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Better Defensieve Career:

Kobe or KD

Come on, how is this debatable? Lebron is much better than the other two.

What is LeBron doing here?

Durant vs Kobe is an interesting comparison though, I think Durant has chances to have better defensive longevity (strong season defensively as 34yo while Kobe since 2010/2011 was a no-show on that end) and I'm pretty sure advanced stats will show they were mostly okay to good defensively (Durant since 2012/2013 and Bryant besides 05-07 period until ~2011). Both got/get benefit of a doubt defensively regularly (Durant has strong reputation for his Warriors' days that is not supported by too much data), obv Kobe on much bigger scale, so I believe that's the difference here in terms of accolades, not actually based by their impact. Both stronger defensively when their effort was right than overall data suggests.

The Master wrote:What is LeBron doing here?

Durant vs Kobe is an interesting comparison though, I think Durant has chances to have better defensive longevity (strong season defensively as 34yo while Kobe since 2010/2011 was a no-show on that end) and I'm pretty sure advanced stats will show they were mostly okay to good defensively (Durant since 2012/2013 and Bryant besides 05-07 period until ~2011). Both got/get benefit of a doubt defensively regularly (Durant has strong reputation for his Warriors' days that is not supported by too much data), obv Kobe on much bigger scale, so I believe that's the difference here in terms of accolades, not actually based by their impact. Both stronger defensively when their effort was right than overall data suggests.

Are you implying that LeBron doesn't have an argument over either player defensively? Or are you implying that he's very clearly better than both of them that he shouldn't even be mentioned here in the first place?

TheLand13 wrote:

The Master wrote:What is LeBron doing here?

Durant vs Kobe is an interesting comparison though, I think Durant has chances to have better defensive longevity (strong season defensively as 34yo while Kobe since 2010/2011 was a no-show on that end) and I'm pretty sure advanced stats will show they were mostly okay to good defensively (Durant since 2012/2013 and Bryant besides 05-07 period until ~2011). Both got/get benefit of a doubt defensively regularly (Durant has strong reputation for his Warriors' days that is not supported by too much data), obv Kobe on much bigger scale, so I believe that's the difference here in terms of accolades, not actually based by their impact. Both stronger defensively when their effort was right than overall data suggests.

Are you implying that LeBron doesn't have an argument over either player defensively? Or are you implying that he's very clearly better than both of them that he shouldn't even be mentioned here in the first place?

He is very clearly above.

TheLand13 wrote:Are you implying that LeBron doesn't have an argument over either player defensively? Or are you implying that he's very clearly better than both of them that he shouldn't even be mentioned here in the first place?

The latter. No disrespect to the OP for this question itself, it's obviously fine to ask about anything, but yeah, I don't think there's a legit case to be made for KB or KD. On the other hand, Durant vs Kobe is an interesting one.

Lebron > Kobe > KD although I think KD is underrated defensively because he never got any accolades. Kobe was really good as a young player circa 2000-2001 and stepped up at times in the postseason.

Have Durant or Kobe, in their respective careers, accrued as much defensive value as James from just 2009-13?

Better defensive career: Moses Malone, Vlade Divac, or Tim Duncan?

I'm a Kobe fan but I call shenanigans here

I'm not as high on Lebron's defense as most people, but even my Lebron-negative take has the King in a much higher tier than KD/KB.

I think if we could turn this into a KD vs. KB defensive thread it could be salvaged. That's a fun debate I think. Both had big defensive tools but only focused on defense for small chunks of their illustrious careers. Kobe cut his teeth as an eye-popping point of attack defender when he was a young pup, but he was quick to shed those responsibilities once he became an established MVP-level offensive star. KD had a different trajectory. OKC basically hired guys to do the dirty work to keep Durant away from it. Sefolosha then Roberson mostly. I always found KD super low impact on defense and disinterested looking. But then he dialed it up a few times in OKC, and made us notice: oh wow that man is near 7 feet, with long arms, and moves his feet like a guard... that's pretty useful. Even low-effort KD was effortlessly picking up "stocks" for most of his career. Then in Golden State, where his offensive load was entirely negotiable, we saw how KD could fit on a high-level defensive team. He still wasn't a highly focused defender, but his ability to add rim protection with that length, while still being very switchable on the perimeter was a rare combination. Kobe was also capable of dialing up his defense and giving us some throwback moments, plus he was also capable of providing some value as a help defender at the nail when he had jumbo frontcourt behind him. Kobe had good anticipation and was capable of being a defensive playmaker. Mostly though it felt like Kobe was very rarely putting in big effort on defense. Neither of these two spent much of their careers super dialed in. At the end of the day I'd probably take KD's size over Kobe's quicker feet. They're both probably capable of being the 3rd best defender in a defensive lineup, but anymore than that and your defense probably isn't good. They've spent plenty of time being the 4th best defender too in their career, which is nothing to write home about. They've both also had seasons where they might have been a defensive 2.

mdonnelly1989 wrote:Better Defensieve Career:

Of course assuming we have a decent idea of how KD and Lebrons defensive careers will end up.

The current 14, 0, 0 votes answer this question well.

cupcakesnake wrote:IAt the end of the day I'd probably take KD's size over Kobe's quicker feet.

IIRC, according to ElGee's evaluations, Kobe wasn't that good in defending players with quick first step on perimeter since his offensive role got bigger, what obviously had a lot in relation to his offensive usage and defensive focus.

First and foremost, I believe that high-volume offensive players more capable of positive impact on team D will scale better in different schemes, just because good rotations are less energy (and mentally) consuming, I think, than on-ball perimeter D. That is why LeBron post-2013, even though he lost some share of his GOAT-athleticism, was still capable most of the time until 2021s injury to be a positive defender with good impact-data in the playoffs. I can see Durant as a small-ball 4, and I can see him as more of a perimeter defender with easier defensive assignment focused on help D (I think his defensive peak is '16-17 period, and he thrived in both roles these years) - I don't see that much of similar portability from Kobe to be honest.

On the other hand, his early years are definitely an advantage for KB, if his All-NBA D teams were deserved at any point, this is more or less 21-22/23yo period -- but still, in 00-10 period he was net negative in -1.0 rDRTG defensive teams, so I don't think it moves a needle here, even if he gives you quality on-ball D if he's focused.

But like I said in my previous post, I believe their advanced stats will be pretty comparable, and people forget that it's still pretty good to be even slightly positive defensively with such a big offensive load. So we speak about Bryant's defense mostly in negative way (through his resume based on accolades), but actually I think he's above-average defender for volume scorers in the XXI century (esp among guards).

I've come to my senses, haha. Kobe V KD

AEnigma wrote:Better defensive career: Moses Malone, Vlade Divac, or Tim Duncan?

As long as you don't call Timmy the defensive goat. I've seen a few people actually argue this.

For Kobe vs Durant, there probably isn’t much difference either way. I voted Kobe, because I feel he was probably a positive in more seasons. I don’t have a strong opinion on this one, and probably wouldn’t even look at it if I was comparing them overall. Durant is interesting though, because he definitely has more upside than Kobe being a long 6’9-6’10, but he never struck me as a very high IQ defensive guy.

SHAQ32 wrote:

AEnigma wrote:Better defensive career: Moses Malone, Vlade Divac, or Tim Duncan?

As long as you don't call Timmy the defensive goat. I've seen a few people actually argue this.

IDK about GOAT, but I'm not sure anyone has a better argument for #2

Jaivl wrote:

SHAQ32 wrote:

AEnigma wrote:Better defensive career: Moses Malone, Vlade Divac, or Tim Duncan?

As long as you don't call Timmy the defensive goat. I've seen a few people actually argue this.

IDK about GOAT, but I'm not sure anyone has a better argument for #2

I feel like there is no clear number 2 after Russell. I imagine Hakeem/Duncan/KG/Mutumbo are the favorites for that spot. Maybe you can throw Drob in there, I don’t think there’s much of a case for anyone after that. Mayybee Wilt? But that seems like a stretch.