What made Jordan better than Kobe?

[DatAsh]

Speaking strictly offense here. I recognize that Jordan was an all time great defender, and Kobe wasn't, but even just looking at offense, Jordan was better. Kobe had every move that Jordan had, and was basically a carbon copy, so what separates them? They seem to have almost the exact same skillset, but Jordan just executed it more efficiently. Higher volume, and higher TS%.

In terms of TS%, I'd argue Kobe had a very slight advantage, since he grew up (and practiced) in an era that was starting to understand that the 3 was not an inefficient shot(Jordan said "why would I take a 3 when I can take 2 steps in and shoot a closer shot"), yet Jordan still had a higher TS%. Counter to that would be that the 2000-2008 was probably the toughest defensive era since the 60s, but the 90s weren't that much easier(not like today). I know both guys would see a decent TS% boost if they played today, given they'd shoot more 3s and less long 2s, but I'm asking more relative to their own era. Relative to their own era, Jordan still shot more efficiently than Kobe, on higher volume, with seemingly the same skillset.

For disclosure sake, I have Jordan as 2-4 in my GOAT rankings, and Kobe 13-15th.

[HeartBreakKid]

Jordan's hands are BIGGER!!!!


But to answer the question, just because they have the same skill set doesnt mean they're going to be equal. I have the same skill set as Jordan too and I'm not in the NBA.

Jordan is a better shooter and he is more athletic. Maybe he is just a more smart player as well.

[Jaivl]

I have the same skill set as Jordan too and I'm not in the NBA.

DeAndre?

[SilentA]

Well there are different elements, but I would say:

- Ridiculous athleticism made a decent amount of MJ's shots more "open" than Kobe. He was Air Jordan for a reason. The simple way I think of it is what Durant does in the mid range with his height and skill, Jordan sort of did with speed/first step and vertical (getting clear vision of the rim). Kobe wasn't able to self-generate "open" shots as well as both of those guys. Not exactly a perfect analogy but still.
- MJ rim pressure meant more free throw attempts (FTA career average 8.2 vs Kobe's 7.4), with very similar FT% (career average only .2% apart).
- I remember him playing off ball a bit more than Kobe too, but I don't know how much of a difference this makes compared to the above.

I don't know what to say about shot selection and playmaking either because I know MJ early seasons had a lot of bad shots being taken, and Kobe had decent passing in some seasons. Would need to compare their whole careers in more detail. MJ probably had more dunks and layups than Kobe did (partially from off-ball play and athleticism) but I don't know if those kind of stats are available or public.

[HeartBreakKid]

I have the same skill set as Jordan too and I'm not in the NBA.

DeAndre?

hed be harder to copy.

[rand]

Jordan was only more efficient in his athletic prime because he was a clearly superior athlete to Kobe. 2nd threepeat Jordan and Kobe are basically the same player.

[tsherkin]

Jordan was only more efficient in his athletic prime because he was a clearly superior athlete to Kobe. 2nd threepeat Jordan and Kobe are basically the same player.

When Jordan was in his mid-thirties and he was a primary jump shooter, he looked like top-end Kobe in terms of efficiency (particularly in 96). Prior to that, athleticism was a major separating factor between the two, perhaps the most significant separation. I think Jordan was more explosive, a higher leaper and had a stronger base. Bigger hands, better body control. I think strategically, he was better about not taking bad shots early in the clock and adapted better under Phil Jackson as far as when to iso and when to work within the offense, though obviously earlier in his career, that was less true. And of course all of that stands on a foundation of comparison to Kobe's own impressive physical tools, it's not like Bryant was some athletic bum.

The separation between them isn't as large as their reputations and accolades might suggest, though, that's certainly true, and athleticism governed a large chunk of it.

[McBubbles]

Two tiers more explosively athletic than Kobe.

Smarter than Kobe.

Most importantly though, he's just plainly more talented from a dexterity / motor coordination standpoint.

For some reason a lot of people like to trick themselves into believing that athletic traits are only things you can see and everything else is equal amounts hard work. This is nonsense. Skill acquisition, dexterity and motor coordination are 90% of what makes you a professional athlete, (except for sports with little to no skill requirements like sprinting) and though it can be improved, the upper limit is of course genetic. Why is Steph a better 3 point shooter than Seth (and everyone else)? Is it because he works harder at it? Is it because he has better 3 point training technique? Nope, he's better because he just is. MJ was just better at putting the ball in the hoop than Kobe.

To illustrate this, a fun fact; - Wizards MJ was a better mid-range shooter than Kobe ever was in his entire career, including their overlapping careers from 2002-2003, whilst also on an infinitely worse team, so "different eras" isn't an argument, nor is MJ only being more efficient because of his athleticism. He's just more talented.


Kobe
1999 - 7.1 FGA's, 38.2%
2000 - 7.7 FGA's, 39.7%
2001 - 10.3 FGA's, 41.5%
2002 - 9.8 FGA's, 40.9%
2003 - 11.2 FGA's, 41.0%
2004 - 6.1 FGA's, 38.3%
2005 - 6.3 FGA's, 35.5%
2006 - 12.2 FGA's, 42.2% (Peak Volume and Efficiency)
2007 - 9.8 FGA's, 43.9%
2008 - 8.0 FGA's, 38.8%
2009 - 9.3 FGA's, 42.0%
2010 - 8.9 FGA's, 45.1%
2011 - 7.8 FGA's, 41.7%
2012 - 10.3 FGA's, 41.0%
2013 - 6.9 FGA's, 42.3%

MJ
2002 - 15.1 FGA's, 41.3% (Peak Volume and Efficiency)
2003 - 12.9 FGA's, 43.3%

[HeartBreakKid]

Two tiers more explosively athletic than Kobe.

Smarter than Kobe.

Most importantly though, he's just plainly more talented from a dexterity / motor coordination standpoint.

For some reason a lot of people like to trick themselves into believing that athletic traits are only things you can see and everything else is equal amounts hard work. This is nonsense. Skill acquisition, dexterity and motor coordination are 90% of what makes you a professional athlete, (except for sports with little to no skill requirements like sprinting) and though it can be improved, the upper limit is of course genetic. Why is Steph a better 3 point shooter than Seth (and everyone else)? Is it because he works harder at it? Is it because he has better 3 point training technique? Nope, he's better because he just is. MJ was just better at putting the ball in the hoop than Kobe.

To illustrate this, a fun fact; - Wizards MJ was a better mid-range shooter than Kobe ever was in his entire career, including their overlapping careers from 2002-2003, whilst also on an infinitely worse team, so "different eras" isn't an argument, nor is MJ only being more efficient because of his athleticism. He's just more talented.


Kobe
1999 - 7.1 FGA's, 38.2%
2000 - 7.7 FGA's, 39.7%
2001 - 10.3 FGA's, 41.5%
2002 - 9.8 FGA's, 40.9%
2003 - 11.2 FGA's, 41.0%
2004 - 6.1 FGA's, 38.3%
2005 - 6.3 FGA's, 35.5%
2006 - 12.2 FGA's, 42.2% (Peak Volume and Efficiency)
2007 - 9.8 FGA's, 43.9%
2008 - 8.0 FGA's, 38.8%
2009 - 9.3 FGA's, 42.0%
2010 - 8.9 FGA's, 45.1%
2011 - 7.8 FGA's, 41.7%
2012 - 10.3 FGA's, 41.0%
2013 - 6.9 FGA's, 42.3%

MJ
2002 - 15.1 FGA's, 41.3% (Peak Volume and Efficiency)
2003 - 12.9 FGA's, 43.3%

100%

[cupcakesnake]

Bigger, stronger, longer, quicker, faster, bigger hands, better at shooting.

Jordan generated greater seperation, much easier than Kobe could. Yes their fadeaways looked similar but think about how often young Jordan didn't even need to fade; he could just quickly elevate over his defender. He put way more pressure on the rim as well. That threat unlocked more offense.

Kobe spent much of offensive output using Jordan's counters. Jordan used his counters when the defense took better stuff away.

[tsherkin]

Kobe spent much of offensive output using Jordan's counters. Jordan used his counters when the defense took better stuff away.

This is great phrasing. Jordan got to his spots and got to what he wanted a lot. Defenses tended to let Kobe shoot himself in the foot under the old "never interrupt your opponent when he's making a mistake" principle. Sometimes, Kobe got absurdly hot and then, welp, you usually lost because he was still great. But Jordan was better, particularly in his athletic prime of course, at getting what he wanted and what he wanted being good looks.

[Peregrine01]

Kobe had a great way of making things a lot harder. Check out his whole Details segment where he basically says: "to become truly unstoppable you gotta pull up on a dime, kill your dribble, pump fake and reverse pivot into a contested 18 foot mid-range jumper". There was probably no better player at doing a move like that but it doesn't mean that it's effective.

Jordan was either a lot better able or simply more willing to get to easier looks.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think its sort of like the difference between a real panther and a robotic panther programmed to be act like a real one. There are certain innate instincts and things the real panther will always do better. The athletic/hands/strength difference definitely being part of it which is one of the main things Phil mentions when he compares them. There was nothing defenders could do when MJ got it going and you see this in the playoffs the most where MJ had 18 50 pt games to Kobe's 1 and there's probably a similar gap in 40 pt games. MJ was just harder to stop and more creative in how he could finish around the rim.

[1993Playoffs]

MJ was a lot better defensively as well.

[rk2023]

Offense:

Much better athleticism (at-least that’s the root “cause” I would cite) propelled Jordan to reach and consistently sustain a level of offensive efficacy Kobe never was able to maintain. Referring to 88-93 the most so.

On a more film-specific / granular level, Jordan was frankly better at:
• Blowing by defenders & Leveraging a first step
• Unlocking finishing angles
• Creating separation
• Buying himself hang-time
• Contorting his body into more ‘shapes’

Someone mentioned Kobe may have had more counters, and that being due to Jordan having the athleticism to not be in a position to need such counters as frequently. I find this to be a good summary as well.

Defense:

Once again, I see the better athleticism being a reason why I’d take Jordan. It’s close at their very best on defense (99/00 Kobe & 88/89 Jordan - albeit this was pre MVP load Kobe), and I give Jordan the off-ball defense advantage because of his cat-like reflexes and instinct combined with his physical profile. With that said, the former did cause some questionable tendencies (gambling on steals) that bled some value. I see young Kobe as the more fundamentally sound defender, but lean Jordan overall. Post 2001 Kobe doesn’t quite stack up to Jordan’s true prime (88-96) defensive value FWIW.

[Masigond]

Better hands, slightly better athleticism and way better basketball IQ in terms of playing up to one's strengths. At least in his prime, not so much as a Wizard.

[tsherkin]

Someone mentioned Kobe may have had more counters, and that being due to Jordan having the athleticism to not be in a position to need such counters as frequently. I find this to be a good summary as well

I think Kobe suffered from the same sort of thing Melo did, being overly concerned with having "moves" and showing them to display proficiency. People rag endlessly on Lebron for his ability to just freight train his way to the basket (and Shaq before him), and it drove Wilt to play a game that was not as good as he could have been in his own time to one degree or another. I don't know if Kobe cared because of how people talked, per se, because that wasn't really his MO. He did his own thing. I think he cared because he'd grown up believing that was what meant you were good, and it's an errant perception. He spent too much time focusing on breadth and not enough on maximizing what he had, IMHO. He also put a HUGE focus on isolation play as an indication of dominance, and while he was a brilliant iso player, that was not the best way to run in team ball.

[henshao]

oftentimes the pioneer of the style is better than the student, because the pioneer understands why

[ShaqAttac]

this thread readin like some bit outta first take

[KobesScarf]

MJ was way more athletic and much more decisive.

Kobe was a better shooter and had the best footwork ever