman, Ramsey, Cousy also key. Sam Jones (10 champs) key, too, esp. 1963-67. Howell in 68-69.

Havlicek > Russ in 68 & 69.

Those teammates that won 35 games in 1970? Funny how Hondo was better than "Russ" in 1969, then got better in 1970, yet the Celtics went from an especially impressive championship run(knocked two of the best teams of the era) to missing the playoffs.

I don't think there's a real consensus now(though there sort of was before 2016) and there won't be 5 years from now but I think its going to shift from MJ being the most popular answer to more of 45/45/10 split in coming years between him and LeBron with Kareem/Russell/Wilt getting the other 10% among fans/media. More so if LeBron gets another title.

rk2023 wrote:

ty 4191 wrote:Does LeBron becoming the all time leading scorer change his all time ranking in your mind?

His legacy/greatness?

Discuss!!

I personally don't think it should, and it seems (generally speaking) those who have him as the greatest player of all time and those who don't will not ever change their opinions at this point without a significant perspective shift.

I don't quite like the term "GOAT", as basketball is very nuanced and careers for all-time great players are all different stories. For what it's worth, my view / analytical lens leads me to the opinion that James has the most valuable career of all time - a feat established before the scoring record.

More on the nuance, I think a rational approach depending on what one values should yield four GOAT candidates in Russell, Abdul-Jabbar, Jordan, and James (chronological, for simplicity)

Raising or lowering Lebron's peak would do the trick for many

OhayoKD wrote:

coastalmarker99 wrote:There are four serious goat candidates

Wilt

LeBron

Kareem

Jordan

And you can rank them in any order it just depends on your way of thinking.

I think Russell's case is weak because its based on his team and teammates rather than his individual greatness.

As it is Questionable whether he was actually the best player on all 11 champs.



Heinsohn as good in 1957 & 59 POs. Sharman, Ramsey, Cousy also key. Sam Jones (10 champs) key, too, esp. 1963-67. Howell in 68-69.

Havlicek > Russ in 68 & 69.

Those teammates that won 35 games in 1970? Funny how Hondo was better than "Russ" in 1969, then got better in 1970, yet the Celtics went from an especially impressive championship run(knocked two of the best teams of the era) to missing the playoffs.

Russell blindsided the Celtics with his retirement which left them unable to draft a replacement for him.



Once Red found a replacement for him in Dave.

The Celtics became a great team again and we’re back in title contention.


Now compare that to Wilt”s 76er teams who outside of 1969 just crumbled once he left and were the worst team ever 5 years later.

OhayoKD wrote:

rk2023 wrote:

ty 4191 wrote:Does LeBron becoming the all time leading scorer change his all time ranking in your mind?

His legacy/greatness?

Discuss!!

I personally don't think it should, and it seems (generally speaking) those who have him as the greatest player of all time and those who don't will not ever change their opinions at this point without a significant perspective shift.

I don't quite like the term "GOAT", as basketball is very nuanced and careers for all-time great players are all different stories. For what it's worth, my view / analytical lens leads me to the opinion that James has the most valuable career of all time - a feat established before the scoring record.

More on the nuance, I think a rational approach depending on what one values should yield four GOAT candidates in Russell, Abdul-Jabbar, Jordan, and James (chronological, for simplicity)

Raising or lowering Lebron's peak would do the trick for many

I see LeBron's apex (in my opinion, 2009) to be the most valuable season and #1 peak - 2012 and 13 are good shouts for this placement as well. Extended/later prime years such as 2020, 2017 very much impress me as well. When the board does Greatest Careers, I will elaborate more.

rk2023 wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

rk2023 wrote:
I personally don't think it should, and it seems (generally speaking) those who have him as the greatest player of all time and those who don't will not ever change their opinions at this point without a significant perspective shift.

I don't quite like the term "GOAT", as basketball is very nuanced and careers for all-time great players are all different stories. For what it's worth, my view / analytical lens leads me to the opinion that James has the most valuable career of all time - a feat established before the scoring record.

More on the nuance, I think a rational approach depending on what one values should yield four GOAT candidates in Russell, Abdul-Jabbar, Jordan, and James (chronological, for simplicity)

Raising or lowering Lebron's peak would do the trick for many

I see LeBron's apex (in my opinion, 2009) to be the most valuable season and #1 peak - 2012 and 13 are good shouts for this placement as well. Extended/later prime years such as 2020, 2017 very much impress me as well. When the board does Greatest Careers, I will elaborate more.

I think we should normalize 2016 being > or comprable to 2012/2013 tbh.

coastalmarker99 wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

coastalmarker99 wrote:There are four serious goat candidates

Wilt

LeBron

Kareem

Jordan

And you can rank them in any order it just depends on your way of thinking.

I think Russell's case is weak because its based on his team and teammates rather than his individual greatness.
As it is Questionable whether he was actually the best player on all 11 champs.

Heinsohn as good in 1957 & 59 POs. Sharman, Ramsey, Cousy also key. Sam Jones (10 champs) key, too, esp. 1963-67. Howell in 68-69.

Havlicek > Russ in 68 & 69.

Those teammates that won 35 games in 1970? Funny how Hondo was better than "Russ" in 1969, then got better in 1970, yet the Celtics went from an especially impressive championship run(knocked two of the best teams of the era) to missing the playoffs.

Russell blindsided the Celtics with his retirement which left them unable to draft a replacement for him.

Once Red found a replacement for him in Dave.

The Celtics became a great team again and we’re back in title contention.

Now compare that to Wilt”s 76er teams who outside of 1969 just crumbled once he left and were the worst team ever 5 years later.

You mean how they were a 4.8 SRS team (third in the league), then a 3.3 SRS team (third in the league), then a 1.7 SRS team (seventh in the league)? Yeah, crippling collapse right there.

I also seem to remember the 1970 Lakers continuing along fine without Wilt too.

He was already GOAT in my book, so this only affirms it.

Though I'd love to see him win a 5th ring before retiring.