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Where would peak Dwight rank today overall?

His fit on offense is a little weird, but he’s still a force defensively, should be battling Gobert for best defender. Top 10 definitely, arguably top 5 defending on how you weight the injuries of others.

Top 5 most likely. Best rebounder and defender in Nba easily. Would still dominate inside and in pick and roll. I dont have big questions about offense when we have starting centers like Jakob Poeltl avging 13/9 on .664ts they not letting him get post touches today tho

GSP wrote:Top 5 most likely. Best rebounder and defender in Nba easily. Would still dominate inside and in pick and roll. I dont have big questions about offense when we have starting centers like Jakob Poeltl avging 13/9 on .664ts they not letting him get post touches today tho

He had a few years where he wasn't desperately trying to be the next shaq/Hakeem. That version destroys this league.

Chronz wrote:

GSP wrote:Top 5 most likely. Best rebounder and defender in Nba easily. Would still dominate inside and in pick and roll. I dont have big questions about offense when we have starting centers like Jakob Poeltl avging 13/9 on .664ts they not letting him get post touches today tho

He had a few years where he wasn't desperately trying to be the next shaq/Hakeem. That version destroys this league.

Dwight's one of those guys who just needed to stop listening to people other than his coach so, so badly. He was just not made for the iso game, but he was so good when he was a garbage man and a PnR monster.

Well outside top 5. Giannis, Embiid, Jokic, Doncic, Durant, Curry all well ahead with significantly better offense. Nothing Dwight did ever suggested he could defend the pick/roll or the perimeter in an elite fashion anyway which is more important in todays league.

rim213221 wrote:Well outside top 5. Giannis, Embiid, Jokic, Doncic, Durant, Curry all well ahead with significantly better offense. Nothing Dwight did ever suggested he could defend the pick/roll or the perimeter in an elite fashion anyway which is more important in todays league.

Umm…Dwight literally was an elite pick and roll defender in his prime. Did you even watch him at all? I’m not trying to come off like a smart ass, but this comment makes me think you didn’t.

No-more-rings wrote:

rim213221 wrote:Well outside top 5. Giannis, Embiid, Jokic, Doncic, Durant, Curry all well ahead with significantly better offense. Nothing Dwight did ever suggested he could defend the pick/roll or the perimeter in an elite fashion anyway which is more important in todays league.

Umm…Dwight literally was an elite pick and roll defender in his prime. Did you even watch him at all? I’m not trying to come off like a smart ass, but this comment makes me think you didn’t.

I think his comment was more of the fact that Howard still played PnR defense and had the mindset like a traditional Center despite having the body and athleticism to do more. Like the many videos of prime healthy athletic All-NBA 1st team DeAndre Jordan refusing to even get to the level of the screen on 3pt shooters while post-prime Brook Lopez can still move his hips and get to screens against Stephen Curry.

Statlanta wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

rim213221 wrote:Well outside top 5. Giannis, Embiid, Jokic, Doncic, Durant, Curry all well ahead with significantly better offense. Nothing Dwight did ever suggested he could defend the pick/roll or the perimeter in an elite fashion anyway which is more important in todays league.

Umm…Dwight literally was an elite pick and roll defender in his prime. Did you even watch him at all? I’m not trying to come off like a smart ass, but this comment makes me think you didn’t.

I think his comment was more of the fact that Howard still played PnR defense and had the mindset like a traditional Center despite having the body and athleticism to do more. Like the many videos of prime healthy athletic All-NBA 1st team DeAndre Jordan refusing to even get to the level of the screen on 3pt shooters while post-prime Brook Lopez can still move his hips and get to screens against Stephen Curry.

I mean I don’t fully know how to respond to this other than Dwight defended pick and roll at an elite level plus could switch adequately onto the perimeter too. Do you guys even remember the athletic speciman he was back then? He’d absolutely be in convo for DPOY today if he played. He was a great defender even in 2020 in the limited minutes he had. This is all a bunch of nonsense.

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tsherkin wrote:

Chronz wrote:

GSP wrote:Top 5 most likely. Best rebounder and defender in Nba easily. Would still dominate inside and in pick and roll. I dont have big questions about offense when we have starting centers like Jakob Poeltl avging 13/9 on .664ts they not letting him get post touches today tho

He had a few years where he wasn't desperately trying to be the next shaq/Hakeem. That version destroys this league.

Dwight's one of those guys who just needed to stop listening to people other than his coach so, so badly. He was just not made for the iso game, but he was so good when he was a garbage man and a PnR monster.

Limited handles and playmaking is probably a big issue today though. Also, if Gobert is any indication, his defense may not translate so well in the playoffs.

Think the bottom half of the top-ten is his ceiling. Possibly lower depending on defensive translation(Gobert covers significantly more ground)

Gobert’s “issue” in the playoffs is that he cannot adequately punish teams skewing toward offence. Dwight absolutely could. Similar reason Embiiid is a better playoff performer despite being several shades below Gobert defensively.

OhayoKD wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

Chronz wrote:He had a few years where he wasn't desperately trying to be the next shaq/Hakeem. That version destroys this league.

Dwight's one of those guys who just needed to stop listening to people other than his coach so, so badly. He was just not made for the iso game, but he was so good when he was a garbage man and a PnR monster.

Limited handles and playmaking is probably a big issue today though. Also, if Gobert is any indication, his defense may not translate so well in the playoffs.

Think the bottom half of the top-ten is his ceiling. Possibly lower depending on defensive translation(Gobert covers significantly more ground)

He’s so much more mobile than Gobert though.

AEnigma wrote:Gobert’s “issue” in the playoffs is that he cannot adequately punish teams skewing toward offence. Dwight absolutely could. Similar reason Embiiid is a better playoff performer despite being several shades below Gobert defensively.

Yeah, teams can cheat against Gobert and play all 5 offense because he can't punish them on the other end of the court. It doesn't help that Utah perimeter defense was, well... far from perfect.

Im Your Father wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

tsherkin wrote:
Dwight's one of those guys who just needed to stop listening to people other than his coach so, so badly. He was just not made for the iso game, but he was so good when he was a garbage man and a PnR monster.

Limited handles and playmaking is probably a big issue today though. Also, if Gobert is any indication, his defense may not translate so well in the playoffs.

Think the bottom half of the top-ten is his ceiling. Possibly lower depending on defensive translation(Gobert covers significantly more ground)

He’s so much more mobile than Gobert though.

Even if he can physically replicate say...Gobert's defense vs the rockets in 2019, I very much doubt he has the positional awareness. Let's not pretend dwight didn't frequently struggle in a much less spaced out era when he lift the rim.

70sFan wrote:

AEnigma wrote:Gobert’s “issue” in the playoffs is that he cannot adequately punish teams skewing toward offence. Dwight absolutely could. Similar reason Embiiid is a better playoff performer despite being several shades below Gobert defensively.

Yeah, teams can cheat against Gobert and play all 5 offense because he can't punish them on the other end of the court. It doesn't help that Utah perimeter defense was, well... far from perfect.

Eh, Embid's a much more dynamic offensive piece. Dwight is better on offense than Gobert(which is why I put his ceiling as top 10 as opposed to top 15 or top 20), but realistically he's like the fourth best defender in the league(and that's contingent on davis not being healthy).

Let's recall how people were talking about Gobert only 6 years ago before league-wide offense, spacing, and shooting proficiency exploded a second time in 2019:

Doctor MJ wrote:

jpengland wrote:His progression is scary.

His potential was obvious from FIBA/Pre-Season and the glimpses last year. But I don't think any of us could have predicted QUITE how good he would become this season. He still has much room to develop too.

He's already the best rim protector in the league, by a distance, IMO. He's also very active getting in passing lanes and runs the court exceptionally fluidly. He's always going to be a 10 - 15 PPG scorer just off garbage buckets and put backs given how active he is on the offensive boards. Throw in the fact that he actually is mobile, has soft hands and rolls very well to basket and I see no reason why he won't be an 18 - 20ppg guy long term.

We could be looking at a handful of 20/13/3/3.5/1.5 seasons out of him at 60% FG and the best rim protection in the league.

He's potential perennial all NBA IMO. If I am Utah I probably wouldn't trade him for anyone but LeBron or Durant, possibly Davis.

I'd say this is the order of excitement I'm starting to have for him too. I wouldn't put him #4 on a trade value list yet, but I could see him getting there quite soon.

Also, while to me Davis is clearly #1 on such a list, and while Davis is a guy I've been championing from early on, I have to say:

Robert now seems like the best candidate to be the nouveau Bill Russell I was hoping Davis would be, and I'm a bit frustrated that Davis is not. To be perfectly honest, Gobert seems like he may just plain be the best defensive prospect we've seen in my memory - and that's just exciting - but I am frustrated that Davis seems like he's letting his defense suffer a bit in favor of his offense. While Davis clearly has unreal talent on both ends of the floor, I maintain that for basically any big man with an offensive game less than Shaq (which is, y'know, all of them), if you can be optimal on defense, that's the best way to have max impact.

Doctor MJ wrote:

Joao Saraiva wrote:It's important to note though: Gobert can really move. I really don't know if Mark Eaton would be able to thrive in today's game, but certainly there's room for an insanely long guy who moves with fluidity and seems to have great instincts.

Additionally I think the real point here is not that the MVPs of defense have outright changed positions, but rather than there's just a change in emphasis that has meant that it's truly possible for a great defensive wing to match great defensive bigs. However, I think we're also still waiting to see what the new "perfect storm" defender looks like, the guy who has the edge bigs have with much of the strengths that are helping the wings.

I got so excited about Anthony Davis because I saw that ability in him. Oddly, as he's not looking like the guy who will very shortly be the best player in the world, he's disappointed to a degree on defense. Maybe if Thibs comes to NO Davis will re-emerge as the archetypical defender for the new era, but at this point Gobert seems like the top candidate.

When someone like Gobert(with both the physical and mental gifts to bear) goes from shutting down one of the most spaced offenses ever to being borderline unplayable in a couple of years(coinciding with a second big offensive/shooting boom post-2019), that poses a pretty big question mark for Dwight who doesn't really stack up in terms of offensive skill-set to any of 2023s premier two-way bigs.

Dwight doesn't have a strong post-game. His "range" makes Giannis look like Steph, and he wasn't a good passer or ball-handler, even in a very limited role.

Maybe he can bully smaller-lineups enough for to still clear defensive "specialists"(though even someone like draymond brings phenomenal passing to the table), but top 5 is a tough sell.

AEnigma wrote:Gobert’s “issue” in the playoffs is that he cannot adequately punish teams skewing toward offence. Dwight absolutely could. Similar reason Embiiid is a better playoff performer despite being several shades below Gobert defensively.

I wouldn't say Embiid is several shades worse defensively... I would actually argue he has been a better post season defender than Gobert straight up

GeorgeMarcus wrote:

AEnigma wrote:Gobert’s “issue” in the playoffs is that he cannot adequately punish teams skewing toward offence. Dwight absolutely could. Similar reason Embiiid is a better playoff performer despite being several shades below Gobert defensively.

I wouldn't say Embiid is several shades worse defensively... I would actually argue he has been a better post season defender than Gobert straight up

And what does he actually do better in the postseason? He is less mobile, worse as a rim protector, worse on the perimetre, worse against pnrs… Put Embiid in Gobert’s place and the team would likely be better overall, but certainly not because Embiid better covers defensively poor teammates.

70sFan wrote:

AEnigma wrote:Gobert’s “issue” in the playoffs is that he cannot adequately punish teams skewing toward offence. Dwight absolutely could. Similar reason Embiiid is a better playoff performer despite being several shades below Gobert defensively.

Yeah, teams can cheat against Gobert and play all 5 offense because he can't punish them on the other end of the court. It doesn't help that Utah perimeter defense was, well... far from perfect.

If he has an adequate PG I think Gobert actually could punish small teams decently well, but hasn't really got a crack at it in the playoffs yet.

The 3 teams to go/be small against Gobert in the playoffs - the '17 Warriors (which, yeah, what did we expect there?), the '21 Clippers (Conley out), and the '22 Mavs (Utah imploding).

Howard would certainly be better at it.

AEnigma wrote:

GeorgeMarcus wrote:

AEnigma wrote:Gobert’s “issue” in the playoffs is that he cannot adequately punish teams skewing toward offence. Dwight absolutely could. Similar reason Embiiid is a better playoff performer despite being several shades below Gobert defensively.

I wouldn't say Embiid is several shades worse defensively... I would actually argue he has been a better post season defender than Gobert straight up

And what does he actually do better in the postseason? He is less mobile, worse as a rim protector, worse on the perimetre, worse against pnrs… Put Embiid in Gobert’s place and the team would likely be better overall, but certainly not because Embiid better covers defensively poor teammates.

Honestly I think your assessment is completely off base. Embiid is a DPOY caliber player and has been throughout his career. Let's look at their team's respective defensive ratings every year they've been in the playoffs:

Embiid Playoff Def Rating:
21-22: 108.6 (-4.7)
20-21: 105.8 (-11.3)
19-20: 120.9
18-19: 93.0 (-21.3)
17-18: 98.6 (-9.5)

Gobert Playoff Def Rating:
21-22: 113.3
20-21: 117.1
19-20: 119.4 (-1.5)
18-19: 114.3
17-18: 106.1

Playoff defenses anchored by Embiid have absolutely dominated playoff defenses anchored by Gobert. The only season in which he didn't have a comfortable advantage was when he was forced to play in the clunkiest lineup of all time and share the front court with Horford (4 game sample). This isn't a "well he had Simmons" situation either because defense was far superior with Embiid than Ben. I think you're seriously underrating Embiid's mobility. Plus he's much stronger than Gobert.

GeorgeMarcus wrote:

AEnigma wrote:

GeorgeMarcus wrote:I wouldn't say Embiid is several shades worse defensively... I would actually argue he has been a better post season defender than Gobert straight up

And what does he actually do better in the postseason? He is less mobile, worse as a rim protector, worse on the perimetre, worse against pnrs… Put Embiid in Gobert’s place and the team would likely be better overall, but certainly not because Embiid better covers defensively poor teammates.

Honestly I think your assessment is completely off base. Embiid is a DPOY caliber player and has been throughout his career. Let's look at their team's respective defensive ratings every year they've been in the playoffs:

Embiid Playoff Def Rating:
21-22: 108.6 (-4.7)
20-21: 105.8 (-11.3)
19-20: 120.9
18-19: 93.0 (-21.3)
17-18: 98.6 (-9.5)

Gobert Playoff Def Rating:
21-22: 113.3
20-21: 117.1
19-20: 119.4 (-1.5)
18-19: 114.3
17-18: 106.1

Playoff defenses anchored by Embiid have absolutely dominated playoff defenses anchored by Gobert. The only season in which he didn't have a comfortable advantage was when he was forced to play in the clunkiest lineup of all time and share the front court with Horford (4 game sample). This isn't a "well he had Simmons" situation either because defense was far superior with Embiid than Ben. I think you're seriously underrating Embiid's mobility. Plus he's much stronger than Gobert.

Interesting how you did not actually answer my question outside of saying Embiid is stronger. We for the most part not talking about guarding Shaq or Gilmore here though, and the Jazz’s playoff defences were hardly undone by Gobert being insufficiently sturdy.