RealGM

Team is so damn good that they don’t need Bird or Duncan. I could play myself 10 minutes a game against most teams and they still win and I suck. So lets stipulate that this super team will face another equally super team in the finals so you may need whichever of Bird or Duncan can help this team more.

All peaks.

Give me a team with shot blockers Mark Eaton, Dikembe and David Robison prebably getting some minutes at power forward.
I am adding all these shot blockers to not need Dunan’s shot blocking.

Then give me Curry, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, and Klay Thmposon.
I am adding all these shooters to not need Bird’s shooting.

Then give me Scttie Pippen, Gary Payton senior and Rot Artest.
That gives you a defensive point guard and 2 defensive small forwards. You can play Klay or Miller at small forward for more offense.

You get to pick the last man for that team and your choices are peak Duncan or or peak Bird.
Who do you pick Duncan or Bird?

I only take Duncan over Bird when I want Duncan to play like a defensive center. If I need shot blocking I take Duncan. If I don’t need shot blocking I take Bird.

But Realgm tends to have Duncan around 5 on their GOAT lists and Bird around 10. But Realgm cares about longevity and I care more about peaks. For this thread we are talking about peaks.

Bird was not a small forward and Duncan played more center than he played power forward. On most teams Duncan would be a center.
On defense Bird played a lot more power forward than small forward. Don’t be confused by McHale. McHale guarded Dominique Wilkins
.
On offense position barely matters as long as somebody can play the point guard role. If Bird had a better dribble he could play point guard but Bird’s dribble was not good enough for Bird to play point guard or to do what Doncic does.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Team is so damn good that they don’t need Bird or Duncan. I could play myself 10 minutes a game against most teams and they still win and I suck. So lets stipulate that this super team will face another equally super team in the finals so you may need whichever of Bird or Duncan can help this team more.

All peaks.

Give me a team with shot blockers Mark Eaton, Dikembe and David Robison prebably getting some minutes at power forward.
I am adding all these shot blockers to not need Dunan’s shot blocking.

Then give me Curry, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, and Klay Thmposon.
I am adding all these shooters to not need Bird’s shooting.

Then give me Scttie Pippen, Gary Payton senior and Rot Artest.
That gives you a defensive point guard and 2 defensive small forwards. You can play Klay or Miller at small forward for more offense.

You get to pick the last man for that team and your choices are peak Duncan or or peak Bird.
Who do you pick Duncan or Bird?

I only take Duncan over Bird when I want Duncan to play like a defensive center. If I need shot blocking I take Duncan. If I don’t need shot blocking I take Bird.

But Realgm tends to have Duncan around 5 on their GOAT lists and Bird around 10. But Realgm cares about longevity and I care more about peaks. For this thread we are talking about peaks.

Bird was not a small forward and Duncan played more center than he played power forward. On most teams Duncan would be a center.
On defense Bird played a lot more power forward than small forward. Don’t be confused by McHale. McHale guarded Dominique Wilkins
.
On offense position barely matters as long as somebody can play the point guard role. If Bird had a better dribble he could play point guard but Bird’s dribble was not good enough for Bird to play point guard or to do what Doncic does.

They would not win if u play 10 mins a game my guy lol

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Team is so damn good that they don’t need Bird or Duncan. I could play myself 10 minutes a game against most teams and they still win and I suck. So lets stipulate that this super team will face another equally super team in the finals so you may need whichever of Bird or Duncan can help this team more.

All peaks.

Give me a team with shot blockers Mark Eaton, Dikembe and David Robison prebably getting some minutes at power forward.
I am adding all these shot blockers to not need Dunan’s shot blocking.

Then give me Curry, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, and Klay Thmposon.
I am adding all these shooters to not need Bird’s shooting.

Then give me Scttie Pippen, Gary Payton senior and Rot Artest.
That gives you a defensive point guard and 2 defensive small forwards. You can play Klay or Miller at small forward for more offense.

You get to pick the last man for that team and your choices are peak Duncan or or peak Bird.
Who do you pick Duncan or Bird?

I only take Duncan over Bird when I want Duncan to play like a defensive center. If I need shot blocking I take Duncan. If I don’t need shot blocking I take Bird.

But Realgm tends to have Duncan around 5 on their GOAT lists and Bird around 10. But Realgm cares about longevity and I care more about peaks. For this thread we are talking about peaks.

Bird was not a small forward and Duncan played more center than he played power forward. On most teams Duncan would be a center.
On defense Bird played a lot more power forward than small forward. Don’t be confused by McHale. McHale guarded Dominique Wilkins
.
On offense position barely matters as long as somebody can play the point guard role. If Bird had a better dribble he could play point guard but Bird’s dribble was not good enough for Bird to play point guard or to do what Doncic does.

They would not win if u play 10 mins a game my guy lol

Put them against an average NBA team in the current league and I think they can withstand 10 minutes of me playing even though I am short, old, out of shape and can’t shoot. I had problems recognizing who were my teammates when I passed playing 4 on 4 playground ball but I think the uniforms would help with that. At my peak I could make anybody look slow as I blew past them going to my right but unfortunately I could not do anything good after I blew past my defender and I am old and slow now. I never came accross anybody as fast as peak me but I assume NBA point guards are faster than I was at my 18 year old peak. I wast faster than everybody at miles too not just sprints but I never ran track so I don’t know just how fast I really was. i sure as hell am not fast anymore.

I had a couple games where all my transition pull up free throw lane jumpers dropped making me unguardable because I was too fast for anybody. I was looking like playground Gus Williams. But those games were flukes because I did not normally shoot that well and I am now slow.

I would be barely more useful than a road cone now but I thing that team would beat an average NBA team even if they had to play 4 on 5 for 10 minutes per game.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:
But Realgm tends to have Duncan around 5 on their GOAT lists and Bird around 10. But Realgm cares about longevity and I care more about peaks. For this thread we are talking about peaks.

First of all, this board cares about longevity and peaks.

Secondly, Duncan’s peak is arguably higher than Bird’s (it is to me and it actually ranked one spot higher in the 2019 peaks project).

What's the point of this thread?

homecourtloss wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:
But Realgm tends to have Duncan around 5 on their GOAT lists and Bird around 10. But Realgm cares about longevity and I care more about peaks. For this thread we are talking about peaks.

First of all, this board cares about longevity and peaks.

Secondly, Duncan’s peak is arguably higher than Bird’s (it is to me and it actually ranked one spot higher in the 2019 peaks project).

I think if I have a good shot blocking center and a good back up shot blocking center then I would rather Bird than Duncan at power forward. Bird rebounded well enough and was a great team defender and was a good man to man defender of power forwards but a poor man to man defender against some small forwards. Bird did not have enough foot speed to guard some small forwards but I don’t think that Duncan could guard the small forwards that Bird could not guard. McHale who was slower than Duncan and Bird could guard small forwards that Bird could not guard using arm length but McHale’s arms might have been 6 inches longer than Duncan’s arms.

If you don’t need Duncan to be your shot blocking back up center as well as starting power forward then I think I go with Bird. Bird seems like no contest better for team offense than Duncan. Duncan’s defensive edge over Bird narrows if you don’t need Duncan to be your team’s main rim protector.

But peak offensive Bird is probably 1987 while peak defensive Bird is probably 1984.
We know Bird wins passing and Bird wins flor spacing creation.

Bird Career playoff numbers TS% 55% at 24 points per game.
Duncan career playoff numbers, TS% 55% at 20.6 points per game.

I will Ignore 2002 when Duncan scored 25 points a game in a shorter playoff season at a lower shooting percentage.
2003 seems like Duncan’s best playoff season 23 points a game. 2002 is the only year Duncan went higher than 24 points per playoff game. In his 2003 playoff season Duncan shot TS% 58%
Even young Duncanwas normally in the low 20s points per game but his shooting percentage was good.

Duncan’s last 5 years drag his career average center numbers down for both volume and percentage.

Bird shot 27.5 points per game at TS% 60.7% in 1984 in the playoffs in a long championship season. Bird was shooting less than 1 3 attempt per game in the 1984 playoffs.

Bird also had career number dragged down by his las 2 years but the Celtics did not go deep into the playoffs so Bird’s averages would not have as effected as Duncans.

Bird averaged 10 rebounds a block and 2 steals in the 1984 playoffs.at 38 minutes per game at age 27.

In the 2003 playoffs 26 year old Duncan playing 42.5 minutes a game averaged 15.4 rebounds, 3.3 blocks and 0.6 steals.and his career best assists at 5 something. Duncan was playing 21 minutes a game at center in the 2003 playoffs.

70sFan wrote:What's the point of this thread?

In my mind It is a spin off of another thread on the general board.
Just thinking about whether Duncan at 6 on the GOAT list and Bird at 9 on the GOAT list are right?
Who is the greatest power forward? I count Bird as a power forward because that is Bird’s natural position and the position he defended.
Duncan is the consensus greatest power forward but Duncan played a small majority of his minutes at center. Those big centers that started next to Duncan after Robinson left were not on the floor at crunch time. On most teams Duncan would have been a center but Pop thought Duncan playing power forward and not banging with the big boys kept Duncan fresher for playing center in the 4th quarter.

For me who I prefer at power forward between Bird and Duncan depends on who the centers are. Bird is not a rim protecting center and I value rim protecting centers. Duncan is a good rim protecting center. If my power forward must also play center then I prefer Duncan.
But If I have 48 minutes of good rim protecting centers then I think I prefer Bird as the power forward.

The team is constructed to minimize the need for Duncan’s rim protection and Bird’s outside shooting.
The team is a thought experiment about the value of Bird and Duncan and how the teammates might change the value of the 2 players.

The team as also constructed to make Bird and Duncan be power forwards.
I consider Duncan the more valuable player but not for this team. Is Duncan as valuable of a power forward as Duncan is valuable as a center? But if people think Duncan’s defense still outranks Bird’s offense even when Duncan is not needed as a rim protector I want to hear that. Extra rim protection from the power forward is still nice even if the center is a great rim protector but to me the 1st rim protector at center is a lot more important than the assistant 2nd rim protector at power forward. One rim protector is enough to bother little guys driving to the hoop.

Was twin towers Sampson and Hakeem so great? Were Robinson and Duncan 2 rim protectors so great? I loved that Duncan as the back up to Robinson was such a good rim protector but when Robinson was on the floor how much did Duncan’s extra Rim protection add?

Those big stiffs after Robison left lacked the mobility to be great rim protectors so Duncan was still needed as a rim protector.

I would love my Warriors to have a rim protector as the back up center behind Looney. I see the need for rim protection but Looney is a damn fine center even though he is not a shot blocker The third big on the current Warriors should really be a rim protector not JaMychal Green. But do I really need 2 rim protectors on the floor at the same time. Dawkkins, Caldwell Jones, Bobby Jones and Dr J was a nice group of rim protectors but was that over kill?

Does Duncan’s defense still trump Bird’s offense when a good defensive center is playing next to Duncan or Bird?

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote: Were Robinson and Duncan 2 rim protectors so great?

They beat everyone's ass really badly, so yeah. #1 seed, #1 SRS, #1 defense, lost 2 games in the post season.

Duncan and Robinson were at the polar opposite stages of their primes in 1999.

HeartBreakKid wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote: Were Robinson and Duncan 2 rim protectors so great?

They beat everyone's ass really badly, so yeah. #1 seed, #1 SRS, #1 defense, lost 2 games in the post season.

Duncan and Robinson were at the polar opposite stages of their primes in 1999.

Robinson was still very good in 2003.
Do you really need 2 shot blockers on the floor at the same time or is the 2nd shot blocker not as useful as the 1st shot blocker?
Current Warriors badly need a shot blocker but is a 2nd shot blocker on the floor anywhere near as important as the jump from no shot blockers on the floor to having 1 shot blocker on the floor?

If Duncan is the team’s only shot blocker then I need Duncan even if that means not having Bird. But if Duncan is going to be playing next to Dikembe do I really need Duncan’s shot blocking or should I give up Duncan’s defense for Bird’s offense when Dikembe is on the floor next to them?

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote: Were Robinson and Duncan 2 rim protectors so great?

They beat everyone's ass really badly, so yeah. #1 seed, #1 SRS, #1 defense, lost 2 games in the post season.

Duncan and Robinson were at the polar opposite stages of their primes in 1999.

Robinson was still very good in 2003.
Do you really need 2 shot blockers on the floor at the same time or is the 2nd shot blocker not as useful as the 1st shot blocker?
Current Warriors badly need a shot blocker but is a 2nd shot blocker on the floor anywhere near as important as the jump from no shot blockers on the floor to having 1 shot blocker on the floor?

If Duncan is the team’s only shot blocker then I need Duncan even if that means not having Bird. But if Duncan is going to be playing next to Dikembe do I really need Duncan’s shot blocking or should I give up Duncan’s defense for Bird’s offense when Dikembe is on the floor next to them?

They're not roleplayers, they don't just do one thing. You don't "need" anything if you have two superstars.

You're trying to argue that Duncan is more redundant basically. Do you need Duncan if you are next to Mutumbo - a top ten defender of all time? No you do not "need" him, but why are you talking like Mutumbos are in abundance. Do you need Larry Bird if you Vlade, Kevin Durant, Dirk Nowitzki, Nikola Jokic?

It's not that interesting of a thought exercise because you're over simplifying Tim Duncan to a rim protector and Larry Bird to a shooter.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote: Were Robinson and Duncan 2 rim protectors so great?

They beat everyone's ass really badly, so yeah. #1 seed, #1 SRS, #1 defense, lost 2 games in the post season.

Duncan and Robinson were at the polar opposite stages of their primes in 1999.

Robinson was still very good in 2003.
Do you really need 2 shot blockers on the floor at the same time or is the 2nd shot blocker not as useful as the 1st shot blocker?
Current Warriors badly need a shot blocker but is a 2nd shot blocker on the floor anywhere near as important as the jump from no shot blockers on the floor to having 1 shot blocker on the floor?

If Duncan is the team’s only shot blocker then I need Duncan even if that means not having Bird. But if Duncan is going to be playing next to Dikembe do I really need Duncan’s shot blocking or should I give up Duncan’s defense for Bird’s offense when Dikembe is on the floor next to them?

Problem here is peak Duncan is also a tremendous offensive player. Not as good as peak Bird but still excellent and offering a huge amount of additional value over Mutombo on that end.

The redundancy issue is double-sided. This team already has Steph Curry, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller and Klay Thompson. It's not clear that their need for additional offense is stronger than their need for additional defense, particularly when that additional defense comes from a great two-way player. Having Duncan at the 4 instead of Bird allows you to put more of the offensively talented guards on the floor because Duncan will be better able to mitigate their defensive vulnerabilities.

Specific to the roster you've provided, I'm taking Duncan without reservations. Let's review the roster:

Curry/Payton
Reggie/Ray/Klay
Pippen/Artest
???
Robinson/Deke/Eaton

(1) Eaton is only emergency depth. Without (perhaps multiple) injuries or major foul trouble Eaton should see 0.0 MPG. Basically we should proceed as if he's out of the picture.

(2) Duncan only played 63% of his career minutes at the 5 because he played 99% of his minutes after 2007 at the 5. During his prime (1999-2007) Duncan played 58% of his minutes at the 4. Prime Duncan could still comfortably play the 4 today as many 6'10+ players do (at least part time) including Giannis and Mobley and many others.

(3) Mutombo can only play the 5 and practically speaking the only minutes he would get are when Robinson needs a spell. If you also have Duncan, some of these Robinson-less minutes won't even go to Mutombo as Duncan might slide into the 5 spot against select lineups next to Artest.

(4) All-time great teams are heavily populated with both all-time great big men and all-time great offensive paint guards and forwards like Jordan, LeBron and Wade. Against both categories, Duncan is a tremendous asset either alone or at the 4 alongside Robinson/Mutombo.

Without knowing exactly who my ATG opposing players are, I would take Duncan and project the distribution of minutes as follows:

Curry (36) / Payton (12)
Reggie (24) / Ray (24)
Pippen (30) / Klay (18)
Duncan (30) / Artest (18)
Robinson (34) / Mutombo (8) / Duncan (6)

I do think that the composition of the opposing team is going to the critical factor in determining which of Bird or Duncan will be optimal with the roster you've specified. For instance if the opposition has LeBron or KD at the 4, I'd much rather have Duncan than Bird for the simple reason that neither Duncan or Bird would be a good matchup against LeBron/KD but Bird could play the 3 defensively alongside Artest but Duncan couldn't.

rand wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:
They beat everyone's ass really badly, so yeah. #1 seed, #1 SRS, #1 defense, lost 2 games in the post season.

Duncan and Robinson were at the polar opposite stages of their primes in 1999.

Robinson was still very good in 2003.
Do you really need 2 shot blockers on the floor at the same time or is the 2nd shot blocker not as useful as the 1st shot blocker?
Current Warriors badly need a shot blocker but is a 2nd shot blocker on the floor anywhere near as important as the jump from no shot blockers on the floor to having 1 shot blocker on the floor?

If Duncan is the team’s only shot blocker then I need Duncan even if that means not having Bird. But if Duncan is going to be playing next to Dikembe do I really need Duncan’s shot blocking or should I give up Duncan’s defense for Bird’s offense when Dikembe is on the floor next to them?

Problem here is peak Duncan is also a tremendous offensive player. Not as good as peak Bird but still excellent and offering a huge amount of additional value over Mutombo on that end.

The redundancy issue is double-sided. This team already has Steph Curry, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller and Klay Thompson. It's not clear that their need for additional offense is stronger than their need for additional defense, particularly when that additional defense comes from a great two-way player. Having Duncan at the 4 instead of Bird allows you to put more of the offensively talented guards on the floor because Duncan will be better able to mitigate their defensive vulnerabilities.

Specific to the roster you've provided, I'm taking Duncan without reservations. Let's review the roster:

Curry/Payton
Reggie/Ray/Klay
Pippen/Artest
???
Robinson/Deke/Eaton

(1) Eaton is only emergency depth. Without (perhaps multiple) injuries or major foul trouble Eaton should see 0.0 MPG. Basically we should proceed as if he's out of the picture.

(2) Duncan only played 63% of his career minutes at the 5 because he played 99% of his minutes after 2007 at the 5. During his prime (1999-2007) Duncan played 58% of his minutes at the 4. Prime Duncan could still comfortably play the 4 today as many 6'10+ players do (at least part time) including Giannis and Mobley and many others.

(3) Mutombo can only play the 5 and practically speaking the only minutes he would get are when Robinson needs a spell. If you also have Duncan, some of these Robinson-less minutes won't even go to Mutombo as Duncan might slide into the 5 spot against select lineups next to Artest.

(4) All-time great teams are heavily populated with both all-time great big men and all-time great offensive paint guards and forwards like Jordan, LeBron and Wade. Against both categories, Duncan is a tremendous asset either alone or at the 4 alongside Robinson/Mutombo.

Without knowing exactly who my ATG opposing players are, I would take Duncan and project the distribution of minutes as follows:

Curry (36) / Payton (12)
Reggie (24) / Ray (24)
Pippen (30) / Klay (18)
Duncan (30) / Artest (18)
Robinson (34) / Mutombo (8) / Duncan (6)

I do think that the composition of the opposing team is going to the critical factor in determining which of Bird or Duncan will be optimal with the roster you've specified. For instance if the opposition has LeBron or KD at the 4, I'd much rather have Duncan than Bird for the simple reason that neither Duncan or Bird would be a good matchup against LeBron/KD but Bird could play the 3 defensively alongside Artest but Duncan couldn't.

I was leaning towards giving the back up power forward minutes to Robinson or splitting them up between Robinson and Artest.
Peak Robinson was faster than both Bird and Duncan but Robinson had no experience being a power forward.

I don’t see Duncan as being comparable to Bird on offense.
I don’t think the guards need Duncan’s extra defensive help if Pippen is the small forward and any of Dikembe Robinson and Eaton is the center.

Duncan’s defense is better than Bird’s offense if you need Duncan’s defense. Peak Klay was a good defender. Peak Curry’s defense was OK and if Curry can’t guard the opposing point guard then put Payton on the point guard and dare the opposing off guard to post up Curry with a great shot blocking center and Pippen on the floor.

Was Ray Allen a bad defender? Miller was not a bad defender.

Bird was a good defender as long as he was guarding power forwards.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Team is so damn good that they don’t need Bird or Duncan. I could play myself 10 minutes a game against most teams and they still win and I suck. So lets stipulate that this super team will face another equally super team in the finals so you may need whichever of Bird or Duncan can help this team more.

All peaks.

Give me a team with shot blockers Mark Eaton, Dikembe and David Robison prebably getting some minutes at power forward.
I am adding all these shot blockers to not need Dunan’s shot blocking.

Then give me Curry, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, and Klay Thmposon.
I am adding all these shooters to not need Bird’s shooting.

Then give me Scttie Pippen, Gary Payton senior and Rot Artest.
That gives you a defensive point guard and 2 defensive small forwards. You can play Klay or Miller at small forward for more offense.

You get to pick the last man for that team and your choices are peak Duncan or or peak Bird.
Who do you pick Duncan or Bird?

I only take Duncan over Bird when I want Duncan to play like a defensive center. If I need shot blocking I take Duncan. If I don’t need shot blocking I take Bird.

But Realgm tends to have Duncan around 5 on their GOAT lists and Bird around 10. But Realgm cares about longevity and I care more about peaks. For this thread we are talking about peaks.

Bird was not a small forward and Duncan played more center than he played power forward. On most teams Duncan would be a center.
On defense Bird played a lot more power forward than small forward. Don’t be confused by McHale. McHale guarded Dominique Wilkins
.
On offense position barely matters as long as somebody can play the point guard role. If Bird had a better dribble he could play point guard but Bird’s dribble was not good enough for Bird to play point guard or to do what Doncic does.

They would not win if u play 10 mins a game my guy lol

Put them against an average NBA team in the current league and I think they can withstand 10 minutes of me playing even though I am short, old, out of shape and can’t shoot. I had problems recognizing who were my teammates when I passed playing 4 on 4 playground ball but I think the uniforms would help with that. At my peak I could make anybody look slow as I blew past them going to my right but unfortunately I could not do anything good after I blew past my defender and I am old and slow now. I never came accross anybody as fast as peak me but I assume NBA point guards are faster than I was at my 18 year old peak. I wast faster than everybody at miles too not just sprints but I never ran track so I don’t know just how fast I really was. i sure as hell am not fast anymore.

I had a couple games where all my transition pull up free throw lane jumpers dropped making me unguardable because I was too fast for anybody. I was looking like playground Gus Williams. But those games were flukes because I did not normally shoot that well and I am now slow.

I would be barely more useful than a road cone now but I thing that team would beat an average NBA team even if they had to play 4 on 5 for 10 minutes per game.

NGL they losing even if u in ur prime lol

I think it also matters what era. In Bird's day, most teams shot the majority of their attempts from close in to short midrange and offenses were designed to get those shots. In which case having two great shotblockers and a midpost scorer like Duncan is not as much of a waste. In today's NBA, most teams play 4 and even 5 out and both offenses and defenses are designed around that. In which case Bird's superior shooting and passing are probably more valuable. Where the break point is when modern offenses started to be widely used is at least arguable but Bird is most likely the better fit on the teams you named even if Duncan was the more valuable player in his career and even peaked higher in the situations they were in.

In an extreme ceiling-raiser situation like this, I'm taking Bird, but it is somewhat inane.