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Posted: **Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:46 pm**

Do you think a decent case can be made to rank Dirk above Bird on the GOAT list?

Posted: **Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:47 pm**

Not one I would make, but I think he has an acceptable case, yes.

Posted: **Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:51 pm**

Yeah. Mavericks had a 7-year stretch of +4 or greater offenses with a variety of different casts, including a 3-year run of +7-+9 offenses. From 1999-2016, the Mavericks had one season where they weren't a + offensively [and in that year Dirk had an Offensive On/Off of +9.1].

The Celtics exceeded a +4 offense just 6 times in Bird's entire career, peaking at +7.4 with only one other season eclipsing a +5 offense.

Posted: **Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:03 pm**

Well his prime is at least 2 years longer to begin with and then he probably has 2-3 more years at all star level over him also. Its also not uncommon to see lists that only have them a few spots apart. As in Bird at 11-12 then Dirk at 14-16. So I don't see it as a big gulf between them. I think you could also argue that Dirk was overall the more consistent playoff performer and is more gifted in terms of a size/athleticism combo. So ya I think there's a case there. To me its mainly about the playmaking gap and Bird's intangibles, especially before about age 26. Bird came in mentally ready to lead a team to a title.

Posted: **Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:38 pm**

You'd have to put a very heavy emphasis on longevity. To me it's like putting Kobe over Mike.

Posted: **Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:39 pm**

Can but probably not a great one, even as a big Dirk fan.

Posted: **Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:07 pm**

Yeah, he has better longevity and is better overall scorer imo

Posted: **Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:11 pm**

Yes, but I wouldn't subscribe to such. 9-14 is my general tier for Bird, whereas Dirk is more like 13-20 (lower end of this range would be hard for me to see) - career wise.

Posted: **Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:32 pm**

Laimbeer wrote:You'd have to put a very heavy emphasis on longevity. To me it's like putting Kobe over Mike.

Thats weird.

Jordan RS: 116 VORP, 214 WS
Jordan PS: 25 VORP, 40 WS

Kobe RS: 80 VORP, 117 WS
Kobe PS: 16 VORP, 28 WS

Bird RS: 77 VORP, 144 WS
Bird PS: 15 VORP, 25 WS

Dirk RS: 86 VORP, 205 WS
Dirk PS: 12 VORP, 23 WS

I dont see a meaningful gap in longevity for Kobe over Jordan.

Posted: **Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:44 pm**

Jaivl wrote:Not one I would make, but I think he has an acceptable case, yes.

I agree with this assessment, it's something I've definitely pondered.

Longevity aside, there's the matter that Dirk played a more consistently efficiency volume scoring game, and while I do think this edge had quite a lot to do with playing in an era that new better what to do with a very tall guy who could should incredibly well, if we're just talking about what happened rather than talent, what happened is what happened.

I do really chafe though at the idea that idea that Bird's not-always-great efficiency indicates that he wasn't an incredible shooter. When a guy shoots free throws like Bird does, reliably wins the 3-point contest like he did, and doesn't rely on the greater primacy of others to get open shots, that IS the skillset. Skepticism based on specific TS% numbers makes sense when judging impact, but it's putting the cart before the horse when evaluating actual shooting ability.

And then of course there's the matter that in his prime, he was simply better than Dirk at literally every other part of the game because of his considerably higher reving motor, and along with his always-superior court awareness and mental quickness.

Someone picking Dirk over Bird doesn't bother me at all, but not recognizing what made Bird great in such unique ways is just a bummer.

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:33 am**

Dirk has the edge in longevity, he might have been a better scorer and there might be an argument about his undeniable great impact as an off-the-ball player making the game easy for his teammates.

Bird is the better all-around player by far, and making the game easy for his teammates was quite his own forte as well with his top-notch passing and superior awareness.

It's hard to compare those two as players giving that they played different roles, very different styles in very different eras. The only common trait is them being bigs shooting exceptionally well. Aside from the true players they were Dirk has nothing on Bird in terms of being a legend in NBA history. Yes, he might be the best foreign player ever (with guys like Giannis and Jokic gaining ground quite fast and collecting more accolades), but Bird was an outstanding symbol for the league for years (together with Magic) before Jordan became the new sheriff in town. While Dirk was a true star and very likeable, he never was the same superior poster boy above others like Bird was in his time (and even continues to be today to some degree).

So Dirk has a case but a small one, and you really need to ignore the reputation of those two players earned over the course of their respective careers.

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:58 am**

Masigond wrote:
It's hard to compare those two as players giving that they played different roles, very different styles in very different eras. The only common trait is them being bigs shooting exceptionally well. Aside from the true players they were Dirk has nothing on Bird in terms of being a legend in NBA history. Yes, he might be the best foreign player ever (with guys like Giannis and Jokic gaining ground quite fast and collecting more accolades), but Bird was an outstanding symbol for the league for years (together with Magic) before Jordan became the new sheriff in town. While Dirk was a true star and very likeable, he never was the same superior poster boy above others like Bird was in his time (and even continues to be today to some degree).

So Dirk has a case but a small one, and you really need to ignore the reputation of those two players earned over the course of their respective careers.

In some ways you make fair points relative to in era dominance though just being honest as someone who is pretty high on Bird his main competition from 84-86 was pretty damn weak. It was basically post prime Kareem/Moses/Dr. J and just entering prime Magic in terms of top guys compared to Dirk going against peak/prime Duncan/KG/Kobe/LeBron/Wade/Nash and others. Which is to say I don't think Bird stands out as much either if you put him into that group.

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:20 am**

I'm not the biggest frequenter of these boards, but I'm surprised at how pro-Dirk the response has been. I absolutely love Dirk, but to me the case to put him above Bird all time would be put to rest relatively quickly. Dirk certainly has the longevity, but that might be it. The two are equal as shooters and scorers in my book, and Bird is vastly superior as a defender and playmaker.

I always thought bird was a pretty consensus top 4-8 player all time with dirk more like top 15-20.

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Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:23 am**

Matt15 wrote:Do you think a decent case can be made to rank Dirk above Bird on the GOAT list?

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:56 am**

AleksandarN wrote:
Matt15 wrote:Do you think a decent case can be made to rank Dirk above Bird on the GOAT list?

No case.

Bird is a superior all around player.

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:46 am**

Cavsfansince84 wrote:In some ways you make fair points relative to in era dominance though just being honest as someone who is pretty high on Bird his main competition from 84-86 was pretty damn weak. It was basically post prime Kareem/Moses/Dr. J and just entering prime Magic in terms of top guys compared to Dirk going against peak/prime Duncan/KG/Kobe/LeBron/Wade/Nash and others. Which is to say I don't think Bird stands out as much either if you put him into that group.

Yes, you might be right that prime Dirk had more top echelon players in their respective primes as opponents while Bird's opponents of the mid-80s weren't just there yet or declining a bit as you said. But more important might be that Bird's Celtics as a team didn't have to go through such an opposition as Dirk with his Mavs during that 50 win streak. There were the declining Sixers in the mid-80s, the interesting Bucks (that surely didn't have the same talent as the Celtics) and Wilkins' Hawks, and that's about it in the Eastern Conference of that era as stronger teams like the Pistons and the Bulls came only years later. Still you can only beat the opponents you have, and Bird did that in those years. The turnaround of the Celtics in his rookie season with a title in his sophomore season combined with that stretch of the mid-80s had cemented Bird as one of the ATGs.

What impresses me most is that Dirk's Mavs were always among the contenders even though he did not have the superstar help like many other great players. Nash was a fringe All-Star, Finley was good, and then they were gone. Despite that the Mavs didn't budge (don't get me started on players like Jason Terry. A great player when his shot was falling, and an utterly average to bad player when it didn't as he was neither a great playmaker nor a defender who could help his team other than with his scoring). I won't question Duncan as he had shown in 2003 that he could carry a team without said superstar help (as many people tend to overvalue what kind of players Robinson, Parker and Ginobili were in that particular season). LeBron had some good carry jobs during his first stint with the Cavs, too. But overall Dirk's opponents had more help, and so he had a harder competition than Bird might have had (especially during said mid-80s).

But the reputations are out and many fans won't question them, and I think Bird was outstanding for long enough and such a special player that I tend to not question his success to much, either. In the comparison of this thread there is not enough for Dirk to really surpass Bird but it's quite a testament for his own greatness that the question if he has a case over Bird isn't totally absurd from the beginning.

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:06 am**

I think Dirk is a better scorer but everything else goes to Bird by a healthy amount.

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:37 am**

I think "greatness" has to be part of the equation. I know it's not clear, but Bird was SUCH an influence on the NBA and its growth. I loved Dirk's game and I always wanted him to win. Also, I couldn't stand Bird. But Bird is more of a legend than Dirk-that has to count for something

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:40 am**

pipfan wrote:I think "greatness" has to be part of the equation. I know it's not clear, but Bird was SUCH an influence on the NBA and its growth. I loved Dirk's game and I always wanted him to win. Also, I couldn't stand Bird. But Bird is more of a legend than Dirk-that has to count for something

Greatness is from a perspective. If you are from Europe do you really think Larry Bird is a greater influence than Dirk Nowitzki? You're thinking from an American marketing perspective, not actual influence.

Larry Bird is romanticized more and was higher rated than Dirk that is not the same thing as more influential. Dirk Nowitzki correlates with several huges shifts in how the NBA works today. He wasn't just a player who did cool stuff.

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:56 am**

HeartBreakKid wrote:
pipfan wrote:I think "greatness" has to be part of the equation. I know it's not clear, but Bird was SUCH an influence on the NBA and its growth. I loved Dirk's game and I always wanted him to win. Also, I couldn't stand Bird. But Bird is more of a legend than Dirk-that has to count for something

Greatness is from a perspective. If you are from Europe do you really think Larry Bird is a greater influence than Dirk Nowitzki?

He is...

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