2023 Jokic vs 2016 Steph: RS only

ardee · Post #1 » by **ardee** » Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:34 pm

Who do you have?

Pelly24 · Post #2 » by **Pelly24** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:33 am

Joker. He's been that insane. His ability to pass and score on Steph efficiency

TheGOATRises007 · Post #3 » by **TheGOATRises007** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:42 am

I'd still lean Steph, but it's very very close.

Jokic has been incredible and should be the runaway MVP again.

Gregoire · Post #4 » by **Gregoire** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:01 am

Curry clearly. It was more difficult era for attacking players.

B-easy · Post #5 » by **B-easy** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:54 pm

Jokic. 25/11/10 on 70% TS is probably GOAT RS.

No-more-rings · Post #6 » by **No-more-rings** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:35 pm

Very close, but Jokic just feels like more of a force to me. The 73 wins thing helps Curry’s case, but Jokic’s teammates aren’t good enough to pull off a record like that.

OhayoKD · Post #7 » by **OhayoKD** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:40 pm

Probably steph, at least going-era relative

Gregoire wrote:Curry clearly. It was more difficult era for attacking players.

Here's your regularly timed reminder that it being harder to score doesn't actually matter when we're comparing players based on how they compare to their peers

RCM88x · Post #8 » by **RCM88x** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:37 pm

Curry to me. His 3pt shooting was far more game bending than Jokic's passing. Ultimately Jokic still relies a bit on his teamates to move around to realize the value he creates. Don't feel the same way about Curry's shooting that season.

iggymcfrack · Post #9 » by **iggymcfrack** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:46 pm

Can I vote for a tie? LOL. I feel like they're almost impossible to separate. If anything, I might give a slight edge to Steph for being super durable that season. He only missed 3 games the entire regular season and averaged 34.2 MPG even sitting a lot of 4th quarters while Jokic has already missed 8 games and is only playing 33.6 MPG. Their actual per minute impact on their respective teams, I don't know that I could choose. Might be the 2 best offensive seasons of all-time.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #10 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:58 pm

B-easy wrote:Jokic. 25/11/10 on 70% TS is probably GOAT RS.

It's up there but worth noting that others have put up huge off numbers and been dpoy or close to it on the def end at the same time.

Peregrine01 · Post #11 » by **Peregrine01** » Wed Feb 22, 2023 6:28 am

If we're just talking offense...

2016 Steph's on/off ORTG: +14 (ORTG of 119 when on court, +12 over league average)
2023 Jokic's on/off ORTG: +18 (ORTG of 126 when on court, +12 over league average)

And for total on/off:

2016 Steph: +21
2023 Jokic: +27 (!!!)

I used to think 2016 Steph was the greatest offensive regular season ever but Jokic is churning out a similar level of offense as Curry did (relative to league average) while having notably less offensive talent around him. I think I lean Jokic.

Peregrine01 · Post #12 » by **Peregrine01** » Wed Feb 22, 2023 6:43 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
B-easy wrote:Jokic. 25/11/10 on 70% TS is probably GOAT RS.

It's up there but worth noting that others have put up huge off numbers and been dpoy or close to it on the def end at the same time.

I think of modern MVPs only Curry has put up an on/off differential of above +20 in a single season. Jokic is at +27 this year.

Of other notable MVPs in the modern era, these are the highest on/off's that they've every achieved:

Lebron: +18
Dirk: +17
KD: +16
Nash: +16
Giannis: +14
Kobe: +12
Harden: +11

Obviously on/off is not the be all and end all and Jokic's massive on/off benefits from his team just falling apart whenever he sits. But when he's on, his plus/minus also routinely ranks near the highest in the league.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #13 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Wed Feb 22, 2023 7:34 am

Peregrine01 wrote:
I think of modern MVPs only Curry has put up an on/off differential of above +20 in a single season. Jokic is at +27 this year.

Of other notable MVPs in the modern era, these are the highest on/off's that they've every achieved:

Lebron: +18
Dirk: +17
KD: +16
Nash: +16
Giannis: +14
Kobe: +12
Harden: +11

Obviously on/off is not the be all and end all and Jokic's massive on/off benefits from his team just falling apart whenever he sits. But when he's on, his plus/minus also routinely ranks near the highest in the league.

I was referring to offensive numbers in my post just to clarify.

Peregrine01 · Post #14 » by **Peregrine01** » Wed Feb 22, 2023 7:40 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:
I think of modern MVPs only Curry has put up an on/off differential of above +20 in a single season. Jokic is at +27 this year.

Of other notable MVPs in the modern era, these are the highest on/off's that they've every achieved:

Lebron: +18
Dirk: +17
KD: +16
Nash: +16
Giannis: +14
Kobe: +12
Harden: +11

Obviously on/off is not the be all and end all and Jokic's massive on/off benefits from his team just falling apart whenever he sits. But when he's on, his plus/minus also routinely ranks near the highest in the league.

I was referring to offensive numbers in my post just to clarify.

2016 Steph's offensive on/off was +14
2023 Jokic's offensive on/off is currently +18

Proxy · Post #15 » by **Proxy** » Wed Feb 22, 2023 3:52 pm

Peregrine01 wrote:
I used to think 2016 Steph was the greatest offensive regular season ever but Jokic is churning out a similar level of offense as Curry did (relative to league average) while having notably less offensive talent around him. I think I lean Jokic.

Why do you say Jokic has notably less offensive talent around him this year? How would you rank the talent on the supporting casts offensively, and how do you value them each individually?

Peregrine01 · Post #16 » by **Peregrine01** » Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:30 pm

Proxy wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:
I used to think 2016 Steph was the greatest offensive regular season ever but Jokic is churning out a similar level of offense as Curry did (relative to league average) while having notably less offensive talent around him. I think I lean Jokic.

Why do you say Jokic has notably less offensive talent around him this year? How would you rank the talent on the supporting casts offensively, and do you value them each individually?

Probably because I just don't view Murray and MPJ in as high a light as Draymond, Klay that year. And there's always been a fairly strong degree of codependency between Dray and Steph whereas Jokic seems to turn out elite offenses no matter who's with him.

parsnips33 · Post #17 » by **parsnips33** » Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:20 pm

Peregrine01 wrote:
Proxy wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:
I used to think 2016 Steph was the greatest offensive regular season ever but Jokic is churning out a similar level of offense as Curry did (relative to league average) while having notably less offensive talent around him. I think I lean Jokic.

Why do you say Jokic has notably less offensive talent around him this year? How would you rank the talent on the supporting casts offensively, and do you value them each individually?

Probably because I just don't view Murray and MPJ in as high a light as Draymond, Klay that year. And there's always been a fairly strong degree of codependency between Dray and Steph whereas Jokic seems to turn out elite offenses no matter who's with him.

You have '16 Draymond above Murray and MPJ offense only?

No-more-rings · Post #18 » by **No-more-rings** » Wed Feb 22, 2023 6:23 pm

I love how with this comparison, Jokic leads in both box score and impact metrics, and Curry fans be like “What?!, no Curry is still better because I said so!”

parsnips33 · Post #19 » by **parsnips33** » Wed Feb 22, 2023 6:28 pm

No-more-rings wrote:I love how with this comparison, Jokic leads in both box score and impact metrics, and Curry fans be like “What?!, no Curry is still better because I said so!”

Why even have the discussion? Sounds like this one has been settled

OhayoKD · Post #20 » by **OhayoKD** » Wed Feb 22, 2023 6:41 pm

Peregrine01 wrote:If we're just talking offense...

2016 Steph's on/off ORTG: +14 (ORTG of 119 when on court, +12 over league average)
2023 Jokic's on/off ORTG: +18 (ORTG of 126 when on court, +12 over league average)

And for total on/off:

2016 Steph: +21
2023 Jokic: +27 (!!!)

I used to think 2016 Steph was the greatest offensive regular season ever but Jokic is churning out a similar level of offense as Curry did (relative to league average) while having notably less offensive talent around him. I think I lean Jokic.

anyone wanna breakdown lineup adjustment?