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Lets talk strictly IQ

I feel like the results speak for themselves to some degree. No matter how good CP3's teams were I never expected them to win. That's obviously not all on his bbiq but its part of it.

LeBron can take over a game and become a score-first player if the situation calls. CP3 could never.

CodeBreaker wrote:LeBron can take over a game and become a score-first player if the situation calls. CP3 could never.

CP3 did that multiple times in his career.

This also has nothing to do with IQ.

Colbinii wrote:

CodeBreaker wrote:LeBron can take over a game and become a score-first player if the situation calls. CP3 could never.

CP3 did that multiple times in his career.

This also has nothing to do with IQ.

You're up 2-0 in the Finals, and all you gotta do is take over.. and still wasn't able to for 4 straight games.
He crumbled when it matters. He's a big time choker. That's mental toughness and it's gotta do with IQ.

And CP3 did that multiple times in his career too.

CodeBreaker wrote:

Colbinii wrote:

CodeBreaker wrote:LeBron can take over a game and become a score-first player if the situation calls. CP3 could never.

CP3 did that multiple times in his career.

This also has nothing to do with IQ.

You're up 2-0 in the Finals, and all you gotta do is take over.. and still wasn't able to for 4 straight games.
He crumbled when it matters. He's a big time choker. That's mental toughness and it's gotta do with IQ.

And CP3 did that multiple times in his career too.

You said CP3 could never become a score-first player. The fact he had done that multiple times in his career--specifically in his prime--shows you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Cool, post-prime CP3 couldn't take over against one of the best perimeters defender in the past 20 years in Jrue Holiday.

Colbinii wrote:

CodeBreaker wrote:

Colbinii wrote:
CP3 did that multiple times in his career.

This also has nothing to do with IQ.

You're up 2-0 in the Finals, and all you gotta do is take over.. and still wasn't able to for 4 straight games.
He crumbled when it matters. He's a big time choker. That's mental toughness and it's gotta do with IQ.

And CP3 did that multiple times in his career too.

You said CP3 could never become a score-first player. The fact he had done that multiple times in his career--specifically in his prime--shows you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Cool, post-prime CP3 couldn't take over against one of the best perimeters defender in the past 20 years in Jrue Holiday.

Yea like when he choked another 3-1 lead against the Rockets? Yea call that post-prime CP3 too.

Again, he had done that multiple times in his career.

CodeBreaker wrote:

Colbinii wrote:

CodeBreaker wrote:You're up 2-0 in the Finals, and all you gotta do is take over.. and still wasn't able to for 4 straight games.
He crumbled when it matters. He's a big time choker. That's mental toughness and it's gotta do with IQ.

And CP3 did that multiple times in his career too.

You said CP3 could never become a score-first player. The fact he had done that multiple times in his career--specifically in his prime--shows you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Cool, post-prime CP3 couldn't take over against one of the best perimeters defender in the past 20 years in Jrue Holiday.

Yea like when he choked another 3-1 lead against the Rockets? Yea call that post-prime CP3 too.

Again, he had done that multiple times in his career.

Okay? That doesn't disprove your original statement. Your original statement is factually incorrect.

How are we measuring IQ and to what extent does this override physical and skill advantages? More importantly, how much does it matter when assessing the overall package?

CodeBreaker wrote:LeBron can take over a game and become a score-first player if the situation calls. CP3 could never.

Nothing to do with IQ and CP3 can take over games with scoring too.

LeBron for me. This is very hard to quantify and 99th+ percentile ‘BBIQ’ (any sub-definition of the term IQ for that matter) is a matter of splitting hairs FWIW.

I think sometimes CP3’s IQ and over-thinking plays (manifests in being a more conservative passer compared to a Magic or Nash level Offensive player for example) may get the best of him.

Both have been consistent top three guys in that regard for a decade now. This is all abstract of course, but I do feel like Lebron has better play recognition (maybe more a capacity of memory, but memory helps) and a better in-game intuition, i.e. awareness of how the game is developing and what is needed from him.

CodeBreaker wrote:You're up 2-0 in the Finals, and all you gotta do is take over.. and still wasn't able to for 4 straight games.
He crumbled when it matters. He's a big time choker. That's mental toughness and it's gotta do with IQ.

And CP3 did that multiple times in his career too.

What a STUPID post.

He's 5'11 and injury prone. And he was 37 in that series. That has nothing to do with IQ.

And he still had 32 points in one of those finals games and 26 points in game 6. Both were score first games.

Its quite tiring how often Chris Paul feels the need to incite the announcer telling the audience he's smart by intentionally stopping in front of a guy to bait a foul and then it eventually rankles his teammates sooner or later and bites him in the ass. Anecdotes of LeBron's intelligence on the other hand come from players who compete against him, like Derozan saying how LeBron was pointing him to his spot on defensive schemes while playing for Toronto. This isn't close.

If they switched bodies, the gap would be wider than it was during their actual careers. Take that for what you will.

None of the arguments in this thread have anything to do with basketball IQ. These two are both at the very top echelon of basketball IQ's. You can't really say further than that. They are both in the god tier alongside guys like Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kobe, Russell, Kidd, Oscar, etc

Don't really know if I have an opinion on this but I'll say one thing... Lebron (to my knowledge) has never tried to bait a foul in his own backcourt in the final minute of a playoff game with a chance to win a series. Not sure if that's really BB IQ but maybe it's something

LeBron’s BBIQ comes out more on a game planning, scouting and long term pattern recognition level.

Chris Paul’s BBIQ is much more microscopic and dictated by little details that show up all over the court, all the time and allows him to really overproduce on impact because he just knows the exact timing of so many different on-court scenarios on both ends.

CP3 doesn’t really miss what’s in front him in the moment.

Thousands and thousands of different approaches, tendencies, habits of defenders thrown at him and his TOV rate has been consistently low. That’s just a guy who is aware of the court every single time down without fail.

However that does tend to get Chris Paul into being kind of robotic in his tendencies and unchanging, like someone mentioned him trying draw a foul in the backcourt, which I’ve seen him successfully do before and after, but he put risk/reward aside and tried to game some extra value even when it wasn’t needed.

So it’s more narrow than LeBron’s approach of feeling things out over the course of a game, season, or series and then mastering a specific action, game plan, style and dominating with it on either end.

As far as raw natural understanding of how to play basketball, I don’t see many ways to be smarter than Chris Paul, but as far as learning how to dictate games and matchups, I’ve never seen anyone better than LeBron.

CodeBreaker wrote:

Colbinii wrote:

CodeBreaker wrote:LeBron can take over a game and become a score-first player if the situation calls. CP3 could never.

CP3 did that multiple times in his career.

This also has nothing to do with IQ.

You're up 2-0 in the Finals, and all you gotta do is take over.. and still wasn't able to for 4 straight games.
He crumbled when it matters. He's a big time choker. That's mental toughness and it's gotta do with IQ.

And CP3 did that multiple times in his career too.

Gee a 5'11 PG vs a 6'9 behemoth with arguably the best physical talent in the history of the nba.

I wonder what's the difference between the two? Oh right mental toughness.
From a guy who had the biggest chokejobs all time against the Mavs. The difference is mental toughness not the huge gulf in physical ability.

Slava wrote:Its quite tiring how often Chris Paul feels the need to incite the announcer telling the audience he's smart by intentionally stopping in front of a guy to bait a foul and then it eventually rankles his teammates sooner or later and bites him in the ass. Anecdotes of LeBron's intelligence on the other hand come from players who compete against him, like Derozan saying how LeBron was pointing him to his spot on defensive schemes while playing for Toronto. This isn't close.

Yeah, I'm with this. Lebron is essentially our era's Jerry Lucas in that regard, which is a little wild.