RealGM

"Me and Magic, Bird, Worthy, McHale or Malone, David Robinson or Abdul-Jabbar,"

https://ballislife.com/michael-jordans-1992-playboy-magazine-interview-jealously-racism-fear/

Whole interview is good but I find that one nugget of information relevant to this forum.

Even as late as 1992 where MJ and Hakeem had been in the league for nearly a decade and were nearing their 30s MJ thought Robinson was already better.

Not a bashing thread I just Interesting that the perception that Hakeem had back, then is totally different from the one that he has now

Hakeems 1994 and 1995 campaigns really changed his image.

Focusing in Robinson, I would rather easily take his 1990-1992 stretch over any Hakeem stretch prior to 1993.

Focusing on Jordan's player evaluation--not much to see here.

Colbinii wrote:Focusing in Robinson, I would rather easily take his 1990-1992 stretch over any Hakeem stretch prior to 1993.

Don't you think it's a bit strange? I have seen a lot of similar opinions about Hakeem, which suggests that people think Olajuwon made a quantum leap in 1993 as a player. Do you share this view? If so, isn't Tomjanovic system a the key reason for that - not Hakeem's improvement?

I say this as someone who is significantly higher on younger Hakeem than most.

70sFan wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Focusing in Robinson, I would rather easily take his 1990-1992 stretch over any Hakeem stretch prior to 1993.

Don't you think it's a bit strange? I have seen a lot of similar opinions about Hakeem, which suggests that people think Olajuwon made a quantum leap in 1993 as a player. Do you share this view? If so, isn't Tomjanovic system a the key reason for that - not Hakeem's improvement?

I say this as someone who is significantly higher on younger Hakeem than most.

Small sample playoff series create narratives.

Worthy over Pippen and over all the higher scoring forwards of the era (Nique, Dantley, King, English, etc.) too.

70sFan wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Focusing in Robinson, I would rather easily take his 1990-1992 stretch over any Hakeem stretch prior to 1993.

Don't you think it's a bit strange? I have seen a lot of similar opinions about Hakeem, which suggests that people think Olajuwon made a quantum leap in 1993 as a player. Do you share this view? If so, isn't Tomjanovic system a the key reason for that - not Hakeem's improvement?

I say this as someone who is significantly higher on younger Hakeem than most.

I know you weren’t referring to me, but I feel over the years we’ve overcorrected on Hakeem in my opinion. I don’t think much separates him vs Robinson.

Colbinii wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Focusing in Robinson, I would rather easily take his 1990-1992 stretch over any Hakeem stretch prior to 1993.

Don't you think it's a bit strange? I have seen a lot of similar opinions about Hakeem, which suggests that people think Olajuwon made a quantum leap in 1993 as a player. Do you share this view? If so, isn't Tomjanovic system a the key reason for that - not Hakeem's improvement?

I say this as someone who is significantly higher on younger Hakeem than most.

Small sample playoff series create narratives.

I know, my quesiton is what's your thought about it.

1993Playoffs wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Focusing in Robinson, I would rather easily take his 1990-1992 stretch over any Hakeem stretch prior to 1993.

Don't you think it's a bit strange? I have seen a lot of similar opinions about Hakeem, which suggests that people think Olajuwon made a quantum leap in 1993 as a player. Do you share this view? If so, isn't Tomjanovic system a the key reason for that - not Hakeem's improvement?

I say this as someone who is significantly higher on younger Hakeem than most.

I know you weren’t referring to me, but I feel over the years we’ve overcorrected on Hakeem in my opinion. I don’t think much separates him vs Robinson.

Or we still underestime younger Hakeem seasons.

1993Playoffs wrote:"Me and Magic, Bird, Worthy, McHale or Malone, David Robinson or Abdul-Jabbar,"

https://ballislife.com/michael-jordans-1992-playboy-magazine-interview-jealously-racism-fear/

Whole interview is good but I find that one nugget of information relevant to this forum.

Even as late as 1992 where MJ and Hakeem had been in the league for nearly a decade and were nearing their 30s MJ thought Robinson was already better.

Not a bashing thread I just Interesting that the perception that Hakeem had back, then is totally different from the one that he has now

The 94 and 95 playoffs boosted Hakeem's legacy so much and the 95 playoffs did an equivalent amount of damage to DRob's legacy.

The best centers were DRob, Shaq, Hakeem, with Ewing being a step below. Then Hakeem won b2b championships, beat Shaq in the finals (in a sweep) and that was that, the narrative has stuck. But in my mind, DRob never had the supporting cast that Shaq or Hakeem had. Shaq had Penny and Kobe...that is as good as you can ask for....while Hakeem got some great clutch performances from Sam Cassell, Robert Horry, Mario Elie in those playoffs. Without the Kiss of Death shot, we don't have this narrative.....

1993Playoffs wrote:"Me and Magic, Bird, Worthy, McHale or Malone, David Robinson or Abdul-Jabbar,"

https://ballislife.com/michael-jordans-1992-playboy-magazine-interview-jealously-racism-fear/

Whole interview is good but I find that one nugget of information relevant to this forum.

Even as late as 1992 where MJ and Hakeem had been in the league for nearly a decade and were nearing their 30s MJ thought Robinson was already better.

Not a bashing thread I just Interesting that the perception that Hakeem had back, then is totally different from the one that he has now

Jordan of then (like a lot of people on RealGM) that think 1994 and 95 made Hakeem, omit the individual playoff run Hakeem had in the 1985-86 season where they throttled the defending champions Los Angeles as huge underdogs in the midst of them having a stranglehold on the NBA. As far as I'm concerned the greatest underdog series win in NBA history.

That was comfortably better than anything Robinson (and Ewing) had done up to that point.

And even in the midst of the worst season of his prime Hakeem when facing the Bulls the 91-92 same year as this interview had this gem of a game vs the Bulls:



He blocked 8 shots (and possibly other challenges that led to misses) and at 2:34 gets caught with MJ on a switch and is still agile enough to keep him from getting past him forcing a miss.

Then at 8:30 with the chance to tie the game. He sprints from the key to block MJs game tying shot at the 3pt line

G35 wrote:The 94 and 95 playoffs boosted Hakeem's legacy so much and the 95 playoffs did an equivalent amount of damage to DRob's legacy.

The best centers were DRob, Shaq, Hakeem, with Ewing being a step below. Then Hakeem won b2b championships, beat Shaq in the finals (in a sweep) and that was that, the narrative has stuck. But in my mind, DRob never had the supporting cast that Shaq or Hakeem had. Shaq had Penny and Kobe...that is as good as you can ask for....while Hakeem got some great clutch performances from Sam Cassell, Robert Horry, Mario Elie in those playoffs. Without the Kiss of Death shot, we don't have this narrative.....

The 93-94 Rockets imho weren't anymore or less talented than the Spurs that season. I think that season was more telling than the 95 WCF meeting.

They both met Utah in the playoffs and Robinson was completely taken out of the series....it was even worse individually for him than 95 whereas Hakeem was flat out dominant.

In 1995 Elliott and Johnson gave him help that matched Clyde/Horry and the series was tied 2-2 at one point. But Hakeem absolutely went crazy in games 5 and 6.

Lastly touched on this before....Rodman was a complete "****" in every facet on and off the court save for grabbing a ton of rebounds which really compromised the Spurs. Sad for Robinson to have to deal with that at the absolutely worst possible time.

70sFan wrote:

Colbinii wrote:

70sFan wrote:Don't you think it's a bit strange? I have seen a lot of similar opinions about Hakeem, which suggests that people think Olajuwon made a quantum leap in 1993 as a player. Do you share this view? If so, isn't Tomjanovic system a the key reason for that - not Hakeem's improvement?

I say this as someone who is significantly higher on younger Hakeem than most.

Small sample playoff series create narratives.

I know, my quesiton is what's your thought about it.

I think Hakeem was always a great defensive player but his offense left some to be desired in the 1980s and into the early 1990s. Part of this is clearly due to coaching [I don't see Bill Fitch or Don Chaney as great offensive minded coaches but good defensive coaches] but combined with the rosters of Houston in the 1980s and early 1990s [they weren't good and defensive slanted] simply didn't allow Hakeem--an excellent post-player--to thrive.

Hakeem was also somewhat raw when he entered the league and didn't have a great touch on the ball until he developed it over the years. He was a sub-70% free throw shooter over the sum of his first 6 years while he was at 75% over the next 6 years. For someone his size, he was extremely skilled and showed a preference of working in the high-post, midrange and baseline [away from the hoop] where he often settled for inefficient shots [efficient if you are Dirk, not if you are ~40% mid-range shooter].

Hakeem also wasn't a good passer from the jump, again, part of it being the poor offenses he was put in but part of it simply being he wasn't a capable passer from the jump.

I put a lot of the development for Houston and Hakeem into Tomjanovic but also they simply acquired/developed actual shooters. The team started to shoot more 3's in 1990 but they weren't good at converting them. I also think it takes time for players to put it all together at the highest level and make the hardest leap: From All-NBA level to MVP level.

70sFan wrote:

1993Playoffs wrote:

70sFan wrote:Don't you think it's a bit strange? I have seen a lot of similar opinions about Hakeem, which suggests that people think Olajuwon made a quantum leap in 1993 as a player. Do you share this view? If so, isn't Tomjanovic system a the key reason for that - not Hakeem's improvement?

I say this as someone who is significantly higher on younger Hakeem than most.

I know you weren’t referring to me, but I feel over the years we’ve overcorrected on Hakeem in my opinion. I don’t think much separates him vs Robinson.

Or we still underestime younger Hakeem seasons.

Do we? He was typically seen as a Barkley level player at the time. I think D-Rob clears that hurdle

G35 wrote:

1993Playoffs wrote:"Me and Magic, Bird, Worthy, McHale or Malone, David Robinson or Abdul-Jabbar,"

https://ballislife.com/michael-jordans-1992-playboy-magazine-interview-jealously-racism-fear/

Whole interview is good but I find that one nugget of information relevant to this forum.

Even as late as 1992 where MJ and Hakeem had been in the league for nearly a decade and were nearing their 30s MJ thought Robinson was already better.

Not a bashing thread I just Interesting that the perception that Hakeem had back, then is totally different from the one that he has now

The 94 and 95 playoffs boosted Hakeem's legacy so much and the 95 playoffs did an equivalent amount of damage to DRob's legacy.

The best centers were DRob, Shaq, Hakeem, with Ewing being a step below. Then Hakeem won b2b championships, beat Shaq in the finals (in a sweep) and that was that, the narrative has stuck. But in my mind, DRob never had the supporting cast that Shaq or Hakeem had. Shaq had Penny and Kobe...that is as good as you can ask for....while Hakeem got some great clutch performances from Sam Cassell, Robert Horry, Mario Elie in those playoffs. Without the Kiss of Death shot, we don't have this narrative.....

Or maybe if Robinson were a better postseason performer, we would not have this narrative.

In 1990 he went seven-games again the eventual conference champions as a rookie (and as a second option…). Good stuff. In 1991 he lost 3-1 to a 7-seed, but hey, he at least put up efficient scoring numbers (against a team with no functional frontcourt). And then in 1992 he won DPoY.

After that, he had a down year in 1993. Did fine in the playoffs but nothing to celebrate. 1994 he rebounds and takes on a larger scoring role (much as Hakeem did in 1993), but is upset 1-3 by the Jazz and performs abysmally. In 1995 he wins two series in ugly fashion against .500 teams and then gets thoroughly dominated by Hakeem. And then in 1996 he again struggles against the Jazz.

In his prime, he never beat a 3-SRS team. He lost as the home team four times in six playoff appearances (five in seven if we count 2000 when he was again asked to lead the team) — once as a substantial favourite. That is not because he was not blessed with Robert Horry or Mario Elie or Kenny Smith; that is because he was not a good playoff performer. Yes, he made his teams look better than they were in the regular season, but if their real postseason level with him was only like a 4-SRS team, how far does that go. At least Garnett can say he beat a 5.4-SRS Kings team. Pre-1994 Hakeem had one of the greatest ever playoff upsets as a sophomore, dominating the defending champion 6.8 SRS Lakers. What can Robinson say?

1993Playoffs wrote:

70sFan wrote:

1993Playoffs wrote:
I know you weren’t referring to me, but I feel over the years we’ve overcorrected on Hakeem in my opinion. I don’t think much separates him vs Robinson.

Or we still underestime younger Hakeem seasons.

Do we? He was typically seen as a Barkley level player at the time. I think D-Rob clears that hurdle

Yes, at least in my opinion. As always, defense is harder to quantify so people assume 1990 Hakeem was significantly worse than 1995 version and not on Barkley etc. level. I disagree with that, quite strongly.

AEnigma wrote:

G35 wrote:

1993Playoffs wrote:"Me and Magic, Bird, Worthy, McHale or Malone, David Robinson or Abdul-Jabbar,"

https://ballislife.com/michael-jordans-1992-playboy-magazine-interview-jealously-racism-fear/

Whole interview is good but I find that one nugget of information relevant to this forum.

Even as late as 1992 where MJ and Hakeem had been in the league for nearly a decade and were nearing their 30s MJ thought Robinson was already better.

Not a bashing thread I just Interesting that the perception that Hakeem had back, then is totally different from the one that he has now

The 94 and 95 playoffs boosted Hakeem's legacy so much and the 95 playoffs did an equivalent amount of damage to DRob's legacy.

The best centers were DRob, Shaq, Hakeem, with Ewing being a step below. Then Hakeem won b2b championships, beat Shaq in the finals (in a sweep) and that was that, the narrative has stuck. But in my mind, DRob never had the supporting cast that Shaq or Hakeem had. Shaq had Penny and Kobe...that is as good as you can ask for....while Hakeem got some great clutch performances from Sam Cassell, Robert Horry, Mario Elie in those playoffs. Without the Kiss of Death shot, we don't have this narrative.....

Or maybe if Robinson were a better postseason performer, we would not have this narrative.

In 1990 he went seven-games again the eventual conference champions as a rookie (and as a second option…). Good stuff. In 1991 he lost 3-1 to a 7-seed, but hey, he at least put up efficient scoring numbers (against a team with no functional frontcourt). And then in 1992 he won DPoY.

After that, he had a down year in 1993. Did fine in the playoffs but nothing to celebrate. 1994 he rebounds and takes on a larger scoring role (much as Hakeem did in 1993), but is upset 1-3 by the Jazz and performs abysmally. In 1995 he wins two series in ugly fashion against .500 teams and then gets thoroughly dominated by Hakeem. And then in 1996 he again struggles against the Jazz.

In his prime, he never beat a 3-SRS team. He lost as the home team four times in six playoff appearances (five in seven if we count 2000 when he was again asked to lead the team) — once as a substantial favourite. That is not all because he was not blessed with Robert Horry or Mario Elie or Kenny Smith, that is because he was not a good playoff performer. Yes, he made his teams look better than they were in the regular season, but if their real postseason level with him was only like a 4-SRS team, how far does that go. At least Garnett can say he beat a 5.4-SRS Kings team. Pre-1994 Hakeem had one of the greatest ever playoff upsets as a sophomore, dominating the defending champion 6.8 SRS Lakers. What can Robinson say?

Are you kidding me? KG had Sam Cassell that season. Who the hell did Robinson have?

Even Karl Malone a known playoff choker had an all time great PG along his side his entire career.

No I don't blame Robinson for being mediocre in the playoffs. He had a bunch of role players to carry his entire career until Tim Duncan arrived and at that point Robinson was washed.

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:

G35 wrote:The 94 and 95 playoffs boosted Hakeem's legacy so much and the 95 playoffs did an equivalent amount of damage to DRob's legacy.

The best centers were DRob, Shaq, Hakeem, with Ewing being a step below. Then Hakeem won b2b championships, beat Shaq in the finals (in a sweep) and that was that, the narrative has stuck. But in my mind, DRob never had the supporting cast that Shaq or Hakeem had. Shaq had Penny and Kobe...that is as good as you can ask for....while Hakeem got some great clutch performances from Sam Cassell, Robert Horry, Mario Elie in those playoffs. Without the Kiss of Death shot, we don't have this narrative.....

The 93-94 Rockets imho weren't anymore or less talented than the Spurs that season. I think that season was more telling than the 95 WCF meeting.

They both met Utah in the playoffs and Robinson was completely taken out of the series....it was even worse individually for him than 95 whereas Hakeem was flat out dominant.

In 1995 Elliott and Johnson gave him help that matched Clyde/Horry and the series was tied 2-2 at one point. But Hakeem absolutely went crazy in games 5 and 6.

Lastly touched on this before....Rodman was a complete "****" in every facet on and off the court save for grabbing a ton of rebounds which really compromised the Spurs. Sad for Robinson to have to deal with that at the absolutely worst possible time.

When I talk about Hakeem's supporting cast, its not just the series versus the Spurs, I'm talking about other series. Like Houston vs the Suns. If you look at those players in the RS vs the PS and they stepped up. These are some points I make about those Rockets:
- The Seattle Supersonics had the Rockets number during those years, if it were not for the Denver Nuggets making one of the biggest upsets in NBA history, I don't think the Rockets can get past the Sonics in 1994
- Kevin Johnson absolutely toasted the Rockets, they had no answer for him, but the Rockets were shooting 3's like they were a modern/current team with Horry/Elie/Maxwell/Cassell all being good 3pt shooters for that era. Hakeem had a lot of space to work in...DRob never enjoyed spacing like that
- I want to highlight Sam Cassell who was a rookie/1st year player during that time. There is a reason he came up with the "big balls" dance. He was a clutch player even as a young guy. In fact, I would say in the 1995 run, I would put Cassell the 3rd best player on the team after Hakeem and Drexler. They do not beat the Suns without Cassell, he provided a clutch shooting element that Kenny Smith didn't bring, imo

I do agree that Rodman sabotaged those Spurs teams, its why the Spurs gave him away for nothing just to get him away from the team. What DRob went through is similar to what Jokic is going through now, the Spurs did not put complementary players around him. But DRob brought GOAT level defense and elite offense, so it should have been easy to find some players that would work. I think the Rodman experience scarred Greg Popovich so much that he would not allow any of that on his teams, that is why he let Stephen Jackson go. Good player, but too temperamental.....

1993Playoffs wrote:

70sFan wrote:

1993Playoffs wrote:
I know you weren’t referring to me, but I feel over the years we’ve overcorrected on Hakeem in my opinion. I don’t think much separates him vs Robinson.

Or we still underestime younger Hakeem seasons.

Do we? He was typically seen as a Barkley level player at the time. I think D-Rob clears that hurdle

Well, remember, "the time" was when people weren't giving bigs DPOY's. Rookie Hakeem immediately saw a bad team become good. Then in his second year he pulled off the biggest upset of the time period(dominating the lakers mid-dynasty) before playing the best maybe anyone has in a first-round exit.

Lots of criticism has been levied at Hakeem as a regular season performer, but those teams generally collapsed without him and the half-season absence of his "co-star" made basically no difference. The team that made the final for example, went 5-5 without and that was possibly the best team he'd have until 94/95.

Notably, when we go by winning as opposed to slashlines, Hakeem, despite a dramatically worse on and off-court situation, kept pace with Jordan/Magic over extended samples, and 92/88 sees a bigger drop off than we see form those two(i'm applying a filter of >10 games):

84-85, rookie hakeem sees a 29 win team become a 48 win team without notable cast change. 86, rockets are 5-5 without, and then are 51 with, and then skyrocket in the postseason notably beating the 61 win lakers in 5 with hakeem's ppg jumping off a cliff. In 87 sampson misses a bunch of games, and there's a coke crisis but the rockets are still able to win more games than a certain chicago guard. 88, rockets play like a 20 win team without and a 45 win team with, and then in 92 the rockets go 2-10 without and win 42 with him and then move to a 55 wins in 93 before b2b titles with 94 and 95.

Looking at longer stretches...

Hakeem is one of a handful of players(post-russell, we're talking Lebron, Kareem, Robinson) to post 25+-win lift multiple times. Worth noting that this is around where RAPM tends to distribute superstar impact to role players. His peak signals are arguably era-best.

Of course, a common knock on Hakeem is his consistency as an RS performer, but even over longer periods, he looks quite good. IIRC, if you use 10-year samples...

Hakeem takes 33-win teams to 48 wins
Jordan takes 38-win teams to 53.5 wins
Magic takes 44-win teams to 59 wins

Keeping in mind that it's harder to lift better teams, Hakeem comes marginally behind Jordan, and slightly more behind Magic, but he's right up there with both.

Ben has his own(presumably more sophisticated) approach which likes Hakeem even better; "Prime WOWY" ranks Olajuwon 10th. Magic and Jordan rank 12th and 20th, respectively. Keep in mind the samples here are much, much smaller, but at least there aren't extraneous distortions to worry about as we may with something like WOWYR

Now consider that Hakeem was probably the best playoff-riser of the 3, and I don't think "Barkley" is the right comparison.

Uh huh. You know, why stop with Hakeem? All this talk about how blessed Hakeem was to have rookie/sophomore Sam Cassell. What did Kareem do without arguably the two greatest point guards in history? What did Shaq do without MVP contending guard talent? With did Russell and Wilt do without hall-of-famers?

If you want to paint this poor Robinson narrative where obviously no one could ever hope to play well in the postseason with *gasp* Sean Elliott and Dennis Rodman and Dale Ellis and Avery Johnson, why not commit. David Robinson, secret greatest centre ever, if only he had Sam Cassell next to him. Hell, even centre is probably too limiting. What Robinson would give to have Pippen, or Horace Grant, or Dennis Rodman. James Worthy or Kevin McHale, hah, instant dynasty. And Mo Williams??? Larry Hughes!?!?!? Only in Robinson’s dreams!

penbeast0 wrote:Worthy over Pippen and over all the higher scoring forwards of the era (Nique, Dantley, King, English, etc.) too.

Guessing that definitely has something to do with the unc connection.