RealGM

Better Peak

Kawhi

I think Kawhi's peak is in that rarified air, where he can elevate an offense to championship heights, while still providing good impact on the defensive side of the ball, such as peak Lebron/Peak Bird, that I think it is fine to take him over Giannis assuming health.

I think people would say Giannis' peak was somewhere between 19-22 (23 is comparable to those years as well).

In that time span, Kawhi is #1 in 19-22 RAPM and was #1 in DRIP (multi-year metric that is forward looking in projecting performance).

Keep in mind that these metrics are mainly RS-based, so there is evidence suggesting that Kawhi on a per-possession basis in the RS was providing underrated impact that is among the impact-titans. Kawhi has a tendency to step up his game in the PS, which means that despite the impressive impact profile, you could argue those numbers still don't do justice to how good he is.

From 17-19 (so only 2 PS), Kawhi has the #1 3-year PS LEBRON since the stat has been kept (2014).

It's more than that though:

Kawhi 3-year PS Peaks

IA 29.4 pts per 75 (rTS% of 8.4%)

BPM-11.4
Backpicks BPM-7.2


Giannis 3-year PS Peaks

IA 29.1 pts per 75 (rTS% of 3%)

BPM-10.3
Backpicks BPM-6.5

In terms of single PS runs, Kawhi peaked higher in the aforementioned metrics, along with PS RAPTOR and SportsMath PS Score and Rolling PS Peaks Ranking

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Kawhi also ranks higher in a rolling-player player impact player ranking of best PS performers per-game

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I think the big difference is that there is just a level of comfort with Kawhi against the toughest defenses, that makes me lean him. The gap in scoring is massive as the numbers. Kawhi looks like a top 5 or top 10 scorer ever at his peak. Giannis' scoring puts him more so as maybe top 25 or so.

I think that solid baseline, makes me lean Kawhi if I have to pick.

I quite like kawhis peak but I feel people are overreacting from this series lol

On one hand, I prefer Giannis defense significantly more.

On the other, Kawhi is significantly more postseason resilient offensively.

Then it comes durability where neither one is good (but Kawhi is probably the worst since Bill Walton among MVP level players). I guess you have to go with Giannis, but it's quite close.

Kawhi's durability is just too much of a red flag.

All of his best playoff runs, there were injury concerns.

The same could be said about Giannis, but I do think Giannis peaked higher than Kawhi ever did in the finals. The Bucks should use him more like that, but they've gone away from it the past 2 seasons.

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Kawhi

I think Kawhi's peak is in that rarified air, where he can elevate an offense to championship heights, while still providing good impact on the defensive side of the ball, such as peak Lebron/Peak Bird, that I think it is fine to take him over Giannis assuming health.

I think people would say Giannis' peak was somewhere between 19-22 (23 is comparable to those years as well).

In that time span, Kawhi is #1 in 19-22 RAPM and was #1 in DRIP (multi-year metric that is forward looking in projecting performance).

Keep in mind that these metrics are mainly RS-based, so there is evidence suggesting that Kawhi on a per-possession basis in the RS was providing underrated impact that is among the impact-titans. Kawhi has a tendency to step up his game in the PS, which means that despite the impressive impact profile, you could argue those numbers still don't do justice to how good he is.

From 17-19 (so only 2 PS), Kawhi has the #1 3-year PS LEBRON since the stat has been kept (2014).

It's more than that though:

Kawhi 3-year PS Peaks

IA 29.4 pts per 75 (rTS% of 8.4%)

BPM-11.4
Backpicks BPM-7.2


Giannis 3-year PS Peaks

IA 29.1 pts per 75 (rTS% of 3%)

BPM-10.3
Backpicks BPM-6.5

In terms of single PS runs, Kawhi peaked higher in the aforementioned metrics, along with PS RAPTOR and SportsMath PS Score and Rolling PS Peaks Ranking

Read on Twitter

/photo/1

Read on Twitter

/photo/2


Kawhi also ranks higher in a rolling-player player impact player ranking of best PS performers per-game

Read on Twitter

/photo/1

I think the big difference is that there is just a level of comfort with Kawhi against the toughest defenses, that makes me lean him. The gap in scoring is massive as the numbers. Kawhi looks like a top 5 or top 10 scorer ever at his peak. Giannis' scoring puts him more so as maybe top 25 or so.

I think that solid baseline, makes me lean Kawhi if I have to pick.

This formula is random to say the very least, thus wielding some pretty awkward results. Wouldn't put much weight on these numbers.

I’ve said before that I like Kawhi’s peak more, so by me taking him here i’m not overreacting to Giannis’ most recent playoff flop. Reasoning is simple, Kawhi’s considerably more notable as a shooter and all around playoff scorer while providing excellent defense of his own. I just think if both are healthy for one playoff run, it’s hard for me to not take Kawhi all things considered.

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Kawhi 3-year PS Peaks

IA 29.4 pts per 75 (rTS% of 8.4%)

BPM-11.4
Backpicks BPM-7.2


Giannis 3-year PS Peaks

IA 29.1 pts per 75 (rTS% of 3%)

BPM-10.3
Backpicks BPM-6.5

Giannis scoring similarly to Kawhi in playoff metrics while being a much, much, much better defender(one of the best defenses ever turns into a -1.7 defense when he coasts) doesn't really help Kawhi here.

Kawhi needed a 60-win cast to get past Giannis putting up some of the worst offensive numbers of his playoff career having load-managed to get himself prepped for the playoffs.

If people think Giannis has improved as a player since, it's probably not that close. Maybe 2017 Kawhi specifically(or an extrapolated 21 or 23 Kawhi), but his offensive resiliency has not actually mattered nearly as much as people think it has towards actual results.

No-more-rings wrote:I’ve said before that I like Kawhi’s peak more, so by me taking him here i’m not overreacting to Giannis’ most recent playoff flop. Reasoning is simple, Kawhi’s considerably more notable as a shooter and all around playoff scorer while providing excellent defense of his own. I just think if both are healthy for one playoff run, it’s hard for me to not take Kawhi all things considered.

Did that excellent defense lineup with his more resilient scoring? The last time he looked like an all-time defensive wing statistically was 2016, when he averaged 22 points on 60% ts in the postseason elevating from 21 points on .597% true shooting.

And if prime Kawhi's more resilient scoring is more valuable than Giannis's advantages as a defender and a playmaker, why has prime Giannis been comparably successful in the postseason with teams that generally aren't nearly as good without him as Kawhi's were.

IdolW0rm wrote:

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Kawhi

I think Kawhi's peak is in that rarified air, where he can elevate an offense to championship heights, while still providing good impact on the defensive side of the ball, such as peak Lebron/Peak Bird, that I think it is fine to take him over Giannis assuming health.

I think people would say Giannis' peak was somewhere between 19-22 (23 is comparable to those years as well).

In that time span, Kawhi is #1 in 19-22 RAPM and was #1 in DRIP (multi-year metric that is forward looking in projecting performance).

Keep in mind that these metrics are mainly RS-based, so there is evidence suggesting that Kawhi on a per-possession basis in the RS was providing underrated impact that is among the impact-titans. Kawhi has a tendency to step up his game in the PS, which means that despite the impressive impact profile, you could argue those numbers still don't do justice to how good he is.

From 17-19 (so only 2 PS), Kawhi has the #1 3-year PS LEBRON since the stat has been kept (2014).

It's more than that though:

Kawhi 3-year PS Peaks

IA 29.4 pts per 75 (rTS% of 8.4%)

BPM-11.4
Backpicks BPM-7.2


Giannis 3-year PS Peaks

IA 29.1 pts per 75 (rTS% of 3%)

BPM-10.3
Backpicks BPM-6.5

In terms of single PS runs, Kawhi peaked higher in the aforementioned metrics, along with PS RAPTOR and SportsMath PS Score and Rolling PS Peaks Ranking

Read on Twitter

/photo/1

Read on Twitter

/photo/2


Kawhi also ranks higher in a rolling-player player impact player ranking of best PS performers per-game

Read on Twitter

/photo/1

I think the big difference is that there is just a level of comfort with Kawhi against the toughest defenses, that makes me lean him. The gap in scoring is massive as the numbers. Kawhi looks like a top 5 or top 10 scorer ever at his peak. Giannis' scoring puts him more so as maybe top 25 or so.

I think that solid baseline, makes me lean Kawhi if I have to pick.

This formula is random to say the very least, thus wielding some pretty awkward results. Wouldn't put much weight on these numbers.

Keep in mind the defensive stuff is basically just coming from the box-score and will omit most of the contributions of bigger players on that end(as well as more celebral guys) and this list starts to makes sense.

That Kawhi, a player whose best quality is man defense, cannot clear Giannis in playoff-only box-heavy metrics is pretty bad for his case

MyUniBroDavis wrote:I quite like kawhis peak but I feel people are overreacting from this series lol

Pretty obvious Giannis would have been better off not playing through injury at this point.

OhayoKD wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:I quite like kawhis peak but I feel people are overreacting from this series lol

Pretty obvious Giannis would have been better off not playing through injury at this point.

How? That would make his case even worse.

OhayoKD wrote:(one of the best defenses ever turns into a -1.7 defense when he coasts)

1. Why are you the one who decides when Giannis coasts and when not? If the Bucks can't reach their 2020 level anymore, then maybe Giannis isn't as good defensively anymore? Or maybe 2020 was a fluke?

2. If your team is still among the best teams in the league with you coasting, then it means that you play with absurdly stacked rosters.

I really don't understand your stance on this one. It's not the case with Giannis missing a lot of games and Bucks defense collapsing, it's just that Giannis can't replicate 2020 season in 3 tries, even with the addition of Holiday and Lopez improvement. Doesn't it tell something about Giannis of the last 3 years?

I have them on the same general tier, but the suggestion here that Giannis is starting out at a higher level feels dubious.

2021-23 Bucks with Giannis: +5.2, 69.1% win rate
2021-23 Bucks without Giannis: +0.2, 51.1% win rate
2021-23 Clippers with Kawhi: +6.4, 66.3% win rate
2021-23 Clippers without Kawhi: -1.3, 48.5% win rate

2021-23 Giannis: +4.62 RAPM, 32.7 minutes per game
2021-23 Kawhi: +6.45 RAPM, 33.9 minutes per game

2019-21 Giannis: +6.41 RAPM, 32.1 minutes per game
2019-21 Kawhi: +5.8 RAPM, 33.5 minutes per game

2019-23 Giannis: +6.24 RAPM, 32.3 minutes per game
2019-23 Kawhi: +6.02 RAPM, 33.5 minutes per game

Not really seeing much of a team impact advantage for Giannis in the regular season. Now, perhaps contrary to expectation, I do think Giannis’s team impact sees a relative increase in the postseason, but then that raises the question of whether we think that is because Giannis performs better while Kawhi performs worse, or whether that is because Giannis’s team has independently performed worse while Kawhi’s team has independently performed better.

70sFan wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:I quite like kawhis peak but I feel people are overreacting from this series lol

Pretty obvious Giannis would have been better off not playing through injury at this point.

How? That would make his case even worse.

Because Giannis's 4th quarter will be used to argue Giannis is not a reliable playoff performer. Reliable being key here since in terms of ceiling or capacity it's rather difficult to make a case for Kawhi(or any player of that sort of archetpe) against Giannis given both their regular season and playoff results. Even in 2019, Kawhi "outplays" Giannis but the Raptors can only really be described as surviving the Bucks despite an obviously significant disparity in help(and variance swinging their way on open looks). Even if you think Kawhi winning 4 straight with much better offensive production proves he is more reliable, Giannis was certainly capable of defeating Leonard and a better supporting cast.

This leaves more limited(at least in terms of the range of his skills) players like Kawhi hinging their argument on "floor". Kawhi can more reliably deliver on his potential so to speak. The issue is this "floor" appears illusionary when we look at everything instead of fixing on box-stuff. Setting aside the massive injury/durability concerns(at this point its up there with davis), a healthy Kawhi leonard hasn't actually done anything notable(at least for this comparison) outside of Toronto

In fact, we saw a theoretically better version of Kawhi in 2020(defense rebounds and playmaking improves) on a team with better help than any of Giannis's(the Clippers were a 48-win team before trading multiple role players for paul george, and posted a +6 SRS with George missing half the season and Kawhi missing 20 games), and his team were big underperformers being evenly matched with the healthy mavs in round 1 and then losing to Jokic and Murray in round 2. The nuggets, unlike the Raptors were not eventual champs instead losing decisively to the Lakers and being taken to 7 by a much weaker team than the 2019 Sixers or the Curry-led Warriors.

In 2016 he was on an excellent team and again got smoked in the second round(though at least this time it was a title-level opponent).

Both times his scoring production mantained, but he could not overcome non-elite paint protection(Duncan fell apart, and Zubac is...Zubac) regardless of this "excellent" defense that allegedly puts him over-the-top in a comparison with Giannis.

Giannis simply needs less to contend(19, 22), needs less to win(21), is empirically a more valuable regular season player, and is empirically a more valuable postseason player(comparable in box-stuff, with giannis having a big advantage in raw on/off or(bigger sample) the type of "indirect" analysis I started this post with whether you use adjusted or raw stuff to derive your off). Unless you extrapolate Giannis's 2 2023 performances, Kawhi's playoff case is basically just "I am a better postseason scorer and I didn't win enough regular season games to lose as a 1 seed".

Posters were unhappy with Giannis-Hakeem comparisons but the gap here is larger. With Hakeem it's a matter of "consistency, resiliency, and replication". With Kawhi it's "i have never shown this level of influence, i have never replicated my best stuff, and i have a fundemental defecit in skill that does not allow me to come anywhere near the other guy's level of influence on one side "

Kawhi has only won 1 championship as a top 10ish player, he has had excellent help for basically the entirety of his career(as in best help of anyone in the era besides Durant and Steph), and he has never otherwise overperformed(relative to the regular season) in a series he didn't suffer a season-ending injury in. Unlike Hakeem, he very obviously sandbags the rs to save energy for the playoffs, and even when he wasn't(for 2 years as a superstar?) he did not have a emperical profile(box or impact) to Giannis.

If Jimmy butler maintains 2021 lvl play for 2023, he will have a better prime(playoff) resume than Kawhi.

Kawhi has an excellent case as a better playoff scorer. But he is not a comparable playoff performer, even if you neglect the regular season entirely. This comparison actually warrants "insulting" as an adjective

IdolW0rm wrote:

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Kawhi

I think Kawhi's peak is in that rarified air, where he can elevate an offense to championship heights, while still providing good impact on the defensive side of the ball, such as peak Lebron/Peak Bird, that I think it is fine to take him over Giannis assuming health.

I think people would say Giannis' peak was somewhere between 19-22 (23 is comparable to those years as well).

In that time span, Kawhi is #1 in 19-22 RAPM and was #1 in DRIP (multi-year metric that is forward looking in projecting performance).

Keep in mind that these metrics are mainly RS-based, so there is evidence suggesting that Kawhi on a per-possession basis in the RS was providing underrated impact that is among the impact-titans. Kawhi has a tendency to step up his game in the PS, which means that despite the impressive impact profile, you could argue those numbers still don't do justice to how good he is.

From 17-19 (so only 2 PS), Kawhi has the #1 3-year PS LEBRON since the stat has been kept (2014).

It's more than that though:

Kawhi 3-year PS Peaks

IA 29.4 pts per 75 (rTS% of 8.4%)

BPM-11.4
Backpicks BPM-7.2


Giannis 3-year PS Peaks

IA 29.1 pts per 75 (rTS% of 3%)

BPM-10.3
Backpicks BPM-6.5

In terms of single PS runs, Kawhi peaked higher in the aforementioned metrics, along with PS RAPTOR and SportsMath PS Score and Rolling PS Peaks Ranking

Read on Twitter

/photo/1

Read on Twitter

/photo/2


Kawhi also ranks higher in a rolling-player player impact player ranking of best PS performers per-game

Read on Twitter

/photo/1

I think the big difference is that there is just a level of comfort with Kawhi against the toughest defenses, that makes me lean him. The gap in scoring is massive as the numbers. Kawhi looks like a top 5 or top 10 scorer ever at his peak. Giannis' scoring puts him more so as maybe top 25 or so.

I think that solid baseline, makes me lean Kawhi if I have to pick.

This formula is random to say the very least, thus wielding some pretty awkward results. Wouldn't put much weight on these numbers.

Not sure which formulas you are referring to. Multiple metrics I used are proprietary so we don't have the exact formula used.

70sFan wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:(one of the best defenses ever turns into a -1.7 defense when he coasts)

1. Why are you the one who decides when Giannis coasts and when not? If the Bucks can't reach their 2020 level anymore, then maybe Giannis isn't as good defensively anymore? Or maybe 2020 was a fluke?

2. If your team is still among the best teams in the league with you coasting, then it means that you play with absurdly stacked rosters.

I really don't understand your stance on this one. It's not the case with Giannis missing a lot of games and Bucks defense collapsing, it's just that Giannis can't replicate 2020 season in 3 tries, even with the addition of Holiday and Lopez improvement. Doesn't it tell something about Giannis of the last 3 years?

The bucks successfully reached that level in the playoffs in 19, 21, and 22. Luka said something about "best ever 4-year defensive playoff stretch" but that seems dubious so whatever. Criticizing Giannis's regular season defense doesn't work when you're defending Kawhi.

I also have no idea how you think the bucks being one of the best teams in the league with a player who still plays like a top 3 player in the regular season proves they're "absurdly stacked". Giannis is simply not an all-time level regular season player when he coasts. He still offers more than your average Kawhi season.

AEnigma wrote:I have them on the same general tier, but the suggestion here that Giannis is starting out at a higher level feels dubious.

2021-23 Bucks with Giannis: +5.2, 69.1% win rate
2021-23 Bucks without Giannis: +0.2, 51.1% win rate
2021-23 Clippers with Kawhi: +6.4, 66.3% win rate
2021-23 Clippers without Kawhi: -1.3, 48.5% win rate

2021-23 Giannis: +4.62 RAPM, 32.7 minutes per game
2021-23 Kawhi: +6.45 RAPM, 33.9 minutes per game

2019-21 Giannis: +6.41 RAPM, 32.1 minutes per game
2019-21 Kawhi: +5.8 RAPM, 33.5 minutes per game

2019-23 Giannis: +6.24 RAPM, 32.3 minutes per game
2019-23 Kawhi: +6.02 RAPM, 33.5 minutes per game

Not really seeing much of a team impact advantage for Giannis in the regular season. Now, perhaps contrary to expectation, I do think Giannis’s team impact sees a relative increase in the postseason, but then that raises the question of whether we think that is because Giannis performs better while Kawhi performs worse, or whether that is because Giannis’s team has independently performed worse while Kawhi’s team has independently performed better.

The gap in the 21-23 regular seasons comes from Giannis playing more games and more total minutes. And there's a big per-possession gap from 2019 and 2020 anyway. You can dismiss 2020 due to the playoffs, but the 2019 Bucks did as well as the 2016 Spurs with Giannis posting better offensive box production and did better than the 2020 Clippers(though Kawhi's offensive production was better). 2019 is the only realistic case and that would be based on production, not impact.

2021 and 2022 Giannis are peak kawhi-calibre regular seasons(with more games played) and the Bucks improve in the postseason. What exactly is Kawhi's argument here beyond "he's a better playoff scorer" and "if he we extrapolate full runs from 2017 and 2021 and 2023"

OhayoKD wrote:Giannis is simply not an all-time level regular season player when he coasts. He still offers more than your average Kawhi season.

AEnigma wrote:I have them on the same general tier, but the suggestion here that Giannis is starting out at a higher level feels dubious.

2021-23 Bucks with Giannis: +5.2, 69.1% win rate
2021-23 Bucks without Giannis: +0.2, 51.1% win rate
2021-23 Clippers with Kawhi: +6.4, 66.3% win rate
2021-23 Clippers without Kawhi: -1.3, 48.5% win rate

2021-23 Giannis: +4.62 RAPM, 32.7 minutes per game
2021-23 Kawhi: +6.45 RAPM, 33.9 minutes per game

2019-21 Giannis: +6.41 RAPM, 32.1 minutes per game
2019-21 Kawhi: +5.8 RAPM, 33.5 minutes per game

2019-23 Giannis: +6.24 RAPM, 32.3 minutes per game
2019-23 Kawhi: +6.02 RAPM, 33.5 minutes per game

Not really seeing much of a team impact advantage for Giannis in the regular season. Now, perhaps contrary to expectation, I do think Giannis’s team impact sees a relative increase in the postseason, but then that raises the question of whether we think that is because Giannis performs better while Kawhi performs worse, or whether that is because Giannis’s team has independently performed worse while Kawhi’s team has independently performed better.

The gap in the 21-23 regular seasons comes from Giannis playing more games and more total minutes. And there's a big per-possession gap from 2019 and 2020 anyway. You can dismiss 2020 due to the playoffs, but the 2019 Bucks did as well as the 2016 Spurs with Giannis posting better offensive box production and did better than the 2020 Clippers(though Kawhi's offensive production was better). 2019 is the only realistic case and that would be based on production, not impact.

2021 and 2022 Giannis are peak kawhi-calibre regular seasons(with more games played) and the Bucks improve in the postseason. What exactly is Kawhi's argument here beyond "he's a better playoff scorer" and "if he we extrapolate full runs from 2017 and 2021 and 2023"

Yeah that is not how RAPM works. Kawhi missing more games is why his sample is potentially noisier, not why the gap is secretly larger (or for the past three years, smaller) than portrayed. Criticism of Kawhi’s health is fine, but that is distinct from trying to measure how Kawhi performs when healthy. And when trying to extend that to the playoffs, whether Giannis is a better postseason player now does not mean he has successfully translated his 2019/20 regular season form.

OhayoKD wrote:Because Giannis's 4th quarter will be used to argue Giannis is not a reliable playoff performer.

I don't think it's the 4th quarter alone that makes people doubt in Giannis ability to be reliable in the playoffs. Rightfully or wrongfully, it's not the matter of this quarter, but Giannis playoff history.

Reliable being key here since in terms of ceiling or capacity it's rather difficult to make a case for Kawhi(or any player of that sort of archetpe) against Giannis given both their regular season and playoff results.

What exactly Giannis reached in terms of "ceiling or capacity" in the playoffs though?

Even in 2019, Kawhi "outplays" Giannis but the Raptors can only really be described as surviving the Bucks despite an obviously significant disparity in help(and variance swinging their way on open looks).

So we start this discussion again... You can argue that Raptors were more talented overall than the Bucks, but arguing for "significant disparity in help" is plain wrong.

This leaves more limited(at least in terms of the range of his skills) players like Kawhi hinging their argument on "floor". Kawhi can more reliably deliver on his potential so to speak. The issue is this "floor" appears illusionary when we look at everything instead of fixing on box-stuff. Setting aside the massive injury/durability concerns(at this point its up there with davis), a healthy Kawhi leonard hasn't actually done anything notable(at least for this comparison) outside of Toronto

In fact, we saw a theoretically better version of Kawhi in 2020(defense rebounds and playmaking improves) on a team with better help than any of Giannis's(the Clippers were a 48-win team before trading multiple role players for paul george, and posted a +6 SRS with George missing half the season and Kawhi missing 20 games), and his team were big underperformers being evenly matched with the healthy mavs in round 1 and then losing to Jokic and Murray in round 2. The nuggets, unlike the Raptors were not eventual champs instead losing decisively to the Lakers and being taken to 7 by a much weaker team than the 2019 Sixers or the Curry-led Warriors.

Yes, Kawhi hasn't done anything notable outside of Toronto, but that's because he was hurt basically in every postseason run outside of 2016 and 2020. The sample is so small, that we basically argue what's more representative - 2019 or 2020.

Giannis simply needs less to contend(19, 22),

Giannis didn't have less in 2022 than Kawhi in 2020 and they finished the season in similar way.

needs less to win(21),

While facing significantly weaker competition...

is empirically a more valuable regular season player,

Only if you fixate yourself on 2019-20 period and decide that Giannis "coasts" after...

and is empirically a more valuable postseason player(comparable in box-stuff, with giannis having a big advantage in raw on/off or(bigger sample) the type of "indirect" analysis I started this post with whether you use adjusted or raw stuff to derive your off).

Giannis on/off playoff numbers outside of 2022 are quite disappointing for that level of player. Kawhi isn't consistent either, but I don't see Giannis as clearly "empirically a more valuable postseason player".

Unless you extrapolate Giannis's 2 2023 performances, Kawhi's playoff case is basically just "I am a better postseason scorer and I didn't win enough regular season games to lose as a 1 seed".

The problem is that Giannis criticism isn't something that got created after this performance and you know it.

Posters were unhappy with Giannis-Hakeem comparisons but the gap here is larger. With Hakeem it's a matter of "consistency, resiliency, and replication". With Kawhi it's "i have never shown this level of influence, i have never replicated my best stuff, and i have a fundemental defecit in skill that does not allow me to come anywhere near the other guy's level of influence on one side "

Kawhi has only won 1 championship as a top 10ish player, he has had excellent help for basically the entirety of his career(as in best help of anyone in the era besides Durant and Steph), and he has never otherwise overperformed(relative to the regular season) in a series he didn't suffer a season-ending injury in. Unlike Hakeem, he very obviously sandbags the rs to save energy for the playoffs, and even when he wasn't(for 2 years as a superstar?) he did not have a emperical profile(box or impact) to Giannis.

Indeed, Kawhi career is very overrated overall, but his problem is that throughout his prime (2016-23), he was semi-healthy only in 3 postseason runs. If your argument is that Kawhi hasn't shown enough due to small sample of size, I may agree with you - but that's not your argumentation here.

If Jimmy butler maintains 2021 lvl play for 2023, he will have a better prime(playoff) resume than Kawhi.

I agree, but Bulter's resume is arguably better than Giannis as well.

OhayoKD wrote:The bucks successfully reached that level in the playoffs in 19, 21, and 22. Luka said something about "best ever 4-year defensive playoff stretch" but whatever. Criticizing Giannis's regular season defense doesn't work when you're defending Kawhi.

Well, if you think that playoff team numbers represents Giannis overall capacity better, then we should also take a look at Bucks offensive performance:

2019: +3.2
2020: +0.0
2021: +0.5
2022: -5.3
2023: +1.1

It would suggest that Giannis isn't capable of sustaining his offensive production when he increases his defensive effort. If that's the case, then I don't think we can just say that Giannis is a two-way monster who just coasts in RS...

I also have no idea how you think the bucks being one of the best teams in the league with a player who still plays like a top 3 player in the regular season proves they're "absurdly stacked". Giannis is simply not an all-time level regular season player when he coasts. He still offers more than your average Kawhi season.

I think that because the Bucks played at almost the same level defensively without Giannis in the last 3 regular seasons. The Bucks have been stacked defensively for years.

Again, if Giannis isn't all-time level RS player (overrated offense, not trying on defense) and in the playoffs his offense gets more problematic because of increased defensive effort, then it seems that Giannis can't functionally operate as the top tier two-way player in the league history anymore.

“Peak Kawhi” is only like 2 seasons. And he got injured in one of those playoffs….