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Where would Peak Stockton rank overall in todays league?

With most of the other top players playing 60 games or much less, in the RS he'd be top 5 value to his team...unless his anti-vaccine stance actually makes his ironman status rust out.

40% 3 Point Shooter, 13 Assists, Spamming Pick and Rolls, High paced fast break oriented game, no handchecking, no illegal defense which allows him free reign to roam for steals. Today's game is tailor made for Stockton's game. He is in the top 5 in today's game.

colts18 wrote:40% 3 Point Shooter, 13 Assists, Spamming Pick and Rolls, High paced fast break oriented game, no handchecking, no illegal defense which allows him free reign to roam for steals. Today's game is tailor made for Stockton's game. He is in the top 5 in today's game.

Jokic
Giannis
Steph
Luka
Tatum
Embiid

If you were offered your choice of any of the above to start your 2023 team, which two would you not take over Stockton?

Probably inside top 10, but definitely not top 5.,

Unless we invent a completely new version of Stockton, I think there would definitely be fifteen players I would trust over him in the postseason. Peak John Stockton averaged around 14.5 shots per 75 possessions in the postseason, and I do not see him as enough of a defensive maestro to make up for that on the other end. For a frame of reference, that usually would not place him inside the top thirty of his own era. Even if I look strictly at 1989, when for three games he did push himself more as a scorer and was a legitimate second option rather than his usual third option, that is still only top twenty. And looking at the scoring mentality of a lot of players today, again, unless we are inventing an entirely new version of Stockton, there is no real reason for me to treat him as someone as interested in scoring as much as most of the players with a higher shot rate than that.

Peak Stockton is an efficient third option (outside his peak, that postseason efficiency drops). He was and would be one of the league’s best passers (likely its highest volume passer), and one of the league’s better defensive guards (but not so good that he would be likely to ever win all-defensive spots over Jrue Holiday or Marcus Smart). To me, that is not top fifteen postseason value. Best case, you put him as the point guard for the Cavaliers or Timberwolves or 2017-22 Jazz or 2021-23 Suns and have a bunch of people swear that he is the engine making it all work. That maybe cracks the top fifteen, but unless you think 2020/21 Chris Paul was a definite no contest top ten player, that top fifteen marker to me seems like the ceiling.

AEnigma wrote:Unless we invent a completely new version of Stockton, I think there would definitely be fifteen players I would trust over him in the postseason. Peak John Stockton averaged around 14.5 shots per 75 possessions in the postseason, and I do not see him as enough of a defensive maestro to make up for that on the other end. For a frame of reference, that usually would not place him inside the top thirty of his own era. Even if I look strictly at 1989, when for three games he did push himself more as a scorer and was a legitimate second option rather than his usual third option, that is still only top twenty. And looking at the scoring mentality of a lot of players today, again, unless we are inventing an entirely new version of Stockton, there is no real reason for me to treat him as someone as interested in scoring as much as most of the players with a higher shot rate than that.

Peak Stockton is an efficient third option (outside his peak, that postseason efficiency drops). He was and would be one of the league’s best passers (likely its highest volume passer), and one of the league’s better defensive guards (but not so good that he would be likely to ever win all-defensive spots over Jrue Holiday or Marcus Smart). To me, that is not top fifteen postseason value. Best case, you put him as the point guard for the Cavaliers or Timberwolves or 2017-22 Jazz or 2021-23 Suns and have a bunch of people swear that he is the engine making it all work. That maybe cracks the top fifteen, but unless you think 2020/21 Chris Paul was a definite no contest top ten player, that top fifteen marker to me seems like the ceiling.

Who are your rough top 15 players this season?

First player in a thread like this I'm comfortable voting outside the top 15. Very limited handles, even compared to guards of the time, didn't really try to pry and ask questions of defenses even with an absence of hedges making that alot simpler. Not an impressive athelete, and frankly for all the hype around his assists-per-game, I find his passing throughly unimpressive. Would also say he is one of the best examples of "colinearity" and contrary to rep, stockton was more of a playoff dropper than Malone.

I think NBA-Storyteller sums up the issue with stockton getting hyped based on his apg pretty well:
https://youtu.be/LsmVMIKWOSM?t=21
the rest of the video is an entertaining meme, but the malone analysis is on-point.

I voted Top 20.

As a Point Guard, clearly behind Curry, Lillard, Luka and Harden.

Stockton would struggle with his scoring at a high volume to truly be effective as a lead ball handler in todays NBA.

70sFan wrote:

AEnigma wrote:Unless we invent a completely new version of Stockton, I think there would definitely be fifteen players I would trust over him in the postseason. Peak John Stockton averaged around 14.5 shots per 75 possessions in the postseason, and I do not see him as enough of a defensive maestro to make up for that on the other end. For a frame of reference, that usually would not place him inside the top thirty of his own era. Even if I look strictly at 1989, when for three games he did push himself more as a scorer and was a legitimate second option rather than his usual third option, that is still only top twenty. And looking at the scoring mentality of a lot of players today, again, unless we are inventing an entirely new version of Stockton, there is no real reason for me to treat him as someone as interested in scoring as much as most of the players with a higher shot rate than that.

Peak Stockton is an efficient third option (outside his peak, that postseason efficiency drops). He was and would be one of the league’s best passers (likely its highest volume passer), and one of the league’s better defensive guards (but not so good that he would be likely to ever win all-defensive spots over Jrue Holiday or Marcus Smart). To me, that is not top fifteen postseason value. Best case, you put him as the point guard for the Cavaliers or Timberwolves or 2017-22 Jazz or 2021-23 Suns and have a bunch of people swear that he is the engine making it all work. That maybe cracks the top fifteen, but unless you think 2020/21 Chris Paul was a definite no contest top ten player, that top fifteen marker to me seems like the ceiling.

Who are your rough top 15 players this season?

With the acknowledgment that postseasons matter…

Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Lebron, Davis, Steph, Kawhi, Tatum, Luka, Durant, Butler, and Lillard are all players I would much rather build around. Then you have a more nebulous group of players including Paul George, healthy Zion (myth), Harden, Shai, Mitchell, Booker, Haliburton, Morant, Garland, Sabonis, Siakam, Jrue… Jrue is the most similar player so far in role to Stockton, and I would comfortably prefer him. Every other guard (plus Sabonis) is only iffy because of defence and fluctuating offensive value (the latter of which also affects George and Siakam). However, playoff Stockton also sees his offensive value fluctuate too, and again, his defence is not actually good enough in the modern league to make up for that (as opposed to what we see with Jrue). Stockton is not and has never been a serious peak player for me.

Top 5 and even top 10 is crazy talk with the depth today......he was not dynamic or skilled enough guard off the dribble for that. Great team and scheme defender but the impactful defensive Pgs today have to be able to lockdown in man like Jrue, Caruso, Smart to make a mark on defense as a Pg with how rules favor offense and neuter defense now. Cp3 was as smart and good in scheme as Stockton and hes been a liability on defense last 2 seasons now specially playoffs.

Top 20 maybe if we're penalizing injuries to other players. Theres strong case likes of Mark Price and Terry Porter are better in todays game than Stockton whod be prime Mike Conley level at his best. Hed be the best game manager today but too limited offensively and defensively to be anywhere near top 10

colts18 wrote:40% 3 Point Shooter, 13 Assists, Spamming Pick and Rolls, High paced fast break oriented game, no handchecking, no illegal defense which allows him free reign to roam for steals. Today's game is tailor made for Stockton's game. He is in the top 5 in today's game.

The spacing and offensive rules would make practically anyone in past eras with some skill better now okay. But he still wasnt dynamic on ball or off dribble to be much better on offense. Players with skillsets of Mark Price and Terry Porter would see much bigger jumps in todays game.

You dont mention defense.....his defense would be much worse today. He couldnt defend man well at all in an era with worse shooting talent for guards. He got annihilated by Mitch Richmond, Gary Payton and Terry Porter in playoff series.....Whats gonna happen against Steph, Kyrie, Luka, Dame, Mitch, Kyrie, Book, Sga, Fox, Jrue, Hali etc when they hunt him in pick and rolls with no handchecking? Hed get abused and be a liability in playoff defense. Stockton being top 5 today is ABSURD

GSP wrote:

colts18 wrote:40% 3 Point Shooter, 13 Assists, Spamming Pick and Rolls, High paced fast break oriented game, no handchecking, no illegal defense which allows him free reign to roam for steals. Today's game is tailor made for Stockton's game. He is in the top 5 in today's game.

The spacing and offensive rules would make practically anyone in past eras with some skill better now okay. But he still wasnt dynamic on ball or off dribble to be much better on offense. Players with skillsets of Mark Price and Terry Porter would see much bigger jumps in todays game.

You dont mention defense.....his defense would be much worse today. He couldnt defend man well at all in an era with worse shooting talent for guards. He got annihilated by Mitch Richmond, Gary Payton and Terry Porter in playoff series.....Whats gonna happen against Steph, Kyrie, Luka, Dame, Mitch, Kyrie, Book, Sga, Fox, Jrue, Hali etc when they hunt him in pick and rolls with no handchecking? Hed get abused and be a liability in playoff defense. Stockton being top 5 today is ABSURD

35 year old Chris Paul finished with a #5 MVP finish just 2 seasons ago. You can't tell me that version of Chris Paul was more athletic than Prime John Stockton. CP3 is the player whose style of play most closely resembles Stockton's.

GSP wrote:

colts18 wrote:40% 3 Point Shooter, 13 Assists, Spamming Pick and Rolls, High paced fast break oriented game, no handchecking, no illegal defense which allows him free reign to roam for steals. Today's game is tailor made for Stockton's game. He is in the top 5 in today's game.

The spacing and offensive rules would make practically anyone in past eras with some skill better now okay. But he still wasnt dynamic on ball or off dribble to be much better on offense. Players with skillsets of Mark Price and Terry Porter would see much bigger jumps in todays game.

You dont mention defense.....his defense would be much worse today. He couldnt defend man well at all in an era with worse shooting talent for guards. He got annihilated by Mitch Richmond, Gary Payton and Terry Porter in playoff series.....Whats gonna happen against Steph, Kyrie, Luka, Dame, Mitch, Kyrie, Book, Sga, Fox, Jrue, Hali etc when they hunt him in pick and rolls with no handchecking? Hed get abused and be a liability in playoff defense. Stockton being top 5 today is ABSURD

And you can add Kenny Smith to the list of guys that torched Stockton in the playoffs. And he did it in b2b playoff years vs Stockton in 94 and 95. A big reason why Utah lost those series.

And Kenny wasn't even remotely close to being an all star calibre PG in that era either. Stockton couldn't even contain Smith who wasn't really any good at creating his own shot (something ALL the scoring PGs in todays nba have no issues with) and was basically a spot up shooter those years.

colts18 wrote:

GSP wrote:

colts18 wrote:40% 3 Point Shooter, 13 Assists, Spamming Pick and Rolls, High paced fast break oriented game, no handchecking, no illegal defense which allows him free reign to roam for steals. Today's game is tailor made for Stockton's game. He is in the top 5 in today's game.

The spacing and offensive rules would make practically anyone in past eras with some skill better now okay. But he still wasnt dynamic on ball or off dribble to be much better on offense. Players with skillsets of Mark Price and Terry Porter would see much bigger jumps in todays game.

You dont mention defense.....his defense would be much worse today. He couldnt defend man well at all in an era with worse shooting talent for guards. He got annihilated by Mitch Richmond, Gary Payton and Terry Porter in playoff series.....Whats gonna happen against Steph, Kyrie, Luka, Dame, Mitch, Kyrie, Book, Sga, Fox, Jrue, Hali etc when they hunt him in pick and rolls with no handchecking? Hed get abused and be a liability in playoff defense. Stockton being top 5 today is ABSURD

35 year old Chris Paul finished with a #5 MVP finish just 2 seasons ago. You can't tell me that version of Chris Paul was more athletic than Prime John Stockton. CP3 is the player whose style of play most closely resembles Stockton's.

He had no business in such convos however, closer to a top 20 player. And I trust Paul in general to have games where he ramps up his scoring

colts18 wrote:

GSP wrote:

colts18 wrote:40% 3 Point Shooter, 13 Assists, Spamming Pick and Rolls, High paced fast break oriented game, no handchecking, no illegal defense which allows him free reign to roam for steals. Today's game is tailor made for Stockton's game. He is in the top 5 in today's game.

The spacing and offensive rules would make practically anyone in past eras with some skill better now okay. But he still wasnt dynamic on ball or off dribble to be much better on offense. Players with skillsets of Mark Price and Terry Porter would see much bigger jumps in todays game.

You dont mention defense.....his defense would be much worse today. He couldnt defend man well at all in an era with worse shooting talent for guards. He got annihilated by Mitch Richmond, Gary Payton and Terry Porter in playoff series.....Whats gonna happen against Steph, Kyrie, Luka, Dame, Mitch, Kyrie, Book, Sga, Fox, Jrue, Hali etc when they hunt him in pick and rolls with no handchecking? Hed get abused and be a liability in playoff defense. Stockton being top 5 today is ABSURD

35 year old Chris Paul finished with a #5 MVP finish just 2 seasons ago. You can't tell me that version of Chris Paul was more athletic than Prime John Stockton. CP3 is the player whose style of play most closely resembles Stockton's.

Mvp finishes arent player rankings.....Cp3 had a strong narrative for Suns turnaround in 21. Randle was 8th in Mvp voting that season and he was nowhere close to a top 10 player. Devin Booker was 4th in Mvp voting last year........he wasnt close to a top 5 player either.

Top 10-15 seems about right. Stockton was very good, but he did have his weaknesses. Being gun-shy about popping his shot would limit how much value he'd get out of the guard-permissive environment of the contemporary league.

Good in the passing lanes. Definitely not set up to be a high-impact point-of-attack defender in today's game. But man, we'd see the efficacy of his passing game today. Everything about how he played does translate forward rather nicely. Sloan was ahead of his time in terms of offensive strategy. As a #2, Stockton would be pretty epic.

Guards with size and other big ball-handlers would abuse the crap out of him, though, that's for sure. And as others have noted, he wasn't particularly good against athletic guards. Or mid-90s Kenny Smith, for that matter. Still, Stockton was a savant with various forms of the pick-and-roll and an extremely adept passer. With tempo rising again, similar to what it was over Stockton's first decade in the league, he'd be in position to look pretty good on offense and to make a nuisance of himself with his reflexes and anticipation in the passing lanes.

I don't rate pass first point guards like John Stockton at all.

Maybe you should learn as Chris Paul has had success with a similar style today.

Chris Paul has always had a scoring mentality. Haliburton is the best approximation, but a lot of people would balk at labeling him a top twenty player yet, and he is a substantially more dynamic shooter than Stockton (albeit also substantially worse on defence even with a stylistic penalty for Stockton).

Maybe you profile him as a median point between Jrue and Haliburton… but again, neither of them get treated as top fifteen players, so where does that leave us.