How lucky were the 1990's Bulls not to suffer from serious injuries to their stars during their title runs.

[coastalmarker99]

Jordan's starters played in 99% of their playoff games between 90-98.

As they missed 5 total games in 8 years.

They easily should’ve missed 10-20X with that rate.

That's incredible Luck that the Bulls got compared to other dynasty in NBA history.

GSW broke down in 2019 which cost them a three peat

Showtime broke down in 1989 which cost them a three peat.

Bird's Celtics broke down in 1987 which cost them a fourth ring in six years.

Lebron's heat broke down in 2014 which cost them a three peat.



I do wonder how we would view Jordan's legacy nowadays had his co-stars gone down in key playoff runs during his prime years as Wilt's and Lebron's did.


As MJ was 9-16 in playoff games either missing key teammates, or with injured teammates missing big minutes.

He was 1-5 in Conference Finals games and 1-2 in Finals games. 2-7.

Excluding these games, he was 28-11 in CF and 23-9 in Finals.

That’s a huge swing as MJ’s winning PCT went from 72% to 22%.


So if let's say Pippen goes down in 1998 or Rodman goes down in 1996.


Jordan could easily be sitting on 4 rings despite being the same player.


While likewise had Lebron avoided Kyrie and AD going down in 2015 and 2021.

he could easily be sitting on 6 rings right now and the ring argument between them would be the complete opposite

[Blackmill]

The Bulls were definitely very lucky. When you look at history, as you've noted, health has a been a huge factor in many strong teams either not repeating, or not even making the finals. I don't think this warrants "discounting" Jordan's achievements, although I do think this contributes to the Jordan mythos. The "six for six" argument, albeit reductive and not valued here on realgm, is probably still a convincing argument for much of the public. If that were gone, I could imagine there being a very large shift in the general public's perception of who's the GOAT. Although here, on realgm, I would hope there wouldn't be much change. After all, Jordan wouldn't be a different player if his teammates got hurt.

[migya]

Lebron had all his star teammates healthy in his championship years. The Warriors were hobbled in 2016 or would've won. Jordan's finals opponents were all healthy except 91 Lakers, with Worthy and Scott playing but carrying injuries.

[AussieBuck]

Is Chris Paul also uninjured in this scenario?

[Jaivl]

No, Jordan crafted his teammates into the ultimate ironmen with his superior work ethic, tenacity and leadership.

[ardee]

No, Jordan crafted his teammates into the ultimate ironmen with his superior work ethic, tenacity and leadership.

I know you're being sarcastic here, but Jordan did actually get Pippen and Grant to lift with him under Grover, which no doubt played a role in their durability.

[picko]

There is a luck component in every championship and to go 6-0 you need to be very lucky indeed.

Lebron had all his star teammates healthy in his championship years. The Warriors were hobbled in 2016 or would've won. Jordan's finals opponents were all healthy except 91 Lakers, with Worthy and Scott playing but carrying injuries.

Kevin Love was concussed in game two of the 2016 finals, missed game three and played the rest of the series with the lingering impact of a brain injury.

[Homer38]

Lebron had all his star teammates healthy in his championship years. The Warriors were hobbled in 2016 or would've won. Jordan's finals opponents were all healthy except 91 Lakers, with Worthy and Scott playing but carrying injuries.

Bosh was out for all of the playoffs game in 2012...Wade was not healthy and it hurt his impact big time in the 2013 playoffs.And not forget that Kevin Love had a concussion in the 2016 finals,a huge reason for his weak production.Jordan never had a year like 2015 for LBJ come playoffs time too,injuries wise....

[rrravenred]

Not all training and medical staffs are the same, as is load management / game style.

Luck is a factor, but not the only player on the court.

[Owly]

Jordan's finals opponents were all healthy except 91 Lakers, with Worthy and Scott playing but carrying injuries.

Though not stated, perhaps you are limiting this to mostly starters as OP talks about starters. Still, otoh:
93: Ceballos (started 46 games of 76 played)
96: McMillan (played some games, but hurt, missed other)

Not including "banged up", "gimpy" reports because Pippen '98 wasn't always in good shape especially in that series and this isn't covered in OP ... but if one were talking literally "all healthy" '98 Stockton (full year) and Hornacek (playoffs/finals) wouldn't necessarily meet that (though these are otoh, there may well be more on both sides and dinged up type stuff (injury stuff in general but especially lower level stuff), public knowledge is imperfect.

Not all training and medical staffs are the same, as is load management / game style.

Luck is a factor, but not the only player on the court.

True and pertinent. But for the purposes of many parsing credit which tends to focus on players, coaches and maybe GMs insofar as roster construction, whether the organization happened to get a good outcome (not necessarily good process) in putting in place training and medical staff could functionally go in the luck pile in assessing player's luck (OP cite's "Star X's team") regarding healthy self and teammates. But certainly cheap organizations can damage their assets and their prospects that way (not a contender but thinking Sterling-era Clippers plausibly may have done this).


More generally health luck is a significant part in any title (beyond their own health injuries to would-be opponents can affect matchups). That basketball puts the title into a late season tournament, with small sample (broken into smaller samples which can knock you out), when players are more banged up makes luck more important: it means there's less of a chance for injuries/injury luck to even out and puts a premium on late season health.

[TheGOATRises007]

There is a luck component in every championship and to go 6-0 you need to be very lucky indeed.

Lebron had all his star teammates healthy in his championship years. The Warriors were hobbled in 2016 or would've won. Jordan's finals opponents were all healthy except 91 Lakers, with Worthy and Scott playing but carrying injuries.

Kevin Love was concussed in game two of the 2016 finals, missed game three and played the rest of the series with the lingering impact of a brain injury.

You never want to see players injured, but that might have benefited them since Love was unplayable vs the Warriors.

[OhayoKD]

There is a luck component in every championship and to go 6-0 you need to be very lucky indeed.

Lebron had all his star teammates healthy in his championship years. The Warriors were hobbled in 2016 or would've won. Jordan's finals opponents were all healthy except 91 Lakers, with Worthy and Scott playing but carrying injuries.

Kevin Love was concussed in game two of the 2016 finals, missed game three and played the rest of the series with the lingering impact of a brain injury.

I'd also guess migya really hypes Jordan's 1989 triumph against the cavs...enabled by cleveland's best player getting hurt, missing a game, and being hobbled throughout as well as various knocks for other starters. Much stronger case there for injuries turning a likely loss into a win, and that is basically Jordan's signature "won against the odds" moment

[OhayoKD]

Lebron had all his star teammates healthy in his championship years. The Warriors were hobbled in 2016 or would've won. Jordan's finals opponents were all healthy except 91 Lakers, with Worthy and Scott playing but carrying injuries.

Bosh was out for all of the playoffs game in 2012...Wade was not healthy and it hurt his impact big time in the 2013 playoffs.And not forget that Kevin Love had a concussion in the 2016 finals,a huge reason for his weak production.Jordan never had a year like 2015 for LBJ come playoffs time too,injuries wise....

And rather tellingly, his Bulls failed to replicate the performance of the 15 cavs(without kyrie or love) until the deck was stacked

[Owly]

There is a luck component in every championship and to go 6-0 you need to be very lucky indeed.

Lebron had all his star teammates healthy in his championship years. The Warriors were hobbled in 2016 or would've won. Jordan's finals opponents were all healthy except 91 Lakers, with Worthy and Scott playing but carrying injuries.

Kevin Love was concussed in game two of the 2016 finals, missed game three and played the rest of the series with the lingering impact of a brain injury.

I'd also guess migya really hypes Jordan's 1989 triumph against the cavs...enabled by cleveland's best player getting hurt, missing a game, and being hobbled throughout as well as various knocks for other starters. Much stronger case there for injuries turning a likely loss into a win, and that is basically Jordan's signature "won against the odds" moment

Not going to hypothesize on what others think.
Price as the best Cav ... he's the popular choice and probably the first on the board ... but versus Nance in particular and honestly looking at the numbers all the top 5 (not the starting 5, Williams, not Sanders) it's close enough that it's not a given and it's not a typical best player dynamic so I personally wouldn't label it like that. Especially as I think he's the weakest defender (though non-quantative reporting is higher on his D earlier than later career).

Mind you Wilkens reported Nance was hurting/injured for the Bulls series too. I have seen a summary or two suggesting Mahorn's halfcourt concussion-causing elbow, turned Price's and/or the Cavs season though I don't know whether the numbers justify that conclusion.

[OhayoKD]

There is a luck component in every championship and to go 6-0 you need to be very lucky indeed.



Kevin Love was concussed in game two of the 2016 finals, missed game three and played the rest of the series with the lingering impact of a brain injury.

I'd also guess migya really hypes Jordan's 1989 triumph against the cavs...enabled by cleveland's best player getting hurt, missing a game, and being hobbled throughout as well as various knocks for other starters. Much stronger case there for injuries turning a likely loss into a win, and that is basically Jordan's signature "won against the odds" moment

Not going to hypothesize on what others think.
Price as the best Cav ... he's the popular choice and probably the first on the board ... but versus Nance in particular and honestly looking at the numbers all the top 5 (not the starting 5, Williams, not Sanders) it's close enough that it's not a given and it's not a typical best player dynamic so I personally wouldn't label it like that. Especially as I think he's the weakest defender (though non-quantative reporting is higher on his D earlier than later career).

Mind you Wilkens reported Nance was hurting/injured for the Bulls series too. I have seen a summary or two suggesting Mahorn's halfcourt concussion-causing elbow, turned Price's and/or the Cavs season though I don't know whether the numbers justify that conclusion.

That's fair

[trex_8063]

There is a luck component in every championship and to go 6-0 you need to be very lucky indeed.

Lebron had all his star teammates healthy in his championship years. The Warriors were hobbled in 2016 or would've won. Jordan's finals opponents were all healthy except 91 Lakers, with Worthy and Scott playing but carrying injuries.

Kevin Love was concussed in game two of the 2016 finals, missed game three and played the rest of the series with the lingering impact of a brain injury.

Not to mention Love missed almost all of the playoffs in '15, while Kyrie missed 5 of 6 games in the Finals (or they "would've won").

And in as much as the '16 Warriors were "hobbled", I'd also note for contrast that Wade was a shell in '14 [particularly by the Finals].

It's also not completely true that Worthy and Scott were playing thru the Finals (both missed 1 game).

[Dutchball97]

Getting injured = detrimental to title chances
Not getting injured = improves title chances

More news at 8.

[Heej]

Getting injured = detrimental to title chances
Not getting injured = improves title chances

More news at 8.

If this is what you got from this thread instead of the idea that MJ had outlier good luck then idk what to tell you. To be fair though Scottie was injured in 98 but this was offset by injuries to Stockton and Hornacek lol

[Dutchball97]

Getting injured = detrimental to title chances
Not getting injured = improves title chances

More news at 8.

If this is what you got from this thread instead of the idea that MJ had outlier good luck then idk what to tell you. To be fair though Scottie was injured in 98 but this was offset by injuries to Stockton and Hornacek lol

The great thing is you don't have to tell me anything

We're just not going to acknowledge the point that's already been brought up in this thread that it wasn't a coincidence that Jordan's teammates (or Jordan for that matter) didn't get injured that much because they were big on physical fitness? We're just going to write up injuries entirely up to luck? Especially important to ignore that LeBron willingly teamed up with Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love and AD despite them all having a history with injuries and just call him unlucky. Even besides that let's ignore every single title needs some form of luck to happen. Man if only I could ever become as objective as the guy with the LeBron profile picture who is only interested in talking positively about LeBron!

Now let's all hold hands and chant together! Jordan bad! Jordan bad! Jordan bad!

[OhayoKD]

There is a luck component in every championship and to go 6-0 you need to be very lucky indeed.

Lebron had all his star teammates healthy in his championship years. The Warriors were hobbled in 2016 or would've won. Jordan's finals opponents were all healthy except 91 Lakers, with Worthy and Scott playing but carrying injuries.

Kevin Love was concussed in game two of the 2016 finals, missed game three and played the rest of the series with the lingering impact of a brain injury.

Not to mention Love missed almost all of the playoffs in '15, while Kyrie missed 5 of 6 games in the Finals (or they "would've won").

And in as much as the '16 Warriors were "hobbled", I'd also note for contrast that Wade was a shell in '14 [particularly by the Finals].

It's also not completely true that Worthy and Scott were playing thru the Finals (both missed 1 game).

Even "hobbled", that warriors team came from 3-1 down with their star fresh off an injury to beat a thunder team that played 65-win ball at full strength and thumped a 70-win pace Spurs. Never mind love being a shell all series long due to a concussion or missng a game himself.

Talk about reaching.