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Everybody acknowledges the undoubtedly glaring similarity between Magic and LeBron. But I've always wondered what were key differences in Magic and LeBron's game? Who was better off ball? How far apart they as passers? How far apart are they on defense? Who had the better post game? I think Magic but how do you guys feel?


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TT8198 wrote:Everybody acknowledges the undoubtedly glaring similarity between Magic and LeBron. But I've always wondered what were key differences in Magic and LeBron's game? Who was better off ball? How far apart they as passers? How far apart are they on defense? Who had the better post game? I think Magic but how do you guys feel?

Bugger all, I accidentally refreshed my post away, lol.

Magic: post game, shooting ability and playmaking
Lebron: athleticism, PnR play, defense by a large margin

PnR play is largely era-related, since it wasn't really a thing for not-Utah to the degree which the league later adopted that set as core offense. Post play, Magic just looked more fluid and comfortable and in higher volume. Lebron from like 2012 forward does have an interesting argument to be made, though, because as ugly as a lot of his shooting form and so forth appears, he's quite effective.

As far as shooting ability, Magic's J isn't the prettiest thing (though vs Lebron, that matters less) and he wasn't a brilliant off-dribble shooter, but he was a far better FT shooter and still a nasty catch-and-shoot guy in his range. Developed his 3 towards the end of his career as well, though obviously no where near to Lebron's volume, so I"d suggest comparable ability there.

Athleticism isn't close, Lebron blows MAgic out of the water in terms of strength, north-south and east-west speed, first step and leaping ability. Magic was quick and mobile and all that but wasn't an elite athlete even in his own era, so that's no surprise there.

One of the first differences that comes to mind is their jump shooting. In the second half of his career, after '84 or '85, Magic's jump shot was pretty reliable. I think there was less season-to-season variation than LeBron has had with his jumper. That said, Magic's jump shots often came with his feet mostly set. He wouldn't usually turn a drive attempt into a pull up or a post up into a turn around fade away, although you can find some examples. I just don't think Magic had the legs to become really proficient with these types of shots. Instead, Magic became adept with a hook shot, and when you might see other players take a short range pull up or a turn around, he would use the hook shot.

Off ball, LeBron is easily better. He's a much better cutter, he's a better screen setter, he's more capable at sealing his man for deep post position, and overall, he's the better 3-point shooter.

As post players, I think LeBron is better, but there's a caveat. LeBron's post game, where he just buries the defender with his strength, probably leads to higher percentage shots than Magic can generate. But it also uses more energy than Magic taking a running sky hook, which otherwise, I prefer to a LeBron jumper from the post.

I do think Magic was the better passer, although because of how differently teams played and positioned on the floor in the 80s versus today, it's not quite an apples to apples comparison. In any case, I don't think the gap is very large. Pretty much every pass Magic could make, LeBron could too. I think the main difference is a slight advantage in recognition and execution by Magic, particularly on interior passes. Although LeBron is better at throwing darts to shooters on the weak side. Otherwise, the differences are small.

LeBron is far better defensively. Physically, he's stronger, faster, and has a better motor. Magic was a positive defender at times in his career. He had generally good awareness for help defense and helping the helper. During his defensive prime, he also made effort plays when the stakes were high (see 4th quarter of G4 in the 1987 finals, for instance). But it still isn't close, with LeBron being much better defensively in nearly every role. He's better in isolation, as low help, on close outs, in the post, etc.

tsherkin wrote:

TT8198 wrote:Everybody acknowledges the undoubtedly glaring similarity between Magic and LeBron. But I've always wondered what were key differences in Magic and LeBron's game? Who was better off ball? How far apart they as passers? How far apart are they on defense? Who had the better post game? I think Magic but how do you guys feel?

Bugger all, I accidentally refreshed my post away, lol.

Magic: post game, shooting ability and playmaking
Lebron: athleticism, PnR play, defense by a large margin

PnR play is largely era-related, since it wasn't really a thing for not-Utah to the degree which the league later adopted that set as core offense. Post play, Magic just looked more fluid and comfortable and in higher volume. Lebron from like 2012 forward does have an interesting argument to be made, though, because as ugly as a lot of his shooting form and so forth appears, he's quite effective.

As far as shooting ability, Magic's J isn't the prettiest thing (though vs Lebron, that matters less) and he wasn't a brilliant off-dribble shooter, but he was a far better FT shooter and still a nasty catch-and-shoot guy in his range. Developed his 3 towards the end of his career as well, though obviously no where near to Lebron's volume, so I"d suggest comparable ability there.

Athleticism isn't close, Lebron blows MAgic out of the water in terms of strength, north-south and east-west speed, first step and leaping ability. Magic was quick and mobile and all that but wasn't an elite athlete even in his own era, so that's no surprise there.

Thanks fot answering. I think Magic's shooting ability is one thing that gets undersold about his game and stigmatized. The general knock on Magic is his shooting ability and ppl think he's just a terrible shooter and that isn't the case. As you stated he's not a great off the dribble shot creator that's definitely a weakness of his but one indicator of a good shooter is their free throw percentage and Magic is a career 84.8 % free throw shooter which is really good and as you said far better than LeBron's whose actually a below average shooter. Magic was a very good catch & shoot shooter and contrary to popular belief Magic does provide respectable off ball capabilities and sp does LeBron in a different way

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Blackmill wrote:One of the first differences that comes to mind is their jump shooting. In the second half of his career, after '84 or '85, Magic's jump shot was pretty reliable. I think there was less season-to-season variation than LeBron has had with his jumper. That said, Magic's jump shots often came with his feet mostly set. He wouldn't usually turn a drive attempt into a pull up or a post up into a turn around fade away, although you can find some examples. I just don't think Magic had the legs to become really proficient with these types of shots. Instead, Magic became adept with a hook shot, and when you might see other players take a short range pull up or a turn around, he would use the hook shot.

Off ball, LeBron is easily better. He's a much better cutter, he's a better screen setter, he's more capable at sealing his man for deep post position, and overall, he's the better 3-point shooter.

As post players, I think LeBron is better, but there's a caveat. LeBron's post game, where he just buries the defender with his strength, probably leads to higher percentage shots than Magic can generate. But it also uses more energy than Magic taking a running sky hook, which otherwise, I prefer to a LeBron jumper from the post.

I do think Magic was the better passer, although because of how differently teams played and positioned on the floor in the 80s versus today, it's not quite an apples to apples comparison. In any case, I don't think the gap is very large. Pretty much every pass Magic could make, LeBron could too. I think the main difference is a slight advantage in recognition and execution by Magic, particularly on interior passes. Although LeBron is better at throwing darts to shooters on the weak side. Otherwise, the differences are small.

LeBron is far better defensively. Physically, he's stronger, faster, and has a better motor. Magic was a positive defender at times in his career. He had generally good awareness for help defense and helping the helper. During his defensive prime, he also made effort plays when the stakes were high (see 4th quarter of G4 in the 1987 finals, for instance). But it still isn't close, with LeBron being much better defensively in nearly every role. He's better in isolation, as low help, on close outs, in the post, etc.

It's interesting you gave the edge to post game to LeBron I always preferred Magic's just because I think Magic post game repertoire and passing out of the post was more polished largely because post game held more of an importance in his era nonetheless still better. But you made some great points I do I think Bron's post game is more effective if nothing more for his brute strength in the post and bully ball approach. You've convinced me the gap isn't as big as I originally thought. I also agree the gap is heavily in LeBron's favor on defense mainly due to athleticism and motor as you stated but I also think Magic's defense gets stigmatized as well. Magic wasn't a poor a defender like most think and actually a slightly above average defender if used correctly. Manic led the league in steals twice which isn't a indicator of a good defender per se but evidence of at least acute defensive awareness.

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TT8198 wrote:
Thanks fot answering. I think Magic's shooting ability is one thing that gets undersold about his game and stigmatized. The general knock on Magic is his shooting ability and ppl think he's just a terrible shooter and that isn't the case. As you stated he's not a great off the dribble shot creator that's definitely a weakness of his but one indicator of a good shooter is their free throw percentage and Magic is a career 84.8 % free throw shooter which is really good and as you said far better than LeBron's whose actually a below average shooter. Magic was a very good catch & shoot shooter and contrary to popular belief Magic does provide respectable off ball capabilities and sp does LeBron in a different way

Magic evolved as a shooter over the breadth of his career, but even early, he had better touch at the line than Lebron and had enough touch for his era, right? As he slowed/his knee got worse and the game became to integrate the 3 a little more, he adapted as well, which was good. He had weird form a bit, that sort of shotput thing, but it worked well enough. He was never a terrible shooter, but he did need to work on calling his own number a little more and developing his J, for sure. As you say, his FT% was a pretty good tell that he wouldn't have too much trouble developing his ability, and then he did it. Magic even led the league in FT% one year, and shot 90%+ in two different seasons towards the end of his career, so the touch was surely there.

Would have been interesting to see what he could do today with the more liberal dribbling calls and a lot more emphasis on PnR ball. He would likely still be the top playmaker in the league and he would still score very well in today's game, especially with so much space around him with shooters. He'd likely develop that 3 a little earlier in his career, and with his size and mobility, he'd be a desirable star player apart from his D, heh. He'd be a monster today, but it's always interesting to think about if/how players from previous eras might adapt. Magic is my favorite player, so I'm of course hella biased, naturally. THe same principle applies backwards to dudes like Jerry West and Oscar and so forth, naturally.

tsherkin wrote:

TT8198 wrote:
Thanks fot answering. I think Magic's shooting ability is one thing that gets undersold about his game and stigmatized. The general knock on Magic is his shooting ability and ppl think he's just a terrible shooter and that isn't the case. As you stated he's not a great off the dribble shot creator that's definitely a weakness of his but one indicator of a good shooter is their free throw percentage and Magic is a career 84.8 % free throw shooter which is really good and as you said far better than LeBron's whose actually a below average shooter. Magic was a very good catch & shoot shooter and contrary to popular belief Magic does provide respectable off ball capabilities and sp does LeBron in a different way

Magic evolved as a shooter over the breadth of his career, but even early, he had better touch at the line than Lebron and had enough touch for his era, right? As he slowed/his knee got worse and the game became to integrate the 3 a little more, he adapted as well, which was good. He had weird form a bit, that sort of shotput thing, but it worked well enough. He was never a terrible shooter, but he did need to work on calling his own number a little more and developing his J, for sure. As you say, his FT% was a pretty good tell that he wouldn't have too much trouble developing his ability, and then he did it. Magic even led the league in FT% one year, and shot 90%+ in two different seasons towards the end of his career, so the touch was surely there.

Would have been interesting to see what he could do today with the more liberal dribbling calls and a lot more emphasis on PnR ball. He would likely still be the top playmaker in the league and he would still score very well in today's game, especially with so much space around him with shooters. He'd likely develop that 3 a little earlier in his career, and with his size and mobility, he'd be a desirable star player apart from his D, heh. He'd be a monster today, but it's always interesting to think about if/how players from previous eras might adapt. Magic is my favorite player, so I'm of course hella biased, naturally. THe same principle applies backwards to dudes like Jerry West and Oscar and so forth, naturally.

Magic's J was definitely different but effective and as previously stated I think undeserving of the overall tag "bad shooter" . Again more so bad off the dribble shot creator. And yae there's numerous of players I fantasize to see in today's era. Magic would be an absolute monster in today's game. Just think if Ben Simmons is a multi time all star in today's era with all his clear deficiencies Magic'a low ceiling in today's game is All Star and high ceiling is top player in the entire league. Not to get side tracked but he has a better offensive package than Giannis right? Better passer, shooter, and crazy to say but give me Magic in transition as well when you include passing outside of LeBron whose better all time on the fast break?

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TT8198 wrote:Magic's J was definitely different but effective and as previously stated I think undeserving of the overall tag "bad shooter" . Again more so bad off the dribble shot creator.

Yeah, I mean, he developed over his career. Earlier on, it wasn't a strength for him but he changed it by the mid-80s. I dunno that "bad shooter" is the correct label, though, as you say. IT was more that it wasn't a strength for him initially.

Just think if Ben Simmons is a multi time all star in today's era with all his clear deficiencies

Well, you are basically discussing a 17/9/8 guy on like 59% TS, right? He has many deficiencies, but when he's healthy, he is still a quality player. Obviously not Magic, but perhaps a little underrated after the injuries and other issues he has, right?

Not to get side tracked but he has a better offensive package than Giannis right? Better passer, shooter, and crazy to say but give me Magic in transition as well when you include passing outside of LeBron whose better all time on the fast break?

Yeah, I mean in transition he's about as nasty as it gets, for sure. "Better offensive package than Giannis" is a tough one because we can see Giannis scoring at levels Magic never approached, and for like a half-decade straight. He's got physical tools Magic never approached, so even though he isn't in the same class as a shooter or playmaker, that becomes an interesting discussion lacking concrete evidence of what Magic would look like today. Or is at least worth that discussion, you know? And then when you factor in defense, that conversation extends, though obviously that's off-course from your remark.

Equivocation aside, I am inclined to agree with you. Even with the difference in volume scoring and physical tools, Magic probably crushes as an offensive force in today's game with competent spacing.

TT8198 wrote:

Blackmill wrote:One of the first differences that comes to mind is their jump shooting. In the second half of his career, after '84 or '85, Magic's jump shot was pretty reliable. I think there was less season-to-season variation than LeBron has had with his jumper. That said, Magic's jump shots often came with his feet mostly set. He wouldn't usually turn a drive attempt into a pull up or a post up into a turn around fade away, although you can find some examples. I just don't think Magic had the legs to become really proficient with these types of shots. Instead, Magic became adept with a hook shot, and when you might see other players take a short range pull up or a turn around, he would use the hook shot.

Off ball, LeBron is easily better. He's a much better cutter, he's a better screen setter, he's more capable at sealing his man for deep post position, and overall, he's the better 3-point shooter.

As post players, I think LeBron is better, but there's a caveat. LeBron's post game, where he just buries the defender with his strength, probably leads to higher percentage shots than Magic can generate. But it also uses more energy than Magic taking a running sky hook, which otherwise, I prefer to a LeBron jumper from the post.

I do think Magic was the better passer, although because of how differently teams played and positioned on the floor in the 80s versus today, it's not quite an apples to apples comparison. In any case, I don't think the gap is very large. Pretty much every pass Magic could make, LeBron could too. I think the main difference is a slight advantage in recognition and execution by Magic, particularly on interior passes. Although LeBron is better at throwing darts to shooters on the weak side. Otherwise, the differences are small.

LeBron is far better defensively. Physically, he's stronger, faster, and has a better motor. Magic was a positive defender at times in his career. He had generally good awareness for help defense and helping the helper. During his defensive prime, he also made effort plays when the stakes were high (see 4th quarter of G4 in the 1987 finals, for instance). But it still isn't close, with LeBron being much better defensively in nearly every role. He's better in isolation, as low help, on close outs, in the post, etc.

It's interesting you gave the edge to post game to LeBron I always preferred Magic's just because I think Magic post game repertoire and passing out of the post was more polished largely because post game held more of an importance in his era nonetheless still better. But you made some great points I do I think Bron's post game is more effective if nothing more for his brute strength in the post and bully ball approach. You've convinced me the gap isn't as big as I originally thought. I also agree the gap is heavily in LeBron's favor on defense mainly due to athleticism and motor as you stated but I also think Magic's defense gets stigmatized as well. Magic wasn't a poor a defender like most think and actually a slightly above average defender if used correctly. Manic led the league in steals twice which isn't a indicator of a good defender per se but evidence of at least acute defensive awareness.

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From what I've seen I think Magic may have been a tad more consistent as a scorer in the post, but interestingly I think Magic actually had more of a scorer's mindset in the post compared to Lebron, which may be the reason for that. Magic had a bigger repertoire of what I would characterize as "playground" moves, which while awkward, seemed to be very effective and consistent.

Lebron uses the post as an extension of his playmaking more than anything else. I think Lebron as a pass-first player is a myth, he clearly is more of a scorer, but the post may be the one exception to that while I think Magic was very much trying to score a lot of the time in the post.

tsherkin wrote:

TT8198 wrote:Magic's J was definitely different but effective and as previously stated I think undeserving of the overall tag "bad shooter" . Again more so bad off the dribble shot creator.

Yeah, I mean, he developed over his career. Earlier on, it wasn't a strength for him but he changed it by the mid-80s. I dunno that "bad shooter" is the correct label, though, as you say. IT was more that it wasn't a strength for him initially.

Just think if Ben Simmons is a multi time all star in today's era with all his clear deficiencies

Well, you are basically discussing a 17/9/8 guy on like 59% TS, right? He has many deficiencies, but when he's healthy, he is still a quality player. Obviously not Magic, but perhaps a little underrated after the injuries and other issues he has, right?

Not to get side tracked but he has a better offensive package than Giannis right? Better passer, shooter, and crazy to say but give me Magic in transition as well when you include passing outside of LeBron whose better all time on the fast break?

Yeah, I mean in transition he's about as nasty as it gets, for sure. "Better offensive package than Giannis" is a tough one because we can see Giannis scoring at levels Magic never approached, and for like a half-decade straight. He's got physical tools Magic never approached, so even though he isn't in the same class as a shooter or playmaker, that becomes an interesting discussion lacking concrete evidence of what Magic would look like today. Or is at least worth that discussion, you know? And then when you factor in defense, that conversation extends, though obviously that's off-course from your remark.

Equivocation aside, I am inclined to agree with you. Even with the difference in volume scoring and physical tools, Magic probably crushes as an offensive force in today's game with competent spacing.

Absolutely solely as a scorer the nod goes to Giannis but total offensive impact and reportire I give to Magic. The offense Magic generates himself and for others far exceeds Giannis. Meaning team would get a far more significant boost offensively adding Magic than Giannis. Just look at the career averages Magic is bringing you 11 apg compared to 4 and the Giannis is providing 22. 5 ppg to Magic's 19.5 which isn't too large of a gap. The gap between Magic as a passer to Giannis is far superior. I think Magic wins this easily offensively. And as you stated defense wasn't even a question.

But I think we both agree Magic is no less than a All Star today and would easily thrive in this era

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capfan33 wrote:

TT8198 wrote:

Blackmill wrote:One of the first differences that comes to mind is their jump shooting. In the second half of his career, after '84 or '85, Magic's jump shot was pretty reliable. I think there was less season-to-season variation than LeBron has had with his jumper. That said, Magic's jump shots often came with his feet mostly set. He wouldn't usually turn a drive attempt into a pull up or a post up into a turn around fade away, although you can find some examples. I just don't think Magic had the legs to become really proficient with these types of shots. Instead, Magic became adept with a hook shot, and when you might see other players take a short range pull up or a turn around, he would use the hook shot.

Off ball, LeBron is easily better. He's a much better cutter, he's a better screen setter, he's more capable at sealing his man for deep post position, and overall, he's the better 3-point shooter.

As post players, I think LeBron is better, but there's a caveat. LeBron's post game, where he just buries the defender with his strength, probably leads to higher percentage shots than Magic can generate. But it also uses more energy than Magic taking a running sky hook, which otherwise, I prefer to a LeBron jumper from the post.

I do think Magic was the better passer, although because of how differently teams played and positioned on the floor in the 80s versus today, it's not quite an apples to apples comparison. In any case, I don't think the gap is very large. Pretty much every pass Magic could make, LeBron could too. I think the main difference is a slight advantage in recognition and execution by Magic, particularly on interior passes. Although LeBron is better at throwing darts to shooters on the weak side. Otherwise, the differences are small.

LeBron is far better defensively. Physically, he's stronger, faster, and has a better motor. Magic was a positive defender at times in his career. He had generally good awareness for help defense and helping the helper. During his defensive prime, he also made effort plays when the stakes were high (see 4th quarter of G4 in the 1987 finals, for instance). But it still isn't close, with LeBron being much better defensively in nearly every role. He's better in isolation, as low help, on close outs, in the post, etc.

It's interesting you gave the edge to post game to LeBron I always preferred Magic's just because I think Magic post game repertoire and passing out of the post was more polished largely because post game held more of an importance in his era nonetheless still better. But you made some great points I do I think Bron's post game is more effective if nothing more for his brute strength in the post and bully ball approach. You've convinced me the gap isn't as big as I originally thought. I also agree the gap is heavily in LeBron's favor on defense mainly due to athleticism and motor as you stated but I also think Magic's defense gets stigmatized as well. Magic wasn't a poor a defender like most think and actually a slightly above average defender if used correctly. Manic led the league in steals twice which isn't a indicator of a good defender per se but evidence of at least acute defensive awareness.

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From what I've seen I think Magic may have been a tad more consistent as a scorer in the post, but interestingly I think Magic actually had more of a scorer's mindset in the post compared to Lebron, which may be the reason for that. Magic had a bigger repertoire of what I would characterize as "playground" moves, which while awkward, seemed to be very effective and consistent.

Lebron uses the post as an extension of his playmaking more than anything else. I think Lebron as a pass-first player is a myth, he clearly is more of a scorer, but the post may be the one exception to that while I think Magic was very much trying to score a lot of the time in the post.

Absolutely agree. Which makes me still give the edge to Magic in the post. If nothing more for what you just said and I've previously stated Magic had more of a post game repertoire and was a bigger part of his game. And if Bron's post game is largely an extension of playmaking as you stated I still give the edge to Magic as a post playmaker as well

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Blackmill wrote: I just don't think Magic had the legs to become really proficient with these types of shots.

Given how proficient some guys have been when they were quite late into their careers and with fading athleticism, I don't really see that, personally. You don't NEED killer elevation or whatever to gain separation on a fade, if that's what you were referring to. Maybe I misread your comment, though?

Off ball, LeBron is easily better. He's a much better cutter, he's a better screen setter, he's more capable at sealing his man for deep post position, and overall, he's the better 3-point shooter.

Not sure I'm with this either. Magic didn't evidence any more difficulty than Lebron getting excellent post position, and his 3pt shooting, which developed at the end of his first-run career, was comparable to Lebron's. And actually in 90 and 96, he had seasons that were above Lebron's average level. I think if he'd been shooting that his whole career, he'd be at least a little ahead, to be honest, as Lebron isn't a particularly impressive 3pt shooter (2013 notwithstanding).

Although LeBron is better at throwing darts to shooters on the weak side.

Is he? Magic sure found Scott and Coop in the corners all the time, and given the bullet-speed, high-accuracy passes he threw into the post and everywhere else, that seems like a bit of a stretch to me. If you want to talk about volume of usage for those passes, maybe there's something to it, but "better at" implies a proficiency difference, which I don't really see in Lebron's favor there. Prioritization, maybe, because that shot was looked at more as a bail-out after other options were exhausted in-era, but certainly not something that Lebron does more effectively.

That said, you might argue that LBJ driving around screens sets up for the corner three in higher volume, perhaps?

capfan33 wrote:From what I've seen I think Magic may have been a tad more consistent as a scorer in the post, but interestingly I think Magic actually had more of a scorer's mindset in the post compared to Lebron, which may be the reason for that. Magic had a bigger repertoire of what I would characterize as "playground" moves, which while awkward, seemed to be very effective and consistent.

Later in his career, he used elbow post to set up a lot of his playmaking, so I'm not entirely sure I agree that he was more of a scorer in mindset from the post than Lebron, particularly since he shot less overall and tended to post more even still.

Having said that, I suppose which portion of the post we're talking about matters. If Magic got to the low-block, then shy of his favored no-lookers right under the rim, I think you're right, he was often looking for the hook and/or the and-1. From the elbow, he tended to look for passes first, IMHO.

TT8198 wrote:Absolutely solely as a scorer the nod goes to Giannis but total offensive impact and reportire I give to Magic. The offense Magic generates himself and for others far exceeds Giannis. Meaning team would get a far more significant boost offensively adding Magic than Giannis. Just look at the career averages Magic is bringing you 11 apg compared to 4 and the Giannis is providing 22. 5 ppg to Magic's 19.5 which isn't too large of a gap. The gap between Magic as a passer to Giannis is far superior. I think Magic wins this easily offensively. And as you stated defense wasn't even a question.

I'm not sure that math really adds up, though I do agree that his playmaking tends to even out the difference. You can't just look at the gap in APG and translate that to points to even out the difference, particularly since Giannis has been scoring like 27-31 ppg for a decade, not just the career 22 ppg you're referencing (28.7 ppg from 2018 forward). That is a very large difference in volume scoring, and is averaging 5.5 apg in that timeframe as well. You couple that to the pressure he exerts with drawn fouls and his raw FG% and 2FG% and we start to have an interesting discussion. You can walk it back with how weak he is at the line and his lack of 3pt shooting/real jumper of any sort and that also becomes relevant, of course, but it's a little more complex than PPG + (2*APG), you know what I mean?

But I think we both agree Magic is no less than a All Star today and would easily thrive in this era

Oh, absolutely. Magic would be a top 3 player in the league without even blinking, for sure.

TT8198 wrote:

Blackmill wrote:<snip>

It's interesting you gave the edge to post game to LeBron I always preferred Magic's just because I think Magic post game repertoire and passing out of the post was more polished largely because post game held more of an importance in his era nonetheless still better. But you made some great points I do I think Bron's post game is more effective if nothing more for his brute strength in the post and bully ball approach. You've convinced me the gap isn't as big as I originally thought. I also agree the gap is heavily in LeBron's favor on defense mainly due to athleticism and motor as you stated but I also think Magic's defense gets stigmatized as well. Magic wasn't a poor a defender like most think and actually a slightly above average defender if used correctly. Manic led the league in steals twice which isn't a indicator of a good defender per se but evidence of at least acute defensive awareness.

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Magic definitely wasn't a bad defender in his era. I think his defensive awareness was excellent, and the effort was generally there. In a modern setting, some of his weaknesses would be exacerbated, which is maybe why some people think he was a poor defender. Or it's because of people watching his '91 finals, where his defensive was in fact poor. But that's a much slower version of Magic, who had to do everything offensively for the Lakers, since Worthy and Scott had a lot of trouble with their individual production, and both eventually left the series due to injury.

I did some tracking of Magic's 1984-1991 playoffs four or five years ago, and although I don't remember the exact numbers, his jump shooting in those playoffs was definitely not bad. Although he did benefit from teams giving him the open shot before Kareem started to really decline. Initially, many of his jump shots were a consequence of trying to get Kareem a post touch, and since teams would sag off Magic to deny the entry pass, Magic started shooting the open jumper as a counter.

I think if you want to argue that Magic's post game is superior, it's because he's a much better free throw shooter when fouled, which does matter quite a bit.

tsherkin wrote:

Blackmill wrote: I just don't think Magic had the legs to become really proficient with these types of shots.

Given how proficient some guys have been when they were quite late into their careers and with fading athleticism, I don't really see that, personally. You don't NEED killer elevation or whatever to gain separation on a fade, if that's what you were referring to. Maybe I misread your comment, though?

I'm more concerned about Magic's ability to turn and find balance in the air, rather than his elevation, which isn't just about the legs, but it does start with a player's points of contact to the ground. And it's undoubtedly harder to do that with a jump shot than with a hook shot.

Off ball, LeBron is easily better. He's a much better cutter, he's a better screen setter, he's more capable at sealing his man for deep post position, and overall, he's the better 3-point shooter.

Not sure I'm with this either. Magic didn't evidence any more difficulty than Lebron getting excellent post position, and his 3pt shooting, which developed at the end of his first-run career, was comparable to Lebron's. And actually in 90 and 96, he had seasons that were above Lebron's average level. I think if he'd been shooting that his whole career, he'd be at least a little ahead, to be honest, as Lebron isn't a particularly impressive 3pt shooter (2013 notwithstanding).

I just can't give the edge to Magic for 3pt shooting, when only his 1990 season was particularly good, and his 1996 season was on very low volume. For the record, I wasn't considering any era translation, but even if I did, I think Magic would be more tightly contested today. I think it takes some optimism to think Magic could match his season best efficiency, for multiple seasons, at a much higher volume, all while taking more difficult shots. It's certainly not impossible, but there should be a degree of uncertainty.

Although LeBron is better at throwing darts to shooters on the weak side.

Is he? Magic sure found Scott and Coop in the corners all the time, and given the bullet-speed, high-accuracy passes he threw into the post and everywhere else, that seems like a bit of a stretch to me. If you want to talk about volume of usage for those passes, maybe there's something to it, but "better at" implies a proficiency difference, which I don't really see in Lebron's favor there. Prioritization, maybe, because that shot was looked at more as a bail-out after other options were exhausted in-era, but certainly not something that Lebron does more effectively.

That said, you might argue that LBJ driving around screens sets up for the corner three in higher volume, perhaps?

Yeah, I think he is. Is there a large gap? No, but I'm comfortable saying LeBron is better here. Primarily, I think LeBron can make those bullet passes with slightly less wind up than Magic. If you think Magic is as good, I don't think that's an implausible conclusion, but it's not the one I've arrived at.

Blackmill wrote:I'm more concerned about Magic's ability to turn and find balance in the air, rather than his elevation, which isn't just about the legs, but it does start with a player's points of contact to the ground. And it's undoubtedly harder to do that with a jump shot than with a hook shot.

Okay, I see what you mean. I don't think that he would really have a huge issue with that, personally. He showed plenty of body control in and around the rim, so I don't think that translation would be a problem. I think with his height and shoulders, it was a lot simpler to just use the hook, though. Might have capped his range on the shot a little, since he surely wasn't bombing those from 15 feet very often, but that mattered to him only so much.

I just can't give the edge to Magic for 3pt shooting, when only his 1990 season was particularly good, and his 1996 season was on very low volume. For the record, I wasn't considering any era translation, but even if I did, I think Magic would be more tightly contested today. I think it takes some optimism to think Magic could match his season best efficiency, for multiple seasons, at a much higher volume, all while taking more difficult shots. It's certainly not impossible, but there should be a degree of uncertainty.

I feel you, the volume difference is there, though of course Lebron isn't really anything special as a 3pt shooter either, so I feel like it evens out. He's a 4.6 3PA/g player on his career, 4.1 prior to joining the Lakers. Magic's 1990 season stands up well against that, and of course percentage-wise, so does 96 but as you say, low volume and he also didn't play the whole season. It's obviously tough to tell because it wasn't the thing to do in Magic's era so we don't have a hot sample. I guess my point is more that he showed he could do it when he started to do it regularly, he was a notably superior FT shooter, he was a pretty good set shooter, I don't really see a reason why he wouldn't be better than Lebron over time because 3pt shooting is not one of James' major strengths.

But again, I see where you're coming from and I agree that it isn't an unshakeable certainty that Magic would necessarily be better. I'd bet on it, but that's not a rigorous examination of the situation, haha.

Yeah, I think he is. Is there a large gap? No, but I'm comfortable saying LeBron is better here. Primarily, I think LeBron can make those bullet passes with slightly less wind up than Magic. If you think Magic is as good, I don't think that's an implausible conclusion, but it's not the one I've arrived at.

Yeah, fair. We can agree to disagree on the nitty gritty because at the end of the day, Lebron is a magnificent passer who is sometimes underrated because everyone likes to give him grief for spamming PnR and being helio and whatever, but in both Miami and LA, he's shown all kinds of post passing ability and what have you and his vision is fantastic. For me, it's not about putting him down so much as recognizing Magic, because I absolutely look at Lebron as one of the best passers I've ever seen.

Magic much better decision maker, passer, court vision, better rebounder, post play, overall a more proficient offensive player more capable of leading an elite offense. LeBron a better scorer and more versatile defender. Both players pretty reasonably in the top 5-6 all time.

Overall, I don't think there is much of a debate that Lebron is the better player. However, in my opinion, Magic is a level above Lebron as a passer. Not sure how many posters watched Magic when he played but he was truly special. Lebron is a great, great passer in that he reads the defense brilliantly and finds the open man consistently. Magic found players that you didn't see were open. You had to watch the replay to understand what had happened. The only player that comes close currently is Jokic.