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I think doncic is the best halfcourt playmaker/creator ever. Like, imho nobody in history is more valuable at that heliocentric stuff. He's probably around a top 15 offensive players ever. Where would you rank him in a list of best halfcourt offensive players in general?

The OP is weird because it seems to assume that "heliocentric" play is optimal.

Do you mean specifically on-ball? I prefer a fair number if including off-ball play, not certain off the top, but likely somewhere in the later teens for me.

Ein Sof wrote:The OP is weird because it seems to assume that "heliocentric" play is optimal.

I didn't want to say that, but I agree that I didn't explain myself well. I was trying to say that I think that doncic is: a) a 15ish best offensive player ever b) imho the best halfcourt on ball creator ever
Knowing how bad his lack of an off ball game is (lebron gets criticized for holding the ball too much, but he has a wonderful off-ball game being an amazing cuttter, roller, alley oop catcher and also being able to take deep position in the post), all things considered, where would you rank in a list of best halcourt offensive players ever? Not just on ball, in general

Somewhere around 14-20.

Here are names I prefer to Luka:

Curry
Magic
Bird
LeBron
Nash
CP3
Jokic
Harden
Jordan
Durant
Barkley
Dirk
Kareem
Shaq
Kobe
Wade
Leonard
Oscar

Colbinii wrote:Somewhere around 14-20.

Here are names I prefer to Luka:

Curry
Magic
Bird
LeBron
Nash
CP3
Jokic
Harden
Jordan
Durant
Barkley
Dirk
Kareem
Shaq
Kobe
Wade
Leonard
Oscar

What about Hakeem, T-Mac, and Jerry West?

Ein Sof wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Somewhere around 14-20.

Here are names I prefer to Luka:

Curry
Magic
Bird
LeBron
Nash
CP3
Jokic
Harden
Jordan
Durant
Barkley
Dirk
Kareem
Shaq
Kobe
Wade
Leonard
Oscar

What about Hakeem, T-Mac, and Jerry West?

Hakeem [and the likes of KG/Wilt/Duncan/Malone/Malone] could have some argument, but I prefer Luka's overall offensive package.

McGrady is difficult to assess as is West [certainly see the arguments for them as players].

Ray Allen and Reggie Miller are also two guys who I briefly thought about.

Gibson22 wrote:

Ein Sof wrote:The OP is weird because it seems to assume that "heliocentric" play is optimal.

I didn't want to say that, but I agree that I didn't explain myself well. I was trying to say that I think that doncic is: a) a 15ish best offensive player ever b) imho the best halfcourt on ball creator ever
Knowing how bad his lack of an off ball game is (lebron gets criticized for holding the ball too much, but he has a wonderful off-ball game being an amazing cuttter, roller, alley oop catcher and also being able to take deep position in the post), all things considered, where would you rank in a list of best halcourt offensive players ever? Not just on ball, in general

If u think he’s the best halfcourt on ball creator ever then 15th is a bit low lol

Imo there’s a big gap between his offensive ability and impact

Ability I could see him top 10 or even better, I think in terms of his raw skillset he should be a tier 1 ATG guy, impact isn’t quite there up to that level

Gibson22 wrote:

Ein Sof wrote:The OP is weird because it seems to assume that "heliocentric" play is optimal.

I didn't want to say that, but I agree that I didn't explain myself well. I was trying to say that I think that doncic is: a) a 15ish best offensive player ever b) imho the best halfcourt on ball creator ever
Knowing how bad his lack of an off ball game is (lebron gets criticized for holding the ball too much, but he has a wonderful off-ball game being an amazing cuttter, roller, alley oop catcher and also being able to take deep position in the post), all things considered, where would you rank in a list of best halcourt offensive players ever? Not just on ball, in general

What makes Luka better in the half-court than peak Harden?

Colbinii wrote:

Ein Sof wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Somewhere around 14-20.

Here are names I prefer to Luka:

Curry
Magic
Bird
LeBron
Nash
CP3
Jokic
Harden
Jordan
Durant
Barkley
Dirk
Kareem
Shaq
Kobe
Wade
Leonard
Oscar

What about Hakeem, T-Mac, and Jerry West?

Hakeem [and the likes of KG/Wilt/Duncan/Malone/Malone] could have some argument, but I prefer Luka's overall offensive package.

McGrady is difficult to assess as is West [certainly see the arguments for them as players].

Ray Allen and Reggie Miller are also two guys who I briefly thought about.

2003 McGrady has the highest OBPM in history. (excluding 2016 Curry)

Colbinii wrote:Somewhere around 14-20.

Here are names I prefer to Luka:

Curry
Magic
Bird
LeBron
Nash
CP3
Jokic
Harden
Jordan
Durant
Barkley
Dirk
Kareem
Shaq
Kobe
Wade
Leonard
Oscar

nitpicking here, Barkley and some of CP3/Nash's values are going to be lowered by "halfcourt" constraint.

Only 11 players have ever averaged 40+ pts per 100 possessions in a single season. Only 4 of these players averaged 10 assists per 100p in the same season. Luka is averaging 39.7p/11.5a for career even counting his rookie season. His playoffs per 100 are 44.2/10.7a. If we are strictly talking about best halfcourt offensive players, that's essentially removing his weakness in defense, transition offense and fast breaks. I don't think you can have more than 10.

dygaction wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Somewhere around 14-20.

Here are names I prefer to Luka:

Curry
Magic
Bird
LeBron
Nash
CP3
Jokic
Harden
Jordan
Durant
Barkley
Dirk
Kareem
Shaq
Kobe
Wade
Leonard
Oscar

nitpicking here, Barkley and some of CP3/Nash's values are going to be lowered by "halfcourt" constraint.

Only 11 players have ever averaged 40+ pts per 100 possessions in a single season. Only 4 of these players averaged 10 assists per 100p in the same season. Luka is averaging 39.7p/11.5a for career even counting his rookie season. His playoffs per 100 are 44.2/10.7a. If we are strictly talking about best halfcourt offensive players, that's essentially removing his weakness in defense, transition offense and fast breaks. I don't think you can have more than 10.

Barkley's 76ers team were slow teams with just about every season below league average in pace. Offensive Rebounding is actually more valuable with less possessions in a game, which makes offensive rebounding more valuable in both slower games and more importantly, in half-court sets.

Chris Paul has, historically, played on slow teams. Not sure why he is mentioned as something about fast break affecting his offensive efficiency. In fact, one of the main criticisms of CP3 is he is too in control [ie prevents his own team from running].

As for Nash, significantly better passer and shooter. I'm not big on scoring volume as a barometer for an offensive player [there are diminishing returns far greater than off-ball value and on-ball passing].

Colbinii wrote:

dygaction wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Somewhere around 14-20.

Here are names I prefer to Luka:

Curry
Magic
Bird
LeBron
Nash
CP3
Jokic
Harden
Jordan
Durant
Barkley
Dirk
Kareem
Shaq
Kobe
Wade
Leonard
Oscar

nitpicking here, Barkley and some of CP3/Nash's values are going to be lowered by "halfcourt" constraint.

Only 11 players have ever averaged 40+ pts per 100 possessions in a single season. Only 4 of these players averaged 10 assists per 100p in the same season. Luka is averaging 39.7p/11.5a for career even counting his rookie season. His playoffs per 100 are 44.2/10.7a. If we are strictly talking about best halfcourt offensive players, that's essentially removing his weakness in defense, transition offense and fast breaks. I don't think you can have more than 10.

Barkley's 76ers team were slow teams with just about every season below league average in pace. Offensive Rebounding is actually more valuable with less possessions in a game, which makes offensive rebounding more valuable in both slower games and more importantly, in half-court sets.

Chris Paul has, historically, played on slow teams. Not sure why he is mentioned as something about fast break affecting his offensive efficiency. In fact, one of the main criticisms of CP3 is he is too in control [ie prevents his own team from running].

As for Nash, significantly better passer and shooter. I'm not big on scoring volume as a barometer for an offensive player [there are diminishing returns far greater than off-ball value and on-ball passing].

True but you are comparing Barkley's below league average in pace to Luka's league's slowest pace (30th last season and 29 this)...CP3 has always led average or slightly above average pace when he was the player. Taking away Nash's run and gun play, he is still great but his value would take a huge discount.

Colbinii wrote:

Gibson22 wrote:

Ein Sof wrote:The OP is weird because it seems to assume that "heliocentric" play is optimal.

I didn't want to say that, but I agree that I didn't explain myself well. I was trying to say that I think that doncic is: a) a 15ish best offensive player ever b) imho the best halfcourt on ball creator ever
Knowing how bad his lack of an off ball game is (lebron gets criticized for holding the ball too much, but he has a wonderful off-ball game being an amazing cuttter, roller, alley oop catcher and also being able to take deep position in the post), all things considered, where would you rank in a list of best halcourt offensive players ever? Not just on ball, in general

What makes Luka better in the half-court than peak Harden?

Not choking in the playoffs lmao

I'd put it as closer to the bottom of tier 2 players. So somewhere in the top 20-25 but a couple of things:
1. As a scorer he's not all that efficient. Good and able to carry a large load but not super efficient.
2. In terms of leading an offense he has pretty mixed results. He had that one year in 2020 where the Mavs led the league in ORtg and this year they are 5th but the other years aren't near as good.
3. I give him some credit for being hard to stop when its crunch time as in he can get shots for himself with his combo of size and all around skills.

Having said that, if he moves forward as a 30-33ppg guy and can improve his shot selection as he gets more talent around him I could see him becoming a tier 1/top 10 guy in a few years.

Ein Sof wrote:

Colbinii wrote:
Hakeem [and the likes of KG/Wilt/Duncan/Malone/Malone] could have some argument, but I prefer Luka's overall offensive package.

McGrady is difficult to assess as is West [certainly see the arguments for them as players].

Ray Allen and Reggie Miller are also two guys who I briefly thought about.

2003 McGrady has the highest OBPM in history. (excluding 2016 Curry)

Is this a peaks thread though or more of a prime one? I take it to mean more prime and Tmac's 03 year is such an outlier I wouldn't put him very high on this list.

Top 5 ever

He has to be among the absolute best I’ve ever seen. Midrange, high post, low post, passing out of double teams, step back, 3 point range, finishing at the basket, using his weight/ body to his advantage, playing angles and keep the defender on his back.

If he just cuts down on erratic passes / threes and gets a legit #2 for the entire season, it’s over for the league.

Top 3 ever. Luka is unstoppable, and that's an understatement

Ein Sof wrote:The OP is weird because it seems to assume that "heliocentric" play is optimal.

Well history would certainly support the OP there.