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Yes, topic #9154 on Jimmy Butler

Peak vs Peak

Career vs Career(thus far)

Better build around player?

I'd rather build around Butler than Iverson. Then as now.

Butler
Butler
Butler

Butler and it's not terribly close due primarily to (a) efficiency, (b) defense, (c) attitude, (d) playoff performance. I'd even take Butler for regular season peak/career/build.

Butler in every situation. Better D more willing playmaker can scale up his scoring efficiently holds people accountable

I'd rather build around Iverson. Jimmy Butler is a decent draw with good social media, media savvy, coffee company, etc. But Iverson was a cultural icon. He had some of the best commercials ever and was top-tier influencing young players and student-athletes of the time who wanted to emulate his style at PG/SG. Guy was just a mega-draw during his prime and even now garners respect and admiration from the non-front office basketball community.

Iverson also had the better career. They both made one NBA Finals. Iverson won an MVP and four scoring titles, which puts him in elite company.

Butler is obviously the superior on-court basketball player, whether we're assessing peak, prime...maybe even longevity at this point.

RCM88x wrote:Butler
Butler
Butler

+1

ronnymac2 wrote:I'd rather build around Iverson. Jimmy Butler is a decent draw with good social media, media savvy, coffee company, etc. But Iverson was a cultural icon. He had some of the best commercials ever and was top-tier influencing young players and student-athletes of the time who wanted to emulate his style at PG/SG. Guy was just a mega-draw during his prime and even now garners respect and admiration from the non-front office basketball community.

Iverson also had the better career. They both made one NBA Finals. Iverson won an MVP and four scoring titles, which puts him in elite company.

Butler is obviously the superior on-court basketball player, whether we're assessing peak, prime...maybe even longevity at this point.

I mean Butler's career is still going strong but ok. Iverson may be the bigger draw but Butler is the better winner and can boast of uplifting each cast he's played with since his 3rd year. Can't say the same with Iverson whose game significantly declined once leaving Philly and was just a poor fit with other ball dominant wings.

ronnymac2 wrote:Iverson also had the better career. They both made one NBA Finals. Iverson won an MVP and four scoring titles, which puts him in elite company.

Sure, he has an MVP he didn't really deserve and several scoring titles. The latter is a rare achievement, but how much do we care, particularly given the inefficacy of that volume scoring? Scoring titles in 99, 01, 02 and 05. rTS of -0.3, 0, -3.1 and +0.3. Team offenses which were 23rd (of 29), 13th, 23rd and 24th in the league. How much do we really want to celebrate inefficient volume chuckery as a major achievement compared to what Butler has done? This isn't like Gervin or Wilt or Jordan or KD in terms of quality of scoring.

Eagle4 wrote:

ronnymac2 wrote:I'd rather build around Iverson. Jimmy Butler is a decent draw with good social media, media savvy, coffee company, etc. But Iverson was a cultural icon. He had some of the best commercials ever and was top-tier influencing young players and student-athletes of the time who wanted to emulate his style at PG/SG. Guy was just a mega-draw during his prime and even now garners respect and admiration from the non-front office basketball community.

Iverson also had the better career. They both made one NBA Finals. Iverson won an MVP and four scoring titles, which puts him in elite company.

Butler is obviously the superior on-court basketball player, whether we're assessing peak, prime...maybe even longevity at this point.

I mean Butler's career is still going strong but ok. Iverson may be the bigger draw but Butler is the better winner and can boast of uplifting each cast he's played with since his 3rd year. Can't say the same with Iverson whose game significantly declined once leaving Philly and was just a poor fit with other ball dominant wings.

Better winner? Do you mean good sportsmanship, or do you mean he's won more?

The rest of your post is us agreeing that "Butler is obviously the superior on-court basketball player." Though one quibble would be that Iverson only ever played with one sort of ball-dominant wing in Melo, for a short time, and they did pretty well as a duo.

tsherkin wrote:

ronnymac2 wrote:Iverson also had the better career. They both made one NBA Finals. Iverson won an MVP and four scoring titles, which puts him in elite company.

Sure, he has an MVP he didn't really deserve and several scoring titles. The latter is a rare achievement, but how much do we care, particularly given the inefficacy of that volume scoring? Scoring titles in 99, 01, 02 and 05. rTS of -0.3, 0, -3.1 and +0.3. Team offenses which were 23rd (of 29), 13th, 23rd and 24th in the league. How much do we really want to celebrate inefficient volume chuckery as a major achievement compared to what Butler has done? This isn't like Gervin or Wilt or Jordan or KD in terms of quality of scoring.

I don't make the rules and I don't give out awards. All I know is Iverson has an MVP and four scoring titles in a trophy case somewhere so long as he hasn't had to auction anything away.

As I said to the other poster above, it seems we are in agreement that "Butler is obviously the superior on-court basketball player."

ronnymac2 wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

ronnymac2 wrote:Iverson also had the better career. They both made one NBA Finals. Iverson won an MVP and four scoring titles, which puts him in elite company.

Sure, he has an MVP he didn't really deserve and several scoring titles. The latter is a rare achievement, but how much do we care, particularly given the inefficacy of that volume scoring? Scoring titles in 99, 01, 02 and 05. rTS of -0.3, 0, -3.1 and +0.3. Team offenses which were 23rd (of 29), 13th, 23rd and 24th in the league. How much do we really want to celebrate inefficient volume chuckery as a major achievement compared to what Butler has done? This isn't like Gervin or Wilt or Jordan or KD in terms of quality of scoring.

I don't make the rules and I don't give out awards. All I know is Iverson has an MVP and four scoring titles in a trophy case somewhere so long as he hasn't had to auction anything away.

As I said to the other poster above, it seems we are in agreement that "Butler is obviously the superior on-court basketball player."

Jimmy Butler probably has more money than Allen Iverson, wouldn't that mean his career is better?

HeartBreakKid wrote:

ronnymac2 wrote:

tsherkin wrote:
Sure, he has an MVP he didn't really deserve and several scoring titles. The latter is a rare achievement, but how much do we care, particularly given the inefficacy of that volume scoring? Scoring titles in 99, 01, 02 and 05. rTS of -0.3, 0, -3.1 and +0.3. Team offenses which were 23rd (of 29), 13th, 23rd and 24th in the league. How much do we really want to celebrate inefficient volume chuckery as a major achievement compared to what Butler has done? This isn't like Gervin or Wilt or Jordan or KD in terms of quality of scoring.

I don't make the rules and I don't give out awards. All I know is Iverson has an MVP and four scoring titles in a trophy case somewhere so long as he hasn't had to auction anything away.

As I said to the other poster above, it seems we are in agreement that "Butler is obviously the superior on-court basketball player."

Jimmy Butler probably has more money than Allen Iverson, wouldn't that mean his career is better?

Butler definitely has more money than Iverson. Iverson went broke years ago.

Iverson career (for now), Butler the rest.

Jimmy.
Jimmy (by this point).
And Jimmy.

Respectively.....

HeartBreakKid wrote:

ronnymac2 wrote:

tsherkin wrote:
Sure, he has an MVP he didn't really deserve and several scoring titles. The latter is a rare achievement, but how much do we care, particularly given the inefficacy of that volume scoring? Scoring titles in 99, 01, 02 and 05. rTS of -0.3, 0, -3.1 and +0.3. Team offenses which were 23rd (of 29), 13th, 23rd and 24th in the league. How much do we really want to celebrate inefficient volume chuckery as a major achievement compared to what Butler has done? This isn't like Gervin or Wilt or Jordan or KD in terms of quality of scoring.

I don't make the rules and I don't give out awards. All I know is Iverson has an MVP and four scoring titles in a trophy case somewhere so long as he hasn't had to auction anything away.

As I said to the other poster above, it seems we are in agreement that "Butler is obviously the superior on-court basketball player."

Jimmy Butler probably has more money than Allen Iverson, wouldn't that mean his career is better?

It's correct to bring up money when evaluating career success, but I think Iverson would still have him beat in career earnings considering endorsements. Butler is likely more fiscally responsible with the money he earns from his basketball career than Iverson - probably not a bar too high to eclipse - but that just makes him better at being a mature adult and abiding by a penny saved is a penny earned.

Disrespectful to Jimmy

rate_ wrote:Disrespectful to Jimmy

Not really. Particulars of Iverson's career and stats aside, he was still a very good player, particularly at his peak. An MVP (whether you like the win or not, he was clearly deserving of being in the race that year) and one of the few guys in league history with his collection of scoring titles, all on top of being one of the most stylistically influential players in league history.

EDIT: Also a tough little bastard and an incredible athlete from a cardiovascular and fast-twitch muscle POV.

tsherkin wrote:

rate_ wrote:Disrespectful to Jimmy

Not really. Particulars of Iverson's career and stats aside, he was still a very good player, particularly at his peak. An MVP (whether you like the win or not, he was clearly deserving of being in the race that year) and one of the few guys in league history with his collection of scoring titles, all on top of being one of the most stylistically influential players in league history.

EDIT: Also a tough little bastard and an incredible athlete from a cardiovascular and fast-twitch muscle POV.

He was an inefficient chucker and a poor defender. He didn't impact winning at all. Even during his MVP season, the team's identity was on the defensive end (TOP 5 defensive team) which gave Iverson the freedom to chuck, sometimes to the team's detriment.

Jimmy is the complete opposite, and it's being magnified and clearer in his Heat tenure.

rate_ wrote:He was an inefficient chucker and a poor defender. He didn't impact winning at all. Even during his MVP season, the team's identity was on the defensive end (TOP 5 defensive team) which gave Iverson the freedom to chuck, sometimes to the team's detriment.

That is his reputation, yes. And I'm not a big Iverson fan by any means, but he also had a spartan offensive environment to work in so that he could have that defensive squad after laboring on a team that was just generally mismanaged prior to that. He looked better in a more contemporary rules environment in Philly and then in Denver for a bit before age and health and such caught up to him.

Butler is very good and there's a reasonable pro-Butler argument in a head-to-head argument, but the idea that it's disrespectful to compare them isn't really a legitimate platform.