RealGM

If we go by straight ORtg the 2023 Sacramento Kings are no. 1 at 119.2, and they're decidedly.... not the GOAT offense in my view.

Anyone have access to a stat finder that will list them relative to the league average?

Per thinkingbasketball.net:

1. 2004 Mavericks: +9.2
2. 2005 Suns: +8.4
3. 2016 Warriors: +8.1
4. 2002 Mavericks: +7.7
5. 2010 Suns: +7.7
6. 1997 Bulls: +7.7
7. 1998 Jazz: +7.6
8. 2007 Suns: +7.5
9. 1996 Bulls: +7.5
10. 2004 Kings: +7.4
11. 1982 Nuggets: +7.4
12. 1988 Celtics: +7.3
13. 1992 Bulls: +7.3
14. 1987 Lakers: +7.3
15. 2003 Mavericks: +7.1
16. 1971 Bucks: +7.1
17. 1995 Magic: +6.9
18. 1997 Jazz: +6.9
19. 2015 Clippers: +6.8
20. 1998 Lakers: +6.8

In comparison:

2023 Kings: +4.6

2023 SAC +4.6

2016 GSW +8.1
2010 PHO +7.7
2007 PHO +7.4
2005 PHO +8.4
2004 DAL +9.2
2004 SAC +7.4
2003 DAL +7.1
2002 DAl +7.7
1998 UTA +7.7
1997 CHI +7.7
1996 CHI +7.6
1992 CHI +7.3
1988 BOS +7.4
1987 LAL +7.3
1982 DEN +7.4

70sFan wrote:Per thinkingbasketball.net:

Could you write the best defences? I want to see if one of my theories will be confirmed

SpreeS wrote:

70sFan wrote:Per thinkingbasketball.net:

Could you write the best defences? I want to see if one of my theories will be confirmed

What theory?

1. 2004 Spurs: -8.8
2. 1964 Celtics: -8.7
3. 2008 Celtics: -8.6
4. 1993 Knicks: -8.3
5. 1994 Knicks: -8.1
6. 2020 Bucks: -7.7
7. 2004 Pistons: -7.5
8. 2016 Spurs: -7.4
9. 2014 Pacers: -7.3
10. 2005 Spurs: -7.3
11. 1999 Spurs: -7.2
12. 1965 Celtics: -7.2
13. 2011 Bulls: -6.9
14. 2011 Celtics: -6.9
15. 2007 Bulls: -6.7
16. 2006 Spurs: -6.6
17. 2007 Spurs: -6.5
18. 2009 Magic: -6.4
19. 2012 Celtics: -6.4
20. 1989 Jazz/2012 Bulls/1975 Bullets/1963 Celtics: -6.3

Huh interesting that both the top offense and defense are from the 04 season. I though it might've been the stricter handchecking rules but that was the season after this. Seeing as it's era-relative the answer probably lies in the make-up of the league at the time. Just looking at net ratings it does seem like there's a relatively large amount of bad teams and a small amount of teams noticeably above average, it does make sense that this would elevate the relative ratings of the best teams.

Another thing that comes to mind is playstyle diversity. Right now most teams are focused on fast-paced offense and bend-not-break type defense, which makes it harder for any one team to really stand out as either an offensive or defensive juggernaut compared to the rest of the league. In 04 that wasn't the case at all with teams having much stronger identities to their playstyles. Kind of mixed on this tbh. On one hand it's pretty cool to have teams leaning into offense, defense or a balance to differentiate from the rest and champion their basketball ideology, especially compared to the copy/paste festival we have going on in the modern league in terms of playstyle. On the other hand those slow, methodical teams are pretty unwatchable most of the time and because of that I'd say the late 90s-early 00s period is quite easily my least favorite period of the modern era.

I dont think listing relative offensive ratings is the best way to Guage the best offenses ever.

Offenses today are the best offenses ever--they shoot the most 3's, they operate with the most spacing, the teams contain the most and best shooters and the strategies are optimized to be as efficient as possible.

Meanwhile, defenses understand all this. They understand how to defend offenses, where to defend and what shots to allow yet offenses still are at an all-time high.

For those interested I have a list of year by year leaders with relative ratings for All-Season data (RS + PS) as one on of the columns where that data was available. The first sheet is actually focused on the top player by ORtg & DRtg going back to '96-97, and that's not mentioned so far, so let me package some stuff here to go along with the actual spreadsheet.

Among players who have led the league in ORtg while playing >50% of their team's minutes (so only the top guy each season), here are the ones with the biggest rORtg (based on bkref):

1. Steve Nash (Phx) '04-05 +13.9
2. Steph Curry (GS) '16-17 +13.2
3. Chris Paul (LAC) '14-15 +11.4
4. Steve Nash (Phx) '06-07 +11.3
(tie) Steph Curry (GS) '15-16 +11.3
(tie) Nikola Jokic (Den) '22-23 +11.3 (so far)
7. Dirk Nowitzki (Dal) '03-04 +11.0
8. James Harden (OKC) '11-12 +10.8
9. Steve Nash (Phx) '09-10 +10.6
10. Kawhi Leonard (LAC) '20-21 +10.5

For rDTG:

1. David Robinson (SAS) '98-99 -11.5
2. Jaren Jackson Sr. (SAS) '97-98 -10.4
3. Tim Duncan (SAS) '03-04 -10.1
4. Kendrick Perkins (BOS) '07-08 -9.9
(tie) Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL) '19-20 -9.9
6. Alonzo Mourning (MIA) '96-97 -9.4
7. David Robinson (SAS) '00-01 -8.6
(tie) Kawhi Leonard (SAS) '15-16 -8.6
9. Kevin Garnett (BOS) '10-11 -8.5
10. Bruce Bowen (SAS) '06-07 -8.4

And the leaders in terms of leading in the most years by these standards:

ORtg
1. Steve Nash (PHX) 7 times
2. John Stockton (UTA) 3
(tie) Dirk Nowitzki (DAL) 3
(tie) Chris Paul (LAC) 3
5. Steph Curry (GS) 2
(tie) Kevin Durant (GS) 2

DRtg
1. Tim Duncan (SAS) 3 times
2. David Robinson (SAS) 2
(tie) Kevin Garnett (BOS) 2
(tie) Draymond Green (GS) 2
(tie) Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL) 2

Colbinii wrote:I dont think listing relative offensive ratings is the best way to Guage the best offenses ever.

Offenses today are the best offenses ever--they shoot the most 3's, they operate with the most spacing, the teams contain the most and best shooters and the strategies are optimized to be as efficient as possible.

Meanwhile, defenses understand all this. They understand how to defend offenses, where to defend and what shots to allow yet offenses still are at an all-time high.

Very true.

Doctor MJ wrote:For rDTG:

1. David Robinson (SAS) '98-99 -11.5
2. Jaren Jackson Sr. (SAS) '97-98 -10.4
3. Tim Duncan (SAS) '03-04 -10.1
4. Kendrick Perkins (BOS) '07-08 -9.9
(tie) Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL) '19-20 -9.9
6. Alonzo Mourning (MIA) '96-97 -9.4
7. David Robinson (SAS) '00-01 -8.6
(tie) Kawhi Leonard (SAS) '15-16 -8.6
9. Kevin Garnett (BOS) '10-11 -8.5
10. Bruce Bowen (SAS) '06-07 -8.4

5 different Spurs players showing up 6 times is really interesting.

The 2015 Clippers being there is amazing with the obstacle of Deandre Jordan's FT shooting. Teams would hack him all the time and slow down their offense. They were the worst FT shooting team every year.

70sFan wrote:1. 2004 Spurs: -8.8
2. 1964 Celtics: -8.7
3. 2008 Celtics: -8.6
4. 1993 Knicks: -8.3
5. 1994 Knicks: -8.1
6. 2020 Bucks: -7.7
7. 2004 Pistons: -7.5
8. 2016 Spurs: -7.4
9. 2014 Pacers: -7.3
10. 2005 Spurs: -7.3
11. 1999 Spurs: -7.2
12. 1965 Celtics: -7.2
13. 2011 Bulls: -6.9
14. 2011 Celtics: -6.9
15. 2007 Bulls: -6.7
16. 2006 Spurs: -6.6
17. 2007 Spurs: -6.5
18. 2009 Magic: -6.4
19. 2012 Celtics: -6.4
20. 1989 Jazz/2012 Bulls/1975 Bullets/1963 Celtics: -6.3

Is there an explanation for the difference in the 60s Celtics numbers or is it part of Ben's paid patreon content?

LA Bird wrote:

70sFan wrote:1. 2004 Spurs: -8.8
2. 1964 Celtics: -8.7
3. 2008 Celtics: -8.6
4. 1993 Knicks: -8.3
5. 1994 Knicks: -8.1
6. 2020 Bucks: -7.7
7. 2004 Pistons: -7.5
8. 2016 Spurs: -7.4
9. 2014 Pacers: -7.3
10. 2005 Spurs: -7.3
11. 1999 Spurs: -7.2
12. 1965 Celtics: -7.2
13. 2011 Bulls: -6.9
14. 2011 Celtics: -6.9
15. 2007 Bulls: -6.7
16. 2006 Spurs: -6.6
17. 2007 Spurs: -6.5
18. 2009 Magic: -6.4
19. 2012 Celtics: -6.4
20. 1989 Jazz/2012 Bulls/1975 Bullets/1963 Celtics: -6.3

Is there an explanation for the difference in the 60s Celtics numbers or is it part of Ben's paid patreon content?

Updated pace estimations from Ben. Celtics gets better offensively and worse defensively, though they still are absurdly dominant on defensive end and they postseason numbers are still untouchable.

70sFan wrote:Updated pace estimations from Ben. Celtics gets better offensively and worse defensively, though they still are absurdly dominant on defensive end and they postseason numbers are still untouchable.

Can you post the postseason numbers too?

LA Bird wrote:

70sFan wrote:Updated pace estimations from Ben. Celtics gets better offensively and worse defensively, though they still are absurdly dominant on defensive end and they postseason numbers are still untouchable.

Can you post the postseason numbers too?

Only for Celtics or for the best teams ever?

70sFan wrote:

LA Bird wrote:

70sFan wrote:Updated pace estimations from Ben. Celtics gets better offensively and worse defensively, though they still are absurdly dominant on defensive end and they postseason numbers are still untouchable.

Can you post the postseason numbers too?

Only for Celtics or for the best teams ever?

Best postseason defenses (and offenses) ever if possible.

LA Bird wrote:

70sFan wrote:

LA Bird wrote:Can you post the postseason numbers too?

Only for Celtics or for the best teams ever?

Best postseason defenses (and offenses) ever if possible.

I bolded runs that have 10 or more games played.

Offense:

1. 1956 Lakers: +20.1
2. 2005 Suns: +16.2
3. 2017 Cavaliers: +13.2
4. 2003 Blazers: +12.9
5. 2010 Suns: +12.6
6. 2001 Lakers: +12.2
7. 1992 Suns: +11.8
8. 1995 Suns: +11.5
9. 1994 Warriors: +11.4
10. 2016 Cavaliers: +11.4
11. 2017 Warriors: +11.4
12. 1993 Pacers: +11.2
13. 1955 Celtics: +11.1
14. 1990 Celtics: +11.1
15. 1991 Bulls: +11.0
16. 2020 Jazz: +10.5
17. 1987 Lakers: +10.5
18. 1976 76ers: +10.5
19. 2021 Blazers: +10.4
20. 2022 Pelicans: +10.3

Offense (min. 10 games):

1. 2005 Suns: +16.2
2. 2017 Cavaliers: +13.2
3. 2010 Suns: +12.6
4. 2001 Lakers: +12.2
5. 1995 Suns: +11.5
6. 2016 Cavaliers: +11.4
7. 2017 Warriors: +11.4
8. 1991 Bulls: +11.0
9. 1987 Lakers: +10.5
10. 2009 Nuggets: +10.2
11. 2014 Clippers: +10.1
12. 2021 Jazz: +10.1
13. 2003 Mavericks: +10.0
14. 1985 Lakers: +9.8
15. 2014 Heat: +9.7
16. 1998 Lakers: +9.5
17. 2003 Kings: +9.5
18. 1996 Magic: +9.3
19. 1997 Rockets: +9.3
20. 2012 Thunder: +9.2

Defense:

1. 2000 Spurs: -13.2
2. 1964 Celtics: -12.4
3. 2013 Celtics: -12.2
4. 2004 Pistons: -11.8
5. 1996 Knicks: -10.9
6. 2022 Bucks: -10.8
7. 2000 Heat: -9.5
8. 1998 Rockets: -9.5
9. 1971 Bucks: -9.5
10. 1996 Bulls: -9.4
11. 2002 Jazz: -9.2
12. 2019 Bucks: -9.2
13. 1972 Bucks: -9.0
14. 1998 Spurs: -8.9
15. 2016 Spurs: -8.9
16. 1990 Pistons: -8.8
17. 1988 Pistons: -8.7
18. 2003 Spurs: -8.7
19. 2017 Bucks: -8.6
20. 2019 Raptors: -8.6

Defense (min. 10 games):

1. 1964 Celtics: -12.4
2. 2004 Pistons: -11.8
3. 2004 Pistons: -11.8
4. 2022 Bucks: -10.8
5. 2000 Heat: -9.5
6. 1971 Bucks: -9.5
7. 1996 Bulls: -9.4
8. 2019 Bucks: -9.2
9. 1972 Bucks: -9.0
10. 2016 Spurs: -8.9
11. 1990 Pistons: -8.8
12. 1988 Pistons: -8.7
13. 2003 Spurs: -8.7
14. 2019 Raptors: -8.6
15. 2004 Pacers: -8.4
16. 1997 Heat: -8.3
17. 1996 Jazz: -8.3
18. 2021 Bucks: -8.3
19. 2007 Cavaliers: -8.2
20. 2004 Nets: -8.2

Another feather in the hat for Mikans GOAT case. +20.1 on one knee, ridiculous.

Just a heads up...

70sFan wrote:Defense (min. 10 games):

1. 1964 Celtics: -12.4
2. 2004 Pistons: -11.8
3. 2004 Pistons: -11.8
4. 2022 Bucks: -10.8
5. 2000 Heat: -9.5

So good they made it twice?

eminence wrote:Another feather in the hat for Mikans GOAT case. +20.1 on one knee, ridiculous.

Otoh, that's a three game sample. One where prior to it they beat the Hawks, in St Louis to gain ... not a series counting win but just HCA, lose by 1, win by ... 50+?? ... lose by one and get knocked out.