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Name the savant skills of ATG’s that are analogous to this kid’s ability? Those elements of their game that can’t be taught. It’s just part of them, and always was.

It’s an ATG’s natural talents list.

This isn’t about learned skills honed through repetition. This 5 yr old didn’t learn that.

My affinity for Bird is known. He sees the game at a level like this kid hears music. The same for Magic offensively.

I think Russell’s ability to tap into his teammates and opponents mentally and understand them reaches this level.

Jordan’s intrinsic killer instinct.

Duncan has some of this in his game but it’s harder to pin down IMO.

You can't really tell if someone is a savant at 5 years old. It's entirely possible if not likely that even if that person keeps training their entire life they won't stand out much from others who started at a later age.

Progression isn't that linear. "Wow, they're THAT good at basketball at 7, imagine when he is 21!". We see this with kids in sports.


Almost every basketball player has some type of natural talent that sticks out to varying degrees. The players you're talking about have good vision and spatial awareness (Bird, Jokic, Russell) - that isn't really instinctively a more natural talent than Curry being able to shoot 3s in his sleep. It does make the game look effortless to them though.

HeartBreakKid wrote:You can't really tell if someone is a savant at 5 years old. It's entirely possible if not likely that even if that person keeps training their entire life they won't stand out much from others who started at a later age.

Progression isn't that linear. "Wow, they're THAT good at basketball at 7, imagine when he is 21!". We see this with kids in sports.


Almost every basketball player has some type of natural talent that sticks out to varying degrees. The players you're talking about have good vision and spatial awareness (Bird, Jokic, Russell) - that isn't really instinctively a more natural talent than Curry being able to shoot 3s in his sleep. It does make the game look effortless to them though.

I get your approach to the concept, and it can level out. But, this thread is not about progression. It’s about natural talent. The 21 yr old that gets to be as good as the 5 yr old progressed. The 5 yr old didn’t have too. It was always there.

Basketball is far, far more nuanced and crystallized (from an intelligence / efficacy angle) than these macro-level thoughts, especially savant syndrome - which is impossible for an outsider to quantify and common across almost any pantheon caliber player

Ricky Rubio is the under-16 GOAT

Jaivl wrote:Ricky Rubio is the under-16 GOAT

I remember him playing for Joventut Badalona in the Euroleague at the age of 15.

SNPA wrote:

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Name the savant skills of ATG’s that are analogous to this kid’s ability? Those elements of their game that can’t be taught.

Barring a specific disability/deficit, everything the kid is exhibiting can be taught. "What can you do at 5" is near-universally, not a great predictor of success, because at the top level, it's no longer about a musican's "bag", as it is about how they deploy what they use. Natural ability makes the journey faster, but at least in music/arts, it isn't what differentiates someone's ceiling.

Unlike basketball where height alone serves as a mass filter, music, at least in theory, open to everyone. Closest to such a filter for music is probably pitch/range though that can obviously expand with proper training/practice. And even if you have a "bad" voice, you can always establish the framework where "bad" becomes good:

Outliers: The Story of Success by Malcolm Gladwell is a good read about a similar topic.

SNPA wrote:

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Name the savant skills of ATG’s that are analogous to this kid’s ability? Those elements of their game that can’t be taught. It’s just part of them, and always was.

It’s an ATG’s natural talents list.

This isn’t about learned skills honed through repetition. This 5 yr old didn’t learn that.

My affinity for Bird is known. He sees the game at a level like this kid hears music. The same for Magic offensively.

I think Russell’s ability to tap into his teammates and opponents mentally and understand them reaches this level.

Jordan’s intrinsic killer instinct.

Duncan has some of this in his game but it’s harder to pin down IMO.

This young man is absolutely incredible ty for sharing this.

Colbinii wrote:Outliers: The Story of Success by Malcolm Gladwell is a good read about a similar topic.

Any bulletpoints?

I think most of the people you consider rare talents have the ability to consistently work hard be their rarest talent. Like there are guys out there in the world as athletic as Lebron. Or at least functionally close enough. Josh Smith from the late 2000s Hawks comes to mind as someone who a lot of people basically considered close to what LeBron would've been if he had no bag or work ethic lol.

There's probably a few guys out there with Curry's natural hand-eye coordination, that we may not be able to see as easily. But none of those approximates had anywhere near the natural capacity and voraciousness for the hard work it takes to be successful that came *naturally* to these guys from a young age. Those guys are giga-stars because they've had a natural talent for "the grind"

That's really what sets these guys apart from their contemporaries to me. They were trying hard, playing hard, practicing hard, for YEARS. All throughout their childhood, and that crystallized. They all outlasted guys who started hotter than them that others might consider more "naturally talented" but never actually had an affinity for hard work.

The older I get the more I realize that true greatness lies in consistency, and the people who "make it" are the ones who persevere and are able to maximize their time. Kyle Korver said in a recent interview with JJ Reddick that the one thing he considers "superhuman" about LeBron is how he was able to mentally recover and be ready to come in to work everyday.

During The Last Dance documentary, iirc Phil talked about how MJ had the most remarkable ability to remain engaged in the present at all times. These guys naturally live for the grind, and I don't know if that can truly be taught the way mostly everything else can.

Heej wrote:I think most of the people you consider rare talents have the ability to consistently work hard be their rarest talent. Like there are guys out there in the world as athletic as Lebron. Or at least functionally close enough. Josh Smith from the late 2000s Hawks comes to mind as someone who a lot of people basically considered close to what LeBron would've been if he had no bag or work ethic lol.

There's probably a few guys out there with Curry's natural hand-eye coordination, that we may not be able to see as easily. But none of those approximates had anywhere near the natural capacity and voraciousness for the hard work it takes to be successful that came *naturally* to these guys from a young age. Those guys are giga-stars because they've had a natural talent for "the grind"

That's really what sets these guys apart from their contemporaries to me. They were trying hard, playing hard, practicing hard, for YEARS. All throughout their childhood, and that crystallized. They all outlasted guys who started hotter than them that others might consider more "naturally talented" but never actually had an affinity for hard work.

The older I get the more I realize that true greatness lies in consistency, and the people who "make it" are the ones who persevere and are able to maximize their time. Kyle Korver said in a recent interview with JJ Reddick that the one thing he considers "superhuman" about LeBron is how he was able to mentally recover and be ready to come in to work everyday.

During The Last Dance documentary, iirc Phil talked about how MJ had the most remarkable ability to remain engaged in the present at all times. These guys naturally live for the grind, and I don't know if that can truly be taught the way mostly everything else can.

If you haven’t seen it yet, I highly recommend the Bill Russell documentary on Netflix. Very similar rhetoric regarding his unwavering commitment towards being his unique self and playing to his calling card.

SNPA wrote:

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Name the savant skills of ATG’s that are analogous to this kid’s ability? Those elements of their game that can’t be taught. It’s just part of them, and always was.

It’s an ATG’s natural talents list.

This isn’t about learned skills honed through repetition. This 5 yr old didn’t learn that.

My affinity for Bird is known. He sees the game at a level like this kid hears music. The same for Magic offensively.

I think Russell’s ability to tap into his teammates and opponents mentally and understand them reaches this level.

Jordan’s intrinsic killer instinct.

Duncan has some of this in his game but it’s harder to pin down IMO.

Julian newman

rk2023 wrote:

Heej wrote:I think most of the people you consider rare talents have the ability to consistently work hard be their rarest talent. Like there are guys out there in the world as athletic as Lebron. Or at least functionally close enough. Josh Smith from the late 2000s Hawks comes to mind as someone who a lot of people basically considered close to what LeBron would've been if he had no bag or work ethic lol.

There's probably a few guys out there with Curry's natural hand-eye coordination, that we may not be able to see as easily. But none of those approximates had anywhere near the natural capacity and voraciousness for the hard work it takes to be successful that came *naturally* to these guys from a young age. Those guys are giga-stars because they've had a natural talent for "the grind"

That's really what sets these guys apart from their contemporaries to me. They were trying hard, playing hard, practicing hard, for YEARS. All throughout their childhood, and that crystallized. They all outlasted guys who started hotter than them that others might consider more "naturally talented" but never actually had an affinity for hard work.

The older I get the more I realize that true greatness lies in consistency, and the people who "make it" are the ones who persevere and are able to maximize their time. Kyle Korver said in a recent interview with JJ Reddick that the one thing he considers "superhuman" about LeBron is how he was able to mentally recover and be ready to come in to work everyday.

During The Last Dance documentary, iirc Phil talked about how MJ had the most remarkable ability to remain engaged in the present at all times. These guys naturally live for the grind, and I don't know if that can truly be taught the way mostly everything else can.

If you haven’t seen it yet, I highly recommend the Bill Russell documentary on Netflix. Very similar rhetoric regarding his unwavering commitment towards being his unique self and playing to his calling card.

Oh snap good call I'll watch that tonight

wallflower wrote:

SNPA wrote:

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?cxt=HHwWgIC23bWTo6ItAAAA

Name the savant skills of ATG’s that are analogous to this kid’s ability? Those elements of their game that can’t be taught. It’s just part of them, and always was.

It’s an ATG’s natural talents list.

This isn’t about learned skills honed through repetition. This 5 yr old didn’t learn that.

My affinity for Bird is known. He sees the game at a level like this kid hears music. The same for Magic offensively.

I think Russell’s ability to tap into his teammates and opponents mentally and understand them reaches this level.

Jordan’s intrinsic killer instinct.

Duncan has some of this in his game but it’s harder to pin down IMO.

Julian newman

Lmao he's ballin out as a content creator now. Good for him

Heej wrote:

rk2023 wrote:

Heej wrote:I think most of the people you consider rare talents have the ability to consistently work hard be their rarest talent. Like there are guys out there in the world as athletic as Lebron. Or at least functionally close enough. Josh Smith from the late 2000s Hawks comes to mind as someone who a lot of people basically considered close to what LeBron would've been if he had no bag or work ethic lol.

There's probably a few guys out there with Curry's natural hand-eye coordination, that we may not be able to see as easily. But none of those approximates had anywhere near the natural capacity and voraciousness for the hard work it takes to be successful that came *naturally* to these guys from a young age. Those guys are giga-stars because they've had a natural talent for "the grind"

That's really what sets these guys apart from their contemporaries to me. They were trying hard, playing hard, practicing hard, for YEARS. All throughout their childhood, and that crystallized. They all outlasted guys who started hotter than them that others might consider more "naturally talented" but never actually had an affinity for hard work.

The older I get the more I realize that true greatness lies in consistency, and the people who "make it" are the ones who persevere and are able to maximize their time. Kyle Korver said in a recent interview with JJ Reddick that the one thing he considers "superhuman" about LeBron is how he was able to mentally recover and be ready to come in to work everyday.

During The Last Dance documentary, iirc Phil talked about how MJ had the most remarkable ability to remain engaged in the present at all times. These guys naturally live for the grind, and I don't know if that can truly be taught the way mostly everything else can.

If you haven’t seen it yet, I highly recommend the Bill Russell documentary on Netflix. Very similar rhetoric regarding his unwavering commitment towards being his unique self and playing to his calling card.

Oh snap good call I'll watch that tonight

The first episode is a great watch when it comes to his basketball foundation and I also found it to address the mental aspect of basketball well without coming off as hagiography. The guy won and prevented two players I hold very highly (in West and Baylor) from many titles, and I still consider him a role model and basketball hero with all he embodied.

There's no such thing as natural basketball talent. Basketball is primarily predicated on one's physical skill. You literally can't become that good at it unless your body is physically developed enough. This is not comparable to something like music or chess where the only impediment is mental aptitude. It's possible for a 5-year-old to play Mozart; it wasn't possible for LeBron to be very good at basketball at 5 years old.

Jaivl wrote:Ricky Rubio is the under-16 GOAT

Cam Boozer is better.

LukaTheGOAT wrote:

Jaivl wrote:Ricky Rubio is the under-16 GOAT

Cam Boozer is better.

Looked him up cause I thought there was a joke I was missing but apparently you were serious (hence wrong)?

A high-minute pro at 15 versus... "the son of".

OhayoKD wrote:

SNPA wrote:

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Name the savant skills of ATG’s that are analogous to this kid’s ability? Those elements of their game that can’t be taught.

Barring a specific disability/deficit, everything the kid is exhibiting can be taught. "What can you do at 5" is near-universally, not a great predictor of success, because at the top level, it's no longer about a musican's "bag", as it is about how they deploy what they use. Natural ability makes the journey faster, but at least in music/arts, it isn't what differentiates someone's ceiling.

Unlike basketball where height alone serves as a mass filter, music, at least in theory, open to everyone. Closest to such a filter for music is probably pitch/range though that can obviously expand with proper training/practice. And even if you have a "bad" voice, you can always establish the framework where "bad" becomes good:

Watch on YouTube

I agree with the first part completely, but isn't knowing what to deploy when part of natural talent? There's no amount of music training or practice that would allow me to compose like Mozart or play a solo like Hendrix, you can mimic genius of course, and copy someone's style but you're going to hit a wall at some point. I may be misinterpreting what you're saying, but natural ability/talent is definitely a differentiating factor when it comes to almost anything artistic, and I don't think it can be organically copied.