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70sFan wrote:Would you like to get ordered list, or only nominations?
Also, one year per player right?
70sFan wrote:My first, rough attempt to collect reasonable names. Chronological order:
PG:
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Magic Johnson
Steve Nash
Chris Paul
Stephen Curry
Luka Doncic
SG:
George Gervin
Michael Jordan
Reggie Miller
Kobe Bryant
Tracy McGrady
Dwyane Wade
James Harden
SF:
Paul Arizin
Elgin Baylor
Rick Barry
Julius Erving
Larry Bird
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Kawhi Leonard
PF:
Bob Pettit
Connie Hawkins
Bob McAdoo
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Dirk Nowitzki
Giannis Antetokounmpo
C:
George Mikan
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Moses Malone
Shaquille O'Neal
Nikola Jokic
That gives us 35 players. If I forgot some obvious names, please let me know.
70sFan wrote:My first, rough attempt to collect reasonable names. Chronological order:
PG:
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Magic Johnson
Steve Nash
Chris Paul
Stephen Curry
Luka Doncic
SG:
George Gervin
Michael Jordan
Reggie Miller
Kobe Bryant
Tracy McGrady
Dwyane Wade
James Harden
SF:
Paul Arizin
Elgin Baylor
Rick Barry
Julius Erving
Larry Bird
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Kawhi Leonard
PF:
Bob Pettit
Connie Hawkins
Bob McAdoo
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Dirk Nowitzki
Giannis Antetokounmpo
C:
George Mikan
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Moses Malone
Shaquille O'Neal
Nikola Jokic
That gives us 35 players. If I forgot some obvious names, please let me know.
IdolW0rm wrote:70sFan wrote:My first, rough attempt to collect reasonable names. Chronological order:
PG:
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Magic Johnson
Steve Nash
Chris Paul
Stephen Curry
Luka Doncic
SG:
George Gervin
Michael Jordan
Reggie Miller
Kobe Bryant
Tracy McGrady
Dwyane Wade
James Harden
SF:
Paul Arizin
Elgin Baylor
Rick Barry
Julius Erving
Larry Bird
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Kawhi Leonard
PF:
Bob Pettit
Connie Hawkins
Bob McAdoo
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Dirk Nowitzki
Giannis Antetokounmpo
C:
George Mikan
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Moses Malone
Shaquille O'Neal
Nikola Jokic
That gives us 35 players. If I forgot some obvious names, please let me know.
Probably not a popular opinion, but I put Manu in there on sheer impact alone. On a per minute basis, he is an absolute juggernaut on offense.
Understand his lack of minutes and therefore volume automatically excludes him from the convo, but man, was he a stud. Just an extremely hard player to rank.
70sFan wrote:IdolW0rm wrote:70sFan wrote:My first, rough attempt to collect reasonable names. Chronological order:
PG:
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Magic Johnson
Steve Nash
Chris Paul
Stephen Curry
Luka Doncic
SG:
George Gervin
Michael Jordan
Reggie Miller
Kobe Bryant
Tracy McGrady
Dwyane Wade
James Harden
SF:
Paul Arizin
Elgin Baylor
Rick Barry
Julius Erving
Larry Bird
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Kawhi Leonard
PF:
Bob Pettit
Connie Hawkins
Bob McAdoo
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Dirk Nowitzki
Giannis Antetokounmpo
C:
George Mikan
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Moses Malone
Shaquille O'Neal
Nikola Jokic
That gives us 35 players. If I forgot some obvious names, please let me know.
Probably not a popular opinion, but I put Manu in there on sheer impact alone. On a per minute basis, he is an absolute juggernaut on offense.
Understand his lack of minutes and therefore volume automatically excludes him from the convo, but man, was he a stud. Just an extremely hard player to rank.
I thought about Manu, but getting to top 30 is hard and Manu was never a clear offensive superstar on his team. Not that his impact wasn't on that level, but his role was always limited compared to the rest I mentioned. I mean, even in 2005 playoffs teams prepared their defense for Duncan's inside pressence, not for Manu (which could be a mistake, but still).
AEnigma wrote:Thinking about this, I came up with twenty-five names depending on the criteria used.
Top relative to era, but lose a fair amount of impact today: Oscar and West, in that order; Rick Barry and George Gervin honourable mentions.
Extremely high relative to era, but would be lesser outliers today: Magic, Jordan, playoff Reggie, Bird, Barkley, Wade, approximately in that order (could be swayed on the ordering of the back four).
Extremely high relative to era, but short-lived peaks keep them out of the preceding category: Penny, McGrady, and Brandon Roy
Extremely high relative to their position, but exact ordering is unclear because positional relativity is annoying to parse: Jokic, Shaq, Dirk, Durant at power forward; will note Kareem and Moses barely miss the cut here but were significant era outliers in their own right.
Remainder is more focused on how I assess offensive engines purely in the modern game; Nash was of course also a particular standout relative to the 2000s.
Tier 1: Nash
Tier 2: Lebron, Steph
Tier 3 (no order): Kobe, Chris Paul, Harden, Deron Williams, Trae, Lillard, playoff Luka
Tier 4: Kawhi Leonard (Ray Allen honourable mention)
OhayoKD wrote:AEnigma wrote:Thinking about this, I came up with twenty-five names depending on the criteria used.
Top relative to era, but lose a fair amount of impact today: Oscar and West, in that order; Rick Barry and George Gervin honourable mentions.
Extremely high relative to era, but would be lesser outliers today: Magic, Jordan, playoff Reggie, Bird, Barkley, Wade, approximately in that order (could be swayed on the ordering of the back four).
Extremely high relative to era, but short-lived peaks keep them out of the preceding category: Penny, McGrady, and Brandon Roy
Extremely high relative to their position, but exact ordering is unclear because positional relativity is annoying to parse: Jokic, Shaq, Dirk, Durant at power forward; will note Kareem and Moses barely miss the cut here but were significant era outliers in their own right.
Remainder is more focused on how I assess offensive engines purely in the modern game; Nash was of course also a particular standout relative to the 2000s.
Tier 1: Nash
Tier 2: Lebron, Steph
Tier 3 (no order): Kobe, Chris Paul, Harden, Deron Williams, Trae, Lillard, playoff Luka
Tier 4: Kawhi Leonard (Ray Allen honourable mention)
How do the modern guys stack up all-time iyo(era-relative and/or "time-machiney")
AEnigma wrote:OhayoKD wrote:AEnigma wrote:Thinking about this, I came up with twenty-five names depending on the criteria used.
Top relative to era, but lose a fair amount of impact today: Oscar and West, in that order; Rick Barry and George Gervin honourable mentions.
Extremely high relative to era, but would be lesser outliers today: Magic, Jordan, playoff Reggie, Bird, Barkley, Wade, approximately in that order (could be swayed on the ordering of the back four).
Extremely high relative to era, but short-lived peaks keep them out of the preceding category: Penny, McGrady, and Brandon Roy
Extremely high relative to their position, but exact ordering is unclear because positional relativity is annoying to parse: Jokic, Shaq, Dirk, Durant at power forward; will note Kareem and Moses barely miss the cut here but were significant era outliers in their own right.
Remainder is more focused on how I assess offensive engines purely in the modern game; Nash was of course also a particular standout relative to the 2000s.
Tier 1: Nash
Tier 2: Lebron, Steph
Tier 3 (no order): Kobe, Chris Paul, Harden, Deron Williams, Trae, Lillard, playoff Luka
Tier 4: Kawhi Leonard (Ray Allen honourable mention)
How do the modern guys stack up all-time iyo(era-relative and/or "time-machiney")
Tier 1 (top by any measure): Nash and Magic
Tier 2: Lebron, maybe Jordan (have previously explained how that brand of isolation volume scoring particularly suited earlier eras).
Tier BIGS (high relativity via positional/era exploitation): Shaq, Dirk, Jokic, Barkley at power forward
Tier 3.5 (ahead of the bigs depending on approach): Steph, Bird, Chris Paul, Kobe, Harden, D-Will, Reggie, Oscar, West
Tier 5 (time machine argument is too potent): Luka, Trae, Lillard, Wade, Durant, McGrady, Westbrook, Penny
Im Your Father wrote:AEnigma wrote:OhayoKD wrote:How do the modern guys stack up all-time iyo(era-relative and/or "time-machiney")
Tier 1 (top by any measure): Nash and Magic
Tier 2: Lebron, maybe Jordan (have previously explained how that brand of isolation volume scoring particularly suited earlier eras).
Tier BIGS (high relativity via positional/era exploitation): Shaq, Dirk, Jokic, Barkley at power forward
Tier 3.5 (ahead of the bigs depending on approach): Steph, Bird, Chris Paul, Kobe, Harden, D-Will, Reggie, Oscar, West
Tier 5 (time machine argument is too potent): Luka, Trae, Lillard, Wade, Durant, McGrady, Westbrook, Penny
I need to hear about how Deron Williams is a tier ahead of Wade and Durant (not to mention the others).
Colbinii wrote:Im Your Father wrote:AEnigma wrote:Tier 1 (top by any measure): Nash and Magic
Tier 2: Lebron, maybe Jordan (have previously explained how that brand of isolation volume scoring particularly suited earlier eras).
Tier BIGS (high relativity via positional/era exploitation): Shaq, Dirk, Jokic, Barkley at power forward
Tier 3.5 (ahead of the bigs depending on approach): Steph, Bird, Chris Paul, Kobe, Harden, D-Will, Reggie, Oscar, West
Tier 5 (time machine argument is too potent): Luka, Trae, Lillard, Wade, Durant, McGrady, Westbrook, Penny
I need to hear about how Deron Williams is a tier ahead of Wade and Durant (not to mention the others).
The first point of evidence would be the Jazz being 22nd in Ortg in D-Will's rookie season [He only started half the games] and with an extremely similar roster but with D-Will taking the reigns of the offense in 2007, the team ranked 3rd in the league in Ortg. The following 3 years they finished 1st, 8th and 8th before D-Will was traded mid-season in 2011.
A second point of evidence was D-Will was an extremely effective post-season performer. In 2007, against the Spurs, Williams anchored a good offense while posting 26/8 on 61.4 TS% [30.5 USG%] but struggled in round 1 against Houston. I bring up Houston because just a year later [2008], Utah faced Houston once again in the 1st round but this time D-Will torched them with 21/9 on 63 TS% [Houston was a Top 3 defense both years] and D-Will was also great against the Lakers in 2008 with 22/12 on 59 TS%. Deron did have some lesser series in his career in Utah, but overall in the post-season with Utah [44 G] posted 21.1/9.6 on just 3.5 TO, 5.2 OBPM, 57.9 TS% and .445 FTr against a lot of great defenses.
The counter point to this [and I will keep this short] is Utah was all-in on offense during this era [Boozer/Okur front-court] but the team always had horrible spacing, which sort of counters this. Regardless, Utah was, during this time, a top tier offense in the NBA with extremely efficient scoring from the field [Top 5 in eFG throughout this period] but also a team that could draw fouls [Routinely Top 5 in FTr].
I don't hold D-Will in this type of light, but I have no reason to believe he wasn't the best offensive PG to ever wear a Utah Jazz Jersey
Im Your Father wrote:AEnigma wrote:OhayoKD wrote:How do the modern guys stack up all-time iyo(era-relative and/or "time-machiney")
Tier 1 (top by any measure): Nash and Magic
Tier 2: Lebron, maybe Jordan (have previously explained how that brand of isolation volume scoring particularly suited earlier eras).
Tier BIGS (high relativity via positional/era exploitation): Shaq, Dirk, Jokic, Barkley at power forward
Tier 3.5 (ahead of the bigs depending on approach): Steph, Bird, Chris Paul, Kobe, Harden, D-Will, Reggie, Oscar, West
Tier 5 (time machine argument is too potent): Luka, Trae, Lillard, Wade, Durant, McGrady, Westbrook, Penny
I need to hear about how Deron Williams is a tier ahead of Wade and Durant (not to mention the others).
AEnigma wrote:Im Your Father wrote:AEnigma wrote:Tier 1 (top by any measure): Nash and Magic
Tier 2: Lebron, maybe Jordan (have previously explained how that brand of isolation volume scoring particularly suited earlier eras).
Tier BIGS (high relativity via positional/era exploitation): Shaq, Dirk, Jokic, Barkley at power forward
Tier 3.5 (ahead of the bigs depending on approach): Steph, Bird, Chris Paul, Kobe, Harden, D-Will, Reggie, Oscar, West
Tier 5 (time machine argument is too potent): Luka, Trae, Lillard, Wade, Durant, McGrady, Westbrook, Penny
I need to hear about how Deron Williams is a tier ahead of Wade and Durant (not to mention the others).
Because he is one of the five to ten best passers in the history of the sport (without the scoring limitations of someone like Jason Kidd) and at his peak was the engine behind pretty consistent +6 on-court offences.
I am not saying he is better in every circumstance than someone like Wade, who is an inferior passer but can shoulder a heavier volume load on more inept offences. I am not saying he is easier to build around from a game theory perspective than someone like Durant, who can generate strong offence next to any lead playmaker and at least maintain well in a regular season setting without one. However, comparatively, if we are willing to accept Magic and Nash as the top two candidates for #1 offensive peak (and not everyone is) based on their results in that Deron Williams role, probably worth asking why we would stop with them and not extend to others of the archetype. I did not explicitly mention them, but players like Isiah Thomas and Kevin Johnson also were the engines behind highly successful relative offences in their time (Isiah more specifically in the postseason). And to me, neither is a better offensive weapon in any absolute sense than peak D-Will.
Within that high volume passing archetype, which I do think is the best path to maximised offence (even if, yes, this can be largely a function of era and of team structure), that leaves Luka, Trae, and Westbrook. Now, a common attribute for these three players is they all have functionally no off-ball game, and that is an immediate advantage for Deron even if you care to argue those three might have a slight on-ball advantage; I do not want the ball out of any of their hands, but it is much better to have that option to maintain true offensive dynamism. Trae I think has clearer postseason flaws because I do not trust his scoring as much. Brilliant passer and all-time volume playmaker, but that is mostly theory for now. So he is out. I also have issues with Westbrook’s scoring, although I probably lean toward Westbrook over Trae for the time being because he is more proven in the postseason. However, if I swapped Deron and Westbrook at their respective peaks, I think Deron’s team would see more offensive improvement (if not necessarily overall improvement, because Westbrook offered more on defence than Deron did).
Luka belongs in that higher tier though, and I do not have much of a skillset (off-ball play aside) or result case for Deron over him. Will edit that.