RealGM

Where would he rank?

Voted top 3 just to be cautious - but I could see him as the most trustworthy going into a playoff run out of the entire field of players. This is a far more athletic version of James whose scoring is likely amplified, and playing the four would bode well defensively.

Best player. +120 TS puts him really close to Jokic's ridiculous efficiency (+121) but you get a more complete two-way player. Then the argument is flipped against Giannis. Worse defense maybe, but better efficiency and playmaking

Clear number one. I love Jokic but cmon this is near peak LeBron. Put him on a team of shooters in 2023 and it's all over, he'd average 35/10/10 on ridiculous efficiency.

There’s a pretty easy argument that when healthy bron this year has been top 3-5 lol, with his three point jumper being completely broke this year.

2014 would for sure be first with today’s advantages.

Bro who said top 5 lmao

He’s been pretty badly hurt for about 20/60 games, and his impact in those games are a lot lower.

His season long LEBRON is 7th (iirc it climbed from like 20th or something), EPM is 10th.

RAPM is 16th, luck adjusted is 11th. Nature of RAPM means a few role players are above him, by all stars, he’s 8th and 6th respectively

This is with his early season being horrendous, which has fully had an impact on it because he has been steadily climbing since AD got hurt. He’s been hurt since the okc game as well.

Whole season net rtg
+10.0

Since coming back vs SAS
(37/46 games played)
+16.2

Missing games will make the actual net rtg lower than it should be of course

My recollection was that during that 17 game stretch AD was hurt and bron was the healthiest he’s been this year, he averaged 35/8/8 on 3 turnovers, and shot similar percentages inside the arc as Jokic is doing, on a team with no spacing, and the team had a top 3 offense taking out the games he missed, and he was something liek a net rtg of +25 in that stretch.


2014 lebron would be game breaking rn lol

I would go Lebron, because of PS performance not only that year, but prior years as well. Looking at the larger sample, I believe he performed better than anyone in the league right now and is the safer option. It's not just the championships either.

2014 PS Lebron in that particular PS

Inflation Adjusted 32 pts per 75 (rTS% of 14.5%)

Backpicks BPM-8
AuPM/G-4.6

ScoveVal-3.7 (Value of Scoring Relative to League Environment)
PlayVal-1 (Value of Playmaking Relative to League Environment)

2012-2014 PS Lebron

Inflation Adjusted 30.3 pts per 75 (rTS% of 9%)

Backpicks BPM-8.2
AuPM/G-5.9
BPM-10.4

ScoreVal-2.5
PlayVal-1.1


The 2 biggest competitors for best in the world to many of the people on this board and the public sphere are Giannis and Jokic. So taking a look at them.

2020-2022 Nikola Jokc


Backpicks BPM-6.4
AuPM/G-3.3
BPM-8.3

ScoreVal-1.6
PlayVal-1.7


2020-2022 Giannis Antetokounmpo


Backpicks BPM-6
AuPM/G-4.8
BPM-10.3

ScoreVal-1.0
PlayVal-0.9

Lebron is just a more proven commodity at this point, with less error bars. I do commend Giannis for being the leader of a truly historic PS defense, and that should not go unnoticed. I believe it is reasonable to have Giannis around the +2.5-3 threshold on defense if you would like. However, I don't see the evidence his aggregate impact is higher than what Lebron has produced historically.

With Jokic, not only does Lebron look better in aggregate impact, but I do not see clear evidence Jokic has outperformed Lebron offensively. Lebron's PS offenses have been better in this time span. A lot of context to shift through in regards to how to treat injuries, etc. but it is a substantial amount in which Lebron leads. Jokic's defense is more so a bigger question mark, as we don't know whether to treat him as a positive or negative. I think that lack of certainty makes Lebron a safer bet.

2012-2014 Miami had the 4th best common opponent offensive rating (minimum 20 games over a 3-year span) at +9.7, dating back to 1984, behind 15-17 Cleveland, the 05-07 Suns, and 99-01 Lakers.

Btw, with common-opponent ratings (cORTG), we compare how a good a team's offensive rating was versus with how other teams played against the same opponent in the playoffs. This is suggestive of the idea that Miami got more separation on offense against their their opponents, than the Nuggets. In other words, you could argue Miami beat the general baseline for their expected offensive rating by a greater margin than the Nuggets did.

Giannis is clearly better. Luka/Jokic/Curry/Embid have arguments. Lebron wasn't that much ahead of the pack in 2014(KD was probably better in the regular season) and the competition was significantly weaker(pre-prime westbrook and kd are what, your second and third best player despite really only being great at one of the major aspects of the game?(playmaking and scoring respectively))

LikeABosh wrote:Best player. +120 TS puts him really close to Jokic's ridiculous efficiency (+121) but you get a more complete two-way player. Then the argument is flipped against Giannis. Worse defense maybe, but better efficiency and playmaking

Well, a supposedly unpolished version of Giannis was probably able to achieve significantly more impressive rs and playoff lift than Lebron in 2019 even with the offense collapsing, so I'd suspect there's a chance people are understating the defensive gap.

Honestly defense may be underappreciated by people relying on intuition or even lineup-adjustment(artificial scale goes brr). The bucks go from slightly above average to -8-9 in the postseason with Giannis just trying. And that's in line with what was happening in the regular season for 19/20(bucks were way worse without giannis(10 point gap), even in brook minutes(7 point gap). Raptors were like 8 points worse from the field with Giannis on.

People throwing glorified box-composites and then adding some randomly constructed defensive evaluation(+2-3 is apparently the cap because um...why again?) doesn't really move me(not that you're doing this)

MyUniBroDavis wrote:There’s a pretty easy argument that when healthy bron this year has been top 3-5 lol, with his three point jumper being completely broke this year.

2014 would for sure be first with today’s advantages.

Bro who said top 5 lmao

He’s been pretty badly hurt for about 20/60 games, and his impact in those games are a lot lower.

His season long LEBRON is 7th (iirc it climbed from like 20th or something), EPM is 10th.

RAPM is 16th, luck adjusted is 11th. Nature of RAPM means a few role players are above him, by all stars, he’s 8th and 6th respectively

This is with his early season being horrendous, which has fully had an impact on it because he has been steadily climbing since AD got hurt. He’s been hurt since the okc game as well.

Whole season net rtg
+10.0

Since coming back vs SAS
(37/46 games played)
+16.2

Missing games will make the actual net rtg lower than it should be of course

My recollection was that during that 17 game stretch AD was hurt and bron was the healthiest he’s been this year, he averaged 35/8/8 on 3 turnovers, and shot similar percentages inside the arc as Jokic is doing, on a team with no spacing, and the team had a top 3 offense taking out the games he missed, and he was something liek a net rtg of +25 in that stretch.


2014 lebron would be game breaking rn lol

Imagine if we not only had 2014 Lebron today, but 2014 Lebron with fair reffing.

MyUniBroDavis wrote:There’s a pretty easy argument that when healthy bron this year has been top 3-5 lol, with his three point jumper being completely broke this year.

Considering *everyone* as healthy?

This one’s pretty easy. Just barely behind Jokic. Comfortably ahead of everyone else.

OhayoKD wrote:Giannis is clearly better.

What?

OhayoKD wrote:Giannis is clearly better. Luka/Jokic/Curry/Embid have arguments. Lebron wasn't that much ahead of the pack in 2014(KD was probably better in the regular season) and the competition was significantly weaker(pre-prime westbrook and kd are what, your second and third best player despite really only being great at one of the major aspects of the game?(playmaking and scoring respectively))

LeBron in 2014 significantly dialed it back in the RS in order to preserve for the postseason. If KD was “probably” better in RS, that’s a pretty clear indicator of how good LeBron still was at that point.

While I still give Giannis the ever so slight edge defensively, offensively it’s pretty lopsided in Lebron’s favor. I can’t see an argument for Giannis being better.

Current Giannis is much better than 2014 Lebron on defense. I'm talking like two tiers. And I think it's forgotten just how bad Lebron was defensively in the 2014 Finals especially over the last 3 games. Despite the nice efficiency, it was a subpar finals performance in terms of impact. Of course 2014 Lebron is also much better than Giannis on offense. Giannis exerts even bigger rim pressure and has a big advantage on the offensive glass but still have Lebron ahead on offense by a comfortable margin because of playmaking although the offensive gap is smaller than the defensive gap.

I voted top 3. I think Giannis is #1 and either Jokic or Lebron #2. I want to see the postseason before I make my mind up on Jokic. Curry/Durant missed too many games and Luka/Embiid could be argued but I want to see the postseason as with Jokic before I set my ranking in stone so to speak.

Probably top 4 or so. Rather have Giannis and Jokic. Strong argument could be made for Luka or Curry.

1a. LeBron
1b. Jokic

TheLand13 wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:Giannis is clearly better. Luka/Jokic/Curry/Embid have arguments. Lebron wasn't that much ahead of the pack in 2014(KD was probably better in the regular season) and the competition was significantly weaker(pre-prime westbrook and kd are what, your second and third best player despite really only being great at one of the major aspects of the game?(playmaking and scoring respectively))

LeBron in 2014 significantly dialed it back in the RS in order to preserve for the postseason. If KD was “probably” better in RS, that’s a pretty clear indicator of how good LeBron still was at that point.

While I still give Giannis the ever so slight edge defensively, offensively it’s pretty lopsided in Lebron’s favor. I can’t see an argument for Giannis being better.

Well, for one, Giannis is a vastly better defender

OhayoKD wrote:

TheLand13 wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:Giannis is clearly better. Luka/Jokic/Curry/Embid have arguments. Lebron wasn't that much ahead of the pack in 2014(KD was probably better in the regular season) and the competition was significantly weaker(pre-prime westbrook and kd are what, your second and third best player despite really only being great at one of the major aspects of the game?(playmaking and scoring respectively))

LeBron in 2014 significantly dialed it back in the RS in order to preserve for the postseason. If KD was “probably” better in RS, that’s a pretty clear indicator of how good LeBron still was at that point.

While I still give Giannis the ever so slight edge defensively, offensively it’s pretty lopsided in Lebron’s favor. I can’t see an argument for Giannis being better.

Well, for one, Giannis is a vastly better defender

Again, when LeBron chose to dial it back. The gap closes up pretty quickly when LeBron chooses to play that end.

Again, it’s really just not up for debate.

A month ago before Milwaukee turned things around, did people really hold Giannis at this level? Seemed opinions were a little down on him. Point is evaluating current players is tough because it's usually very recency-biased. Even a guy like Lebron who's still playing nearly a decade later and has high expectations placed on him.

Anyways, I voted first here. Not confidently but I feel pretty good about that answer. At this point in LeBron's career he was significantly more proven and accomplished in the postseason than either of these guys, and ultimately that is probably the tiebreaker for me. Plus, I still feel like the formula of having a large, physically dominating wing, who can initiate offense at a high level and also shoot quite well, is the ideal player in todays league. When Giannis is at his best he sorta played in this role more, initiating offense and playing more as a wing than a big. Jokic is a bit different obviously but probably skews more towards this role than any other player of his size ever has. Defensively, Giannis feels like a more sturdy option, but I don't quite feel like he makes up for the gap offensively, but it's certainly close.

Weird how people are using defense as an argument vs Jokic when that was one of Lebron’s worst defensive seasons