Gordon Hayward vs Lauri Markannen

[durantbird]

Has Markannen this year been better than prime Hayward?

[jazzfan1971]

2023 RPM Lauri = 5.69
2016 RPM Hayward= 1.97

[Colbinii]

I prefer Hayward playmaking and defense over Lauri but its close. Same tier/caliber players--low-end all-stars, 3rd best players on a championship team.

[dautjazz]

Far better. Hayward was a borderline All-Star, Lauri is gonna make All-NBA 2nd team probably.

[rand]

2023 RPM Lauri = 5.69
2016 RPM Hayward= 1.97

May I ask what data set you're using?

The only current one I have access to is Ryan Davis' NPI set: http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm?id=-458880811

RD has Lauri as +1.88, good for #36. He ranks Gordon Hayward higher than that in 2013, 2017 and 2020, though far behind that in 2014 and 2016.

[Colbinii]

2023 RPM Lauri = 5.69
2016 RPM Hayward= 1.97

May I ask what data set you're using?

The only current one I have access to is Ryan Davis' NPI set: http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm?id=-458880811

RD has Lauri as +1.88, good for #36. He ranks Gordon Hayward higher than that in 2013, 2017 and 2020, though far behind that in 2014 and 2016.

He is using the crappy ESPN RPM

[rand]

2023 RPM Lauri = 5.69
2016 RPM Hayward= 1.97

May I ask what data set you're using?

The only current one I have access to is Ryan Davis' NPI set: http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm?id=-458880811

RD has Lauri as +1.88, good for #36. He ranks Gordon Hayward higher than that in 2013, 2017 and 2020, though far behind that in 2014 and 2016.

He is using the crappy ESPN RPM

Oh. Somehow I didn't notice the A was missing. Thanks.

[jazzfan1971]

May I ask what data set you're using?

The only current one I have access to is Ryan Davis' NPI set: http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm?id=-458880811

RD has Lauri as +1.88, good for #36. He ranks Gordon Hayward higher than that in 2013, 2017 and 2020, though far behind that in 2014 and 2016.

He is using the crappy ESPN RPM

Oh. Somehow I didn't notice the A was missing. Thanks.

Gordon did have a higher RPM that year. 2.11. That looks like it was his best year for EFG% the year I picked had a little better counting stats.

I do like 'crappy' RPM. It just feels better to me. I much prefer RPM's rank of 45 over RAPM's rank of 8 for Hayward that year.

[Colbinii]

He is using the crappy ESPN RPM

Oh. Somehow I didn't notice the A was missing. Thanks.

Gordon did have a higher RPM that year. 2.11. That looks like it was his best year for EFG% the year I picked had a little better counting stats.

I do like 'crappy' RPM. It just feels better to me. I much prefer RPM's rank of 45 over RAPM's rank of 8 for Hayward that year.

Relying on one statistic is lazy, isn't it?

Here are Hayward ranking in a multitude of different metrics.

BPM: 17th
OBPM: 19th
WS/48: 17th
PER: 25th
TS+: 19th [+115]

Here is Lauri:

BPM: 23rd
OBPM: 17th
WS/48: 30th
PER: 21st
TS+: 7th [+155.8]

Its very close. RAPM [a more accurate predictor of impact than RPM] rates Hayward a bit better.

Lauri is a better scorer. Hayward is better at everything else [playmaking, rebounding for position, defense].

Both are similar players.

[jazzfan1971]

Oh. Somehow I didn't notice the A was missing. Thanks.

Gordon did have a higher RPM that year. 2.11. That looks like it was his best year for EFG% the year I picked had a little better counting stats.

I do like 'crappy' RPM. It just feels better to me. I much prefer RPM's rank of 45 over RAPM's rank of 8 for Hayward that year.

Relying on one statistic is lazy, isn't it?

Here are Hayward ranking in a multitude of different metrics.

BPM: 17th
OBPM: 19th
WS/48: 17th
PER: 25th
TS+: 19th [+115]

Here is Lauri:

BPM: 23rd
OBPM: 17th
WS/48: 30th
PER: 21st
TS+: 7th [+155.8]

Its very close. RAPM [a more accurate predictor of impact than RPM] rates Hayward a bit better.

Lauri is a better scorer. Hayward is better at everything else [playmaking, rebounding for position, defense].

Both are similar players.

Maybe it's lazy. But, I have found it to be the best all in one stat to my eyeballs. I see less results in it that just seem to invalidate the entire thing. When you look at the list I generally think it's a good one. Those top 10 seem like the top 10. Those top 30 seem like the top 30. Those top 50 seem like the top 50. No stat is perfect, but RPM is very good. Also, it's free and easy for everyone to find and access.

I use it consistently, so I'm not just cherry picking various stats to support whatever argument I'm trying to make at the moment. I think some people fall into that trap.

I think if folks around here wanted to agree on one standard it would be a fine choice. But if folks like RAPM or LEBRON or DARKO or RAPTOR better I would be inclined to join with them just to keep a consistent standard. (certainly not PER... Yuck)

[Colbinii]

Gordon did have a higher RPM that year. 2.11. That looks like it was his best year for EFG% the year I picked had a little better counting stats.

I do like 'crappy' RPM. It just feels better to me. I much prefer RPM's rank of 45 over RAPM's rank of 8 for Hayward that year.

Relying on one statistic is lazy, isn't it?

Here are Hayward ranking in a multitude of different metrics.

BPM: 17th
OBPM: 19th
WS/48: 17th
PER: 25th
TS+: 19th [+115]

Here is Lauri:

BPM: 23rd
OBPM: 17th
WS/48: 30th
PER: 21st
TS+: 7th [+155.8]

Its very close. RAPM [a more accurate predictor of impact than RPM] rates Hayward a bit better.

Lauri is a better scorer. Hayward is better at everything else [playmaking, rebounding for position, defense].

Both are similar players.

Maybe it's lazy. But, I have found it to be the best all in one stat to my eyeballs. I see less results in it that just seem to invalidate the entire thing. When you look at the list I generally think it's a good one. Those top 10 seem like the top 10. Those top 30 seem like the top 30. Those top 50 seem like the top 50. No stat is perfect, but RPM is very good. Also, it's free and easy for everyone to find and access.

I use it consistently, so I'm not just cherry picking various stats to support whatever argument I'm trying to make at the moment. I think some people fall into that trap.

I think if folks around here wanted to agree on one standard it would be a fine choice. But if folks like RAPM or LEBRON or DARKO or RAPTOR better I would be inclined to join with them just to keep a consistent standard. (certainly not PER... Yuck)

Food for thought.

https://hoopshype.com/lists/advanced-stats-nba-real-plus-minus-rapm-win-shares-analytics/

Nba execs rank them as the following

DPM
EPM
LEBRON
RAPTOR
RAPM
BPM
RPM

This is what was said about RPM.

But keep using RPM!

“RPM created by Jeremias Engelmann is not the one currently displayed on ESPN,” responded one individual, who works as the director of basketball analytics for a team in the Western Conference. “I would rank the former very highly while the latter is in my estimation fairly useless.”

Overall, the opinions about ESPN’s RPM were the most divisive of any metric mentioned. Some even felt that there may be something broken in whatever coding is currently formulating the results.

tl;dr ESPN scrapped the old formula of RPM for a new one and the new one is essentially useless

[parsnips33]

I'm guessing Jazz fans will be most knowledgeable:

What are the biggest differences in their games? Seems like Hayward had a bit more off-the-dribble game is that accurate?

[jazzfan1971]

Hayward had one off the dribble move. Drive hard left and then pull up on a 18 footer. He could get that shot pretty often.

Lauri is pretty much a straight line driver, but he does get a lot of those.