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Where would Peak Nash rank in todays league overall?

Top 5ish.

Jokic, Giannis and Curry are definitely better. He's in the Luka/Embiid range, but I'd be willing to take Nash against just about anyone else this season considering the health issues of guys like James/Durant/Kawhi.

He was already a consistent top 3-5 player from '05-'07 competing against Kobe, Dirk, Wade and Duncan. He was a stupendous Playoff performer (his '05 Playoffs is probably the best offensive Playoffs by a PG not named Curry in the last 30 years). He'd likely raise his scoring volume today and be even more effective.

ardee wrote:Top 5ish.

Jokic, Giannis and Curry are definitely better. He's in the Luka/Embiid range, but I'd be willing to take Nash against just about anyone else this season considering the health issues of guys like James/Durant/Kawhi.

He was already a consistent top 3-5 player from '05-'07 competing against Kobe, Dirk, Wade and Duncan. He was a stupendous Playoff performer (his '05 Playoffs is probably the best offensive Playoffs by a PG not named Curry in the last 30 years). He'd likely raise his scoring volume today and be even more effective.

What makes Curry definitely better? Especially with all the games missed.

70sFan wrote:

ardee wrote:Top 5ish.

Jokic, Giannis and Curry are definitely better. He's in the Luka/Embiid range, but I'd be willing to take Nash against just about anyone else this season considering the health issues of guys like James/Durant/Kawhi.

He was already a consistent top 3-5 player from '05-'07 competing against Kobe, Dirk, Wade and Duncan. He was a stupendous Playoff performer (his '05 Playoffs is probably the best offensive Playoffs by a PG not named Curry in the last 30 years). He'd likely raise his scoring volume today and be even more effective.

What makes Curry definitely better? Especially with all the games missed.

It is feasible that if you put 2007 Nash in 2023 he may actually be better but I just can't rank Steph lower than 3 this year after what he did in the Playoffs last season. Steph is also a better defender.

The games missed mean more for the other guys imo since Steph has still proven himself to be at the highest level in the Playoffs recently despite the injury issues.

Top 3 to 5, exactly the same range he was in his era. Best player on offense aswell.

top 5-7. Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Nash/James/Kawhi/Durant

Agree with top 5 I wouldn't be in anyway surprised if he put up top 2 season extra spacing and I imagine he'd be encouraged to shot even more and he's a deadeye He'd be scary today

So, cautious treading into these waters again:

There are certainly concerns about Nash in today's game.

Defensively, while back in Nash's time many thought he was having horribly negative impact on his team's defense, he really didn't...but that may change in the age of bum-hunting. The big question about Nash in today's game is how effective offenses would be in switch-targeting Nash, and to be frank, it's hard to imagine it wouldn't hurt Nash's defense to some degree relative to what it was in his own time.

On offense the question is the more standard question to ask when doing "How would X do today?" questions:

Would the advantages he gained today be greater than the advantages gained by others?

I think it's quite possible that he gain less of an advantage today than he did back then because now the rest of the league is playing pace & space.

Nash would still be the smartest guard if he played today, would still pass better than any other guard, and may well be the 2nd best shooter in the league. You'd absolutely want him as the star of your offense without question, but when you're talking about a guy who arguably has the GOAT resume when it comes to creating outlier team offense, the league may well catch up to some degree.

There's a broader point here about spearheads: Their innovation edge lets them benefit in competition with their actual contemporaries more so than against those who later follow the path of the spearhead.

ardee wrote:Top 5ish.

Jokic, Giannis and Curry are definitely better. He's in the Luka/Embiid range, but I'd be willing to take Nash against just about anyone else this season considering the health issues of guys like James/Durant/Kawhi.

He was already a consistent top 3-5 player from '05-'07 competing against Kobe, Dirk, Wade and Duncan. He was a stupendous Playoff performer (his '05 Playoffs is probably the best offensive Playoffs by a PG not named Curry in the last 30 years). He'd likely raise his scoring volume today and be even more effective.

if talking about players when healthy AD is the Lakers best player and better than peak Nash. I think Steve would translate pretty good though borderline top 5 and would be the best playmaker in the league.

Doctor MJ wrote:So, cautious treading into these waters again:

There are certainly concerns about Nash in today's game.

Defensively, while back in Nash's time many thought he was having horribly negative impact on his team's defense, he really didn't...but that may change in the age of bum-hunting. The big question about Nash in today's game is how effective offenses would be in switch-targeting Nash, and to be frank, it's hard to imagine it wouldn't hurt Nash's defense to some degree relative to what it was in his own time.

On offense the question is the more standard question to ask when doing "How would X do today?" questions:

Would the advantages he gained today be greater than the advantages gained by others?

I think it's quite possible that he gain less of an advantage today than he did back then because now the rest of the league is playing pace & space.

Nash would still be the smartest guard if he played today, would still pass better than any other guard, and may well be the 2nd best shooter in the league. You'd absolutely want him as the star of your offense without question, but when you're talking about a guy who arguably has the GOAT resume when it comes to creating outlier team offense, the league may well catch up to some degree.

There's a broader point here about spearheads: Their innovation edge lets them benefit in competition with their actual contemporaries more so than against those who later follow the path of the spearhead.

I think the thing with a Reggie or a Nash is that they were already playing the right way.
Rule changes / changes in refereeing had some impact too but largely they were already playing the way they should have been playing.

I don't think this era would benefit them much.
They'd have an easier time being recognized but I'm not sure their impact would be higher.

If we take a hypothetical where no guard ever shoots a 3, except for Miller. Miller's impact would be gigantic relative to most if not all guards.
But if suddenly every guard capable of making 3s at a decent rate, also starts shooting 3s. Miller's relative impact would diminish.

I think that's what would happen if you transport Miller or Nash.
Miller would still be a very talented shooter.
Nash would still be #1 or #2 in shooting and #1 in passing.
But there are a lot of other talents using their talent in the right way now. They're not as special anymore.

I just want to clarify that when we are talking "the right way," for me that's the right way with current NBA talent, rules, and refereeing. In the ABA era, when most players were shooting 3's at a clip under 30%, the right way would be to have the guys who were good at it like Dampier and Carrier shoot 3's and guys who don't have the range, don't try to fake it. Maybe (depends on the spacing effect of bad shooters trying it anyway).

Sign5 wrote:top 5-7. Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Nash/James/Kawhi/Durant

Jimmy

Fun Fact From Discord Server I am in:

"Was wondering about Steve Nash's scoring scalability after I did all that work on him the other day so I just did some math.

During the 65 games from 05/06 until 07/08 in which he had 15 or more field goal attempts
Steve Nash scored **25.4** points per game on **63.9%** TS
which I think is eerily similar to Steph Curry's 14/15 season
where he scored **23.8** points per game on **63.8%** TS"

-bowman

frica wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:So, cautious treading into these waters again:

There are certainly concerns about Nash in today's game.

Defensively, while back in Nash's time many thought he was having horribly negative impact on his team's defense, he really didn't...but that may change in the age of bum-hunting. The big question about Nash in today's game is how effective offenses would be in switch-targeting Nash, and to be frank, it's hard to imagine it wouldn't hurt Nash's defense to some degree relative to what it was in his own time.

On offense the question is the more standard question to ask when doing "How would X do today?" questions:

Would the advantages he gained today be greater than the advantages gained by others?

I think it's quite possible that he gain less of an advantage today than he did back then because now the rest of the league is playing pace & space.

Nash would still be the smartest guard if he played today, would still pass better than any other guard, and may well be the 2nd best shooter in the league. You'd absolutely want him as the star of your offense without question, but when you're talking about a guy who arguably has the GOAT resume when it comes to creating outlier team offense, the league may well catch up to some degree.

There's a broader point here about spearheads: Their innovation edge lets them benefit in competition with their actual contemporaries more so than against those who later follow the path of the spearhead.

I think the thing with a Reggie or a Nash is that they were already playing the right way.
Rule changes / changes in refereeing had some impact too but largely they were already playing the way they should have been playing.

I don't think this era would benefit them much.
They'd have an easier time being recognized but I'm not sure their impact would be higher.

If we take a hypothetical where no guard ever shoots a 3, except for Miller. Miller's impact would be gigantic relative to most if not all guards.
But if suddenly every guard capable of making 3s at a decent rate, also starts shooting 3s. Miller's relative impact would diminish.

I think that's what would happen if you transport Miller or Nash.
Miller would still be a very talented shooter.
Nash would still be #1 or #2 in shooting and #1 in passing.
But there are a lot of other talents using their talent in the right way now. They're not as special anymore.

Agree with the general point but let me put it like this:

If a spearhead is completely embraced by his organization's strategy, he'll likely be less effective in subsequent eras.
If a spearhead is completely ignored, he'll likely be more effective in subsequent eras.

With most spearheads, the reality is somewhere in between.

I'd say peak Nash was pretty close to completely embraced but extended prime Nash was not, hence peak likely lower today but extended prime is uncertain.

I'd say Reggie was basically always partially embraced. They made use of him as a rover, but they didn't utterly rethink what could be done with a rover from 3 and as such I think he could have been more valuable in his own era. Thus, I'm not sure if he'd be more or less valuable today

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Fun Fact From Discord Server I am in:

"Was wondering about Steve Nash's scoring scalability after I did all that work on him the other day so I just did some math.

During the 65 games from 05/06 until 07/08 in which he had 15 or more field goal attempts
Steve Nash scored **25.4** points per game on **63.9%** TS
which I think is eerily similar to Steph Curry's 14/15 season
where he scored **23.8** points per game on **63.8%** TS"

-bowman

Nash himself admitted he regrets not shooting as much as he did back then, and would definitely shoot more if he played today. Would sure have been fun to see.

I'd love to see some Nash/Stockton shootouts where both went full Lilliard on each other (in a modern offense that focuses on outside shooting setting up interior scoring instead of the other way around). Nash the more creative scorer, Stockton the superior defender, neither of whom shot anywhere near the volumes you might expect out of guys with their shooting range today.

Clyde Frazier wrote:

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Fun Fact From Discord Server I am in:

"Was wondering about Steve Nash's scoring scalability after I did all that work on him the other day so I just did some math.

During the 65 games from 05/06 until 07/08 in which he had 15 or more field goal attempts
Steve Nash scored **25.4** points per game on **63.9%** TS
which I think is eerily similar to Steph Curry's 14/15 season
where he scored **23.8** points per game on **63.8%** TS"

-bowman

Nash himself admitted he regrets not shooting as much as he did back then, and would definitely shoot more if he played today. Would sure have been fun to see.

A question I have here is: could Nash get many more shots off? He was an off the dribble pull-up king but he dribbled into his shots and didn’t have the step back that guys today have. His release also isn’t quick like Steph or Dame’s so I wonder just how realistic it is to assume that he can double his volume or something.

Peregrine01 wrote:

Clyde Frazier wrote:

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Fun Fact From Discord Server I am in:

"Was wondering about Steve Nash's scoring scalability after I did all that work on him the other day so I just did some math.

During the 65 games from 05/06 until 07/08 in which he had 15 or more field goal attempts
Steve Nash scored **25.4** points per game on **63.9%** TS
which I think is eerily similar to Steph Curry's 14/15 season
where he scored **23.8** points per game on **63.8%** TS"

-bowman

Nash himself admitted he regrets not shooting as much as he did back then, and would definitely shoot more if he played today. Would sure have been fun to see.

A question I have here is: could Nash get many more shots off? He was an off the dribble pull-up king but he dribbled into his shots and didn’t have the step back that guys today have. His release also isn’t quick like Steph or Dame’s so I wonder just how realistic it is to assume that he can double his volume or something.

He was a pretty crafty slasher and had a really nice touch, it was a lot more grounded than some guys nowadays but it was effective

Don’t think he’d double his volume or anything of course

Peregrine01 wrote:

Clyde Frazier wrote:

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Fun Fact From Discord Server I am in:

"Was wondering about Steve Nash's scoring scalability after I did all that work on him the other day so I just did some math.

During the 65 games from 05/06 until 07/08 in which he had 15 or more field goal attempts
Steve Nash scored **25.4** points per game on **63.9%** TS
which I think is eerily similar to Steph Curry's 14/15 season
where he scored **23.8** points per game on **63.8%** TS"

-bowman

Nash himself admitted he regrets not shooting as much as he did back then, and would definitely shoot more if he played today. Would sure have been fun to see.

A question I have here is: could Nash get many more shots off? He was an off the dribble pull-up king but he dribbled into his shots and didn’t have the step back that guys today have. His release also isn’t quick like Steph or Dame’s so I wonder just how realistic it is to assume that he can double his volume or something.

Of course he's not doubling his volume, but his firing rate is getting a bump in 2023.
And Nash is one of the most technically proficient players to ever step foot on an NBA court.
He'd master the stepback or pretty much any move you can possibly pull off with a basketball in a couple afternoons in the gym.

Probably put him in luka tier. Everybody scoring more so I’ll give him a scoring boost too. Think curry higher volume makes him a tier above Nash.