RealGM

Who do you think was more of a Center type of player

In their own era, Duncan.

In todays era, Duncan.

Is this really a question?

Giannis drives and handles too much to look "more like a center" than someone like Tim Duncan. It isn't a commentary on efficacy as players, of course, but just from the aesthetic perspective.

That said, Giannis defends well around the rim and he certainly cuts well in the paint, around dribble penetration and so forth. He's an interesting blend of perimeter and classic post.

Giannis has played perimeter positions since age 14 and been a shared primary ball-handler since then as well.

I suppose you could make the Magic Johnson argument. He's a PG on offense and guards PFs on defense. Giannis does guard a lot of PF/C's on defense. So what position is he? Point-PF? Sorta like Magic Johnson?

I would say he's more Magic Johnson than he is Tim Duncan in terms of game. FT% shooting is similar but that's about it.

pdevos wrote:Giannis has played perimeter positions since age 14 and been a shared primary ball-handler since then as well.

I suppose you could make the Magic Johnson argument. He's a PG on offense and guards PFs on defense. Giannis does guard a lot of PF/C's on defense. So what position is he? Point-PF? Sorta like Magic Johnson?

I would say he's more Magic Johnson than he is Tim Duncan in terms of game. FT% shooting is similar but that's about it.

He does best with a real PG next to him, though. He handles well for his size and he can pass pretty well for, again, a dude his size, but he's not really a PG. Magic Johnson isnt quite right. More like... Danny Manning, though with an immense gap in talent and impact favoring Giannis, of course. Not a perfect analogy, but more that he's a big dude who has perimeter moves than an actual tall PG.

Trick question?

tsherkin wrote:

pdevos wrote:Giannis has played perimeter positions since age 14 and been a shared primary ball-handler since then as well.

I suppose you could make the Magic Johnson argument. He's a PG on offense and guards PFs on defense. Giannis does guard a lot of PF/C's on defense. So what position is he? Point-PF? Sorta like Magic Johnson?

I would say he's more Magic Johnson than he is Tim Duncan in terms of game. FT% shooting is similar but that's about it.

He does best with a real PG next to him, though. He handles well for his size and he can pass pretty well for, again, a dude his size, but he's not really a PG. Magic Johnson isnt quite right. More like... Danny Manning, though with an immense gap in talent and impact favoring Giannis, of course. Not a perfect analogy, but more that he's a big dude who has perimeter moves than an actual tall PG.

Yup! Definitely could NOT handle FT PG duties.

I like the Manning pick directionally. I also like Chris Webber and Gerald Wallace and to be frank, a more aggressive, longer Draymond Green also makes sense for me.

Duncan would guard shaq 70% of the time even with another big body on the spurs.

Giannis runs away from having to guard Embiid. Letting Lopez do the dirty work.

That’s really the difference.

Giannis is a fantastic help defender. He’s simply not a bruiser who can hang with guys bigger than him.

Duncan is more versatile. He can bang with centers or power forwards (of his era). So it would be a little more interesting if he could guard smaller guys who play the 4 these days

pdevos wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

pdevos wrote:Giannis has played perimeter positions since age 14 and been a shared primary ball-handler since then as well.

I suppose you could make the Magic Johnson argument. He's a PG on offense and guards PFs on defense. Giannis does guard a lot of PF/C's on defense. So what position is he? Point-PF? Sorta like Magic Johnson?

I would say he's more Magic Johnson than he is Tim Duncan in terms of game. FT% shooting is similar but that's about it.

He does best with a real PG next to him, though. He handles well for his size and he can pass pretty well for, again, a dude his size, but he's not really a PG. Magic Johnson isnt quite right. More like... Danny Manning, though with an immense gap in talent and impact favoring Giannis, of course. Not a perfect analogy, but more that he's a big dude who has perimeter moves than an actual tall PG.

Yup! Definitely could NOT handle FT PG duties.

I like the Manning pick directionally. I also like Chris Webber and Gerald Wallace and to be frank, a more aggressive, longer Draymond Green also makes sense for me.

Maybe GSW Webber before he was a wussy. He slashed aggressively then but had passing skills. Giannis is a LOT better than Webber ever was. Much more committed to being physical. They dont look too similar at all.

Draymond is so afraid to pull a shot that he cant really ve part of this discussion. Giannis drives so aggressively.

tsherkin wrote:

Maybe GSW Webber before he was a wussy. He slashed aggressively then but had passing skills. Giannis is a LOT better than Webber ever was. Much more committed to being physical. They dont look too similar at all.

Draymond is so afraid to pull a shot that he cant really ve part of this discussion. Giannis drives so aggressively.

Not sure what you mean by "before he was a wussy." Mentally, Webber had the rep from his choke job in college. Physically, as a rook he was still pretty skinny and easy to push around; his effort defensively did deteriorate from when he came to Washington to when he left, didn't see him enough with the Warriors to really say. And he always had the mental choke/soft/not living up to his potential rep even in Sacramento.

penbeast0 wrote:Not sure what you mean by "before he was a wussy." Mentally, Webber had the rep from his choke job in college. Physically, as a rook he was still pretty skinny and easy to push around; his effort defensively did deteriorate from when he came to Washington to when he left and he always had the mental choke/soft/not living up to his potential rep even in Sacramento.

I was mostly being facetious, but otherwise referring to his actual willingness to slash from triple-threat, which was greater in his earlier career than it was with Sacramento. I don't have a lot of respect for Webber. He was very much overrated in his time, and I laugh a lot when, as an analyst, he talks about post play.

Duncan is a center. Antetokounmpo is a power forward. You should be able to figure out the answer from there.

Tim Ducan was a center

Duncan does his best work starting as close to the rim as possible with the ball. Whether that's in the low post, driving from the high post, or as a roll man. On defense he does his best work as a rim protector and deterrent inside.

Giannis does his best work on offense in transition and handling the ball from outside of the 3 point line and driving. Defensively he's most deadly as a horizontal defender as opposed to a vertical one (where he's still top notch to be sure). His movement, versatility, foot speed, range, etc are more important than camping him in the lane.

Ideally I want 4 out on offense next to both of them, but I want them starting from very different spots , and I want them in a very different role on defense.

kuclas wrote:Duncan would guard shaq 70% of the time even with another big body on the spurs.

Giannis runs away from having to guard Embiid. Letting Lopez do the dirty work.

That’s really the difference.

Giannis is a fantastic help defender. He’s simply not a bruiser who can hang with guys bigger than him.

Duncan is more versatile. He can bang with centers or power forwards (of his era). So it would be a little more interesting if he could guard smaller guys who play the 4 these days

No difference than Kevin Garnett when he was with Minnesota. He never wanted to guard Shaq and always deferred to Nazr Mohammed or Raaaasho Nesterovic. Its funny, what is the criteria to be labeled a center...height? Weight? Who you guard on defense? Duncan was very versatile...he was able to guard Shaq and guard a Dirk, Rasheed or Webber. There are few players I can think of that could do that.....

G35 wrote:

kuclas wrote:Duncan would guard shaq 70% of the time even with another big body on the spurs.

Giannis runs away from having to guard Embiid. Letting Lopez do the dirty work.

That’s really the difference.

Giannis is a fantastic help defender. He’s simply not a bruiser who can hang with guys bigger than him.

Duncan is more versatile. He can bang with centers or power forwards (of his era). So it would be a little more interesting if he could guard smaller guys who play the 4 these days

No difference than Kevin Garnett when he was with Minnesota. He never wanted to guard Shaq and always deferred to Nazr Mohammed or Raaaasho Nesterovic. Its funny, what is the criteria to be labeled a center...height? Weight? Who you guard on defense? Duncan was very versatile...he was able to guard Shaq and guard a Dirk, Rasheed or Webber. There are few players I can think of that could do that.....

But that's because Garnett would spend possessions helping on both Kobe AND Shaq, within seconds of each other.

I posted about this extensively in the 2017 GOAT project with images/videos.

You also love Garnett more than anyone I have ever encountered. You are the first person to mention Garnett in this thread. The person you quoted didn't even mention Garnett. Get off his D.

Colbinii wrote:You also love Garnett more than anyone I have ever encountered. You are the first person to mention Garnett in this thread. The person you quoted didn't even mention Garnett. Get off his D.

C'mon, man. Let's not start that here, all right?

tsherkin wrote:

Colbinii wrote:You also love Garnett more than anyone I have ever encountered. You are the first person to mention Garnett in this thread. The person you quoted didn't even mention Garnett. Get off his D.

C'mon, man. Let's not start that here, all right?

I know better than to feed the troll.

# Teammates, His Coach, other Coaches call Duncan a Center

Duncan definitely was on the low block. And when he played with David, David often was on the elbow/high post. It was a BIG DEAL for decade that Duncan could get votes to make the All-Star team regardless of if it was as a C or PF.

The semi irony is, Duncan didn't guard the best opponent big, but rather Robinson, Rasho, Rose, Elson, McDyess, Oberto, Muhammad, etc did. Didn't matter if it was the PF... watch when playing Karl Malone, Chris Webber, and Dirk Nowitzki. He'll take Foster/Ostertag, Vlade, Bradley/LaFrentz/Dampier. Or if the best off big was the Center as Duncan also didn't guard Hakeem or Shaq. The one PF he did seem to guard a lot was KG after the Wolves lost Gugliotta.

# Duncan's teammate Steve Kerr, says Duncan is a Center, plays low block:
https://www.thescore.com/nba/news/1058460

"I think he's a center," Kerr said. "The only reason he's called a power forward is because he started his career playing next to David [Robinson], but once David left, Timmy was down on the block all the time.

# The "Duncan Dilemma", A center who gets votes as a PF, Popovich quote, Duncan, Center, for the past 15 years:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160720163549/http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2012/10/24/duncan-dilemma-cited-in-all-star-ballot-change/

Duncan's Coach Gregg Popovich seemed to acknowledge the charade on the eve of last year’s playoff series against Utah. When asked who the Spurs would start at center, Popovich said, “Tim Duncan, like we have for the last 15 years.”

# NBA moves Duncan to Forward, boosting his chances to make All-Star Team:
https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=3122850

The NBA shifted Tim Duncan from Center to Forward on its All-Star ballot on Wednesday, boosting the San Antonio player's chances of making his ninth consecutive start.

The seven-member media panel that selected the players for the original ballot had Duncan as a center, even though he has always been listed as a forward. He was voted to start for the Western Conference each of the last eight seasons, but that streak would have been in jeopardy if he was a center.

# NBA.com: WILL TIM DUNCAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF HIS RULE FOR ALL-STAR START?
https://web.archive.org/web/20151030211540/http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/11/11/will-tim-duncan-take-advantage-of-his-rule-for-all-star-start/

For years, the San Antonio Spurs’ mellow superstar has masqueraded as a power forward really by name only. When Yao Ming entered the league in 2002-03, he generated such an enormous number votes from his home country that there was no way Duncan, who broke in with the Spurs alongside 10-time All-Star center David Robinson, would have ever started an All-Star game if classified as a center. As a power forward, Duncan started 12 consecutive All-Star games from 2000 to 2011.

# David Aldridge, Spurs definitely believe Tim is a Center:
https://web.archive.org/web/20121027000539/https://www.nba.com/2012/news/10/23/all-star-centers-ballot/index.html

For years, for example, the Spurs have listed Tim Duncan as a power forward, even though everyone on earth knew he was their starting center. And so when it came to All-Star balloting, Duncan would take up a forward spot in a very crowded field of Western Conference stars instead of his logical spot in the middle.

# Shot Profiles of PFs vs Cs

If you look at the PF's of the same time that Duncan played, they all have very different shot profiles. Duncan's shot profile follows similar most of the NBA centers while he played Centers and 3 "bruiser" PFs (Boozer, ZBo, Brand) of his era.

PFs: Avg Shot distance, % shots <10 ft:

Dirk: 14-16 ft, 22% of shots <10 ft
TMurphy: 12-16 ft, 36% of shots <10 ft
Rasheed: 11-14 ft, 39% of shots < 10 ft
Googs: 11-13 ft, 41% of shots <10 ft
KG: 11-13 ft, 41% of shots <10 ft
Jamison: 11-13 ft, 49% of shots <10 ft
Antoine: 10-13 ft, 57% of shots < 10 ft
Malone: 10-11 ft, 43% of shots <10 ft
Webber: 10-11 ft, 50% of shots <10 ft
Bosh: 9-13 ft, 42% of shots <10 ft
McDyess: 9-10 ft, 42% of shots <10 ft
Odom: 8-12 ft, 60% of shots <10 ft

Duncan: 7-8 ft, 65% of shots <10 ft <=======
Boozer: 7-8 ft, 59% of shots <10 ft
ZBo: 7-8 ft, 64% of shots <10 ft
Brand: 6-9 ft, 57% of shots <10 ft

Centers: Avg Shot distance, % shots <10 ft:

DMC: 8-11 ft, 64% of shots <10 ft
Hakeem: 8-9 ft, 55% of shots <10 ft
Ewing: 8-9 ft, 61% of shots <10 ft
Divac: 7-10 ft, 71% of shots <10 ft
DavidRobinson: 7-8 ft, 62% of shots <10 ft
Duncan: 7-8 ft, 65% of shots <10 ft <=======
J. O'Neal: 6-9 ft, 61% of shots <10 ft
Kaman: 6-9 ft, 69% of shots <10 ft
Amare: 6-8 ft, 65% of shots <10 ft
Pau: 6-8 ft, 65% of shots <10 ft
Yao: 6-7 ft, 70% of shots <10 ft
Camby: 5-10 ft, 62% of shots <10ft
Dikembe: 5-6 ft, 86% of shots <10 ft
BenWallace: 4-5 ft, 85% of shots <10 ft
Shaq: 3-6 ft, 92% of shots <10 ft
Dwight: 3-4 ft, 94% of shots <10 ft