RealGM

Who is better? Prime KJ or current Ja?

I think Johnson was better on both ends of the floor (though not much on defense). Is there a reasonable case for Morant here?

Ja Morant...is clearly worst

Kevin Johnson (90 & 91): 29/14/5 Per 100, 59.5 TS%, 52.7 FTR, 5.4 OBPM, .210 WS/48, +335.4 TS+
Ja Morant (22 & 23): 39/11/8 Per 100, 56.7 TS%, 37.7 FTR, 5.9 OBPM, .166 WS/48, -29.5 TS+

The difference in efficiency, while Morant is playing in a league catered to his strengths, is drastic.

Are we sure about the defense part? Ja's defense evaluations jump everywhere. I think the data show that his opponents have the second lowest FG% against him, the lowest was Giannis'. Also Grizzlies' defense is the 2nd best in the league this year.

dygaction wrote:Are we sure about the defense part? Ja's defense evaluations jump everywhere. I think the data show that his opponents have the second lowest FG% against him, the lowest was Giannis'. Also Grizzlies' defense is the 2nd best in the league this year.

Yes, Morant is a horrible defender.

70sFan wrote:

dygaction wrote:Are we sure about the defense part? Ja's defense evaluations jump everywhere. I think the data show that his opponents have the second lowest FG% against him, the lowest was Giannis'. Also Grizzlies' defense is the 2nd best in the league this year.

Yes, Morant is a horrible defender.

If you are the coach, which areas do you want him to improve the most - Effort, not gamble, intuition, size, or something else?

When I saw the title of the thread, I figured with the recent off-court issues Ja has been having, this was going to be a question of "Which hyper athletic lead guard will end up being worse off the court?" I was prepared to say that unless Ja ends up getting somebody killed, KJ takes this all day considering the predatory piece of **** scumbag he is.

As far as players. I'd take Ja for sure. Kevin Johnson accomplished nothing of consequence in his NBA career. When he got to the NBA Finals, he was absolute garbage. I have no idea why people consider him great. KJ is Chris Paul - terrible durability and all - except instead of being a strong defender, he's neutral at best, and then decrease his offensive goodness/impact/effectiveness by about 30%. That's not a great player.

Ja isn't a great player by any stretch either yet. Those Grizzles are terrific, and while Ja doesn't hurt them, I never get the feeling that he's necessarily elevating them. Certainly not defensively, and even offensively, I feel like when he's on the court, they are a bit too Ja-centric relative to the very good passing team they are without him. That kid Desmond Bane is the current engine of that team for me.

All that said, I'd take Ja now and certainly to be superior as he matures. Plus, he's a draw. Jersey sales, must-watch TV, All-Star voting...the guy is super popular and can be the face of the NBA if he plays his cards right. He's got to get away from the knucklehead parasites he's hanging around with off the court though.

ronnymac2 wrote:When I saw the title of the thread, I figured with the recent off-court issues Ja has been having, this was going to be a question of "Which hyper athletic lead guard will end up being worse off the court?" I was prepared to say that unless Ja ends up getting somebody killed, KJ takes this all day considering the predatory piece of **** scumbag he is.

As far as players. I'd take Ja for sure. Kevin Johnson accomplished nothing of consequence in his NBA career. When he got to the NBA Finals, he was absolute garbage. I have no idea why people consider him great. KJ is Chris Paul - terrible durability and all - except instead of being a strong defender, he's neutral at best, and then decrease his offensive goodness/impact/effectiveness by about 30%. That's not a great player.

Ja isn't a great player by any stretch either yet. Those Grizzles are terrific, and while Ja doesn't hurt them, I never get the feeling that he's necessarily elevating them. Certainly not defensively, and even offensively, I feel like when he's on the court, they are a bit too Ja-centric relative to the very good passing team they are without him. That kid Desmond Bane is the current engine of that team for me.

All that said, I'd take Ja now and certainly to be superior as he matures. Plus, he's a draw. Jersey sales, must-watch TV, All-Star voting...the guy is super popular and can be the face of the NBA if he plays his cards right. He's got to get away from the knucklehead parasites he's hanging around with off the court though.

You are acting as if Ja has somehow accomplished something in his career.

Scraping by a Timberwolves team who choked away every game in Round 1 is his biggest accomplishment.

Colbinii wrote:

ronnymac2 wrote:When I saw the title of the thread, I figured with the recent off-court issues Ja has been having, this was going to be a question of "Which hyper athletic lead guard will end up being worse off the court?" I was prepared to say that unless Ja ends up getting somebody killed, KJ takes this all day considering the predatory piece of **** scumbag he is.

As far as players. I'd take Ja for sure. Kevin Johnson accomplished nothing of consequence in his NBA career. When he got to the NBA Finals, he was absolute garbage. I have no idea why people consider him great. KJ is Chris Paul - terrible durability and all - except instead of being a strong defender, he's neutral at best, and then decrease his offensive goodness/impact/effectiveness by about 30%. That's not a great player.

Ja isn't a great player by any stretch either yet. Those Grizzles are terrific, and while Ja doesn't hurt them, I never get the feeling that he's necessarily elevating them. Certainly not defensively, and even offensively, I feel like when he's on the court, they are a bit too Ja-centric relative to the very good passing team they are without him. That kid Desmond Bane is the current engine of that team for me.

All that said, I'd take Ja now and certainly to be superior as he matures. Plus, he's a draw. Jersey sales, must-watch TV, All-Star voting...the guy is super popular and can be the face of the NBA if he plays his cards right. He's got to get away from the knucklehead parasites he's hanging around with off the court though.

You are acting as if Ja has somehow accomplished something in his career.

Scraping by a Timberwolves team who choked away every game in Round 1 is his biggest accomplishment.

How am I acting as if Ja has accomplished something? I literally say "Ja isn't a great player by any stretch," and expound on that by talking about how unexceptional his impact is currently.

ronnymac2 wrote:

Colbinii wrote:

ronnymac2 wrote:When I saw the title of the thread, I figured with the recent off-court issues Ja has been having, this was going to be a question of "Which hyper athletic lead guard will end up being worse off the court?" I was prepared to say that unless Ja ends up getting somebody killed, KJ takes this all day considering the predatory piece of **** scumbag he is.

As far as players. I'd take Ja for sure. Kevin Johnson accomplished nothing of consequence in his NBA career. When he got to the NBA Finals, he was absolute garbage. I have no idea why people consider him great. KJ is Chris Paul - terrible durability and all - except instead of being a strong defender, he's neutral at best, and then decrease his offensive goodness/impact/effectiveness by about 30%. That's not a great player.

Ja isn't a great player by any stretch either yet. Those Grizzles are terrific, and while Ja doesn't hurt them, I never get the feeling that he's necessarily elevating them. Certainly not defensively, and even offensively, I feel like when he's on the court, they are a bit too Ja-centric relative to the very good passing team they are without him. That kid Desmond Bane is the current engine of that team for me.

All that said, I'd take Ja now and certainly to be superior as he matures. Plus, he's a draw. Jersey sales, must-watch TV, All-Star voting...the guy is super popular and can be the face of the NBA if he plays his cards right. He's got to get away from the knucklehead parasites he's hanging around with off the court though.

You are acting as if Ja has somehow accomplished something in his career.

Scraping by a Timberwolves team who choked away every game in Round 1 is his biggest accomplishment.

How am I acting as if Ja has accomplished something? I literally say "Ja isn't a great player by any stretch," and expound on that by talking about how unexceptional his impact is currently.

I'd take Ja for sure. Kevin Johnson accomplished nothing of consequence in his NBA career.

You literally said KJ hasn't accomplished anything. Most people here understand he didn't accomplish anything--in fact nobody here said he has accomplished anything.

Colbinii wrote:

ronnymac2 wrote:

Colbinii wrote:
You are acting as if Ja has somehow accomplished something in his career.

Scraping by a Timberwolves team who choked away every game in Round 1 is his biggest accomplishment.

How am I acting as if Ja has accomplished something? I literally say "Ja isn't a great player by any stretch," and expound on that by talking about how unexceptional his impact is currently.

I'd take Ja for sure. Kevin Johnson accomplished nothing of consequence in his NBA career.

You literally said KJ hasn't accomplished anything. Most people here understand he didn't accomplish anything--in fact nobody here said he has accomplished anything.

In his prime, KJ accomplished nothing of consequence. OP wants posters to compare his prime to Morant's current level of play. The fact that KJ in his prime accomplished a nothingburger comparable to what Ja has before the end of Year 3 seems relevant to me, thus why I said "in his prime, KJ accomplished nothing of consequence." I didn't make that statement as a (direct or indirect) counterpoint to anybody else's point.

Why interpret that as me saying Ja has accomplished anything of consequence? Especially as I went on to...I mean I picked Ja, but I didn't exactly champion Ja or his game.

dygaction wrote:

70sFan wrote:

dygaction wrote:Are we sure about the defense part? Ja's defense evaluations jump everywhere. I think the data show that his opponents have the second lowest FG% against him, the lowest was Giannis'. Also Grizzlies' defense is the 2nd best in the league this year.

Yes, Morant is a horrible defender.

If you are the coach, which areas do you want him to improve the most - Effort, not gamble, intuition, size, or something else?

Morant has been a negative defender his entire career but not this season.

Defensive On/Off RAPTOR: +2.0
Estimated plus/minus defense: +.3
DRAPM, +.9, 54th in the league

—Overall dFG% allowed, 42.4, -4.5% compared to everyone else
—3 pointers dFG%, 31.1%, -5.1% compared to everyone else [out of the 100+ Players who defend 4+ 3 pointers a game, 4th best in the NBA this year]
—Less Than 6 Ft dFG%, 56.1, -7.5%

76th %ile in ISO points per possession allowed
84th %ile in defending the ball-screen ball handler
93rd %ile in defending spot ups

I was gonna say, from my eye test (about 5 or 6 Grizz games this year), he looks significantly better on defense. Less of a gambler, a little more physical, a lot more effort. I know he doesn’t get tough assignments like Brooks and Bane, and that helps his numbers, but he no longer looks like Trae Young out there.

I have to admit, I haven't watched many Grizzlies games from this season so maybe Morant improved. He was horrible last season, but he's still young so such leaps can be possible.