Curry's Offense

[ShaqAttac]

A friend said messaged sumthn interestin to me after watchin the game and I was wonderin what u fine pc ppl might think about it:

cast aside era relativity, cast aside who had the best postseason relative offenses, no scoring guard has ever produced offense for his team as well as steph

"cast asidee" pretty theatery but what y'all think?

[Jaivl]

Cast aside era relativity, cast aside who had the best postseason relative offenses, no scoring guard has ever produced offense for his team as well as De'Aaron Fox.

[Medbrat]

Cast aside Curry couldn't make the playoffs multiple times.

[rk2023]

Cast aside Curry couldn't make the playoffs multiple times.

Aside from two seasons back (which I don't view as an indictment on him), you would have to reach all the way back to 2010-11 to find the last time Curry missed the playoffs while playing a majority of games.

[OhayoKD]

Cast aside Curry couldn't make the playoffs multiple times.

Aside from two seasons back (which I don't view as an indictment on him), you would have to reach all the way back to 2010-11 to find the last time Curry missed the playoffs while playing a majority of games.

Jordan also has a couple seasons with a losing record IIRC. 2021 dubs did not

[Colbinii]

Cast aside Curry couldn't make the playoffs multiple times.

In 2021, the GSW went 1-7 without Curry. They also finished 8th in their conference, which means every season prior to 2021 they would have made the post-season. Those Warriors finished 39-33 with a 1.10 SRS.

Michael Jordan made the playoffs with the follow teams:
1985 Bulls, 38-44, -.50 SRS
1986 Bulls, 30-52, -3.12 SRS [Jordan played 18 games]
1987 Bulls, 40-42, 1.26 SRS

[kendogg]

I think if Curry was cast aside he wouldn't have any offense at all since he would be stuck on an island by himself. He could use Wilson to knock coconuts out of the tree. Though he would need to be careful not to have one fall on his head. I think falling coconut is the superior sky ****.

[OhayoKD]

A friend said messaged sumthn interestin to me after watchin the game and I was wonderin what u fine pc ppl might think about it:

cast aside era relativity, cast aside who had the best postseason relative offenses, no scoring guard has ever produced offense for his team as well as steph

"cast asidee" pretty theatery but what y'all think?

This seems like a very "Doc MJ" way of saying Curry's the best offensive guard ever(in a vacuum or in this era)

Interesting take... curious what others have to say:

Analyzing skill-sets and comparing/predicting translatoin seems more your vibe so I'm curious what your response to this would be. Presumably Curry's competition here is Jordan, West, and Reggie, but I'm wondering how those three would fare in this league or others in steph's place(adjust the roster as you deem fit).

How does curry compare in terms of being able to "handle-swarms", and does his increased range off-set his physical limitations? Lots of questions to be answered here and I'd be interested in seeing how you guys answer them.

[parsnips33]

I think if Curry was cast aside he wouldn't have any offense at all since he would be stuck on an island by himself. He could use Wilson to knock coconuts out of the tree. Though he would need to be careful not to have one fall on his head. I think falling coconut is the superior sky ****.

This comment is 50 times funnier when you realize the movie is called Cast Away not Cast Aside

[Colbinii]

I think if Curry was cast aside he wouldn't have any offense at all since he would be stuck on an island by himself. He could use Wilson to knock coconuts out of the tree. Though he would need to be careful not to have one fall on his head. I think falling coconut is the superior sky ****.

This comment is 50 times funnier when you realize the movie is called Cast Away not Cast Aside

Dude tried!

[parsnips33]

A friend said messaged sumthn interestin to me after watchin the game and I was wonderin what u fine pc ppl might think about it:

cast aside era relativity, cast aside who had the best postseason relative offenses, no scoring guard has ever produced offense for his team as well as steph

"cast asidee" pretty theatery but what y'all think?

This seems like a very "Doc MJ" way of saying Curry's the best offensive guard ever(in a vacuum or in this era)

Interesting take... curious what others have to say:

Analyzing skill-sets and comparing/predicting translatoin seems more your vibe so I'm curious what your response to this would be. Presumably Curry's competition here is Jordan, West, and Reggie, but I'm wondering how those three would fare in this league or others in steph's place(adjust the roster as you deem fit).

How does curry compare in terms of being able to "handle-swarms", and does his increased range off-set his physical limitations? Lots of questions to be answered here and I'd be interested in seeing how you guys answer them.

I think his slight frame and ability to deal with hard doubles were genuine weaknesses in his game even as late as the second MVP year. But I think by 2018, there really has not been a weakness in his game on that end. Sure, the percentages will rise and fall given that so many of his shots come from distance compared to anybody in his realm offensively, but I don't think it's controversial at this point to say the pressure he puts on defenses is fairly robust regardless of game-to-game percentages

[OhayoKD]

A friend said messaged sumthn interestin to me after watchin the game and I was wonderin what u fine pc ppl might think about it:



"cast asidee" pretty theatery but what y'all think?

This seems like a very "Doc MJ" way of saying Curry's the best offensive guard ever(in a vacuum or in this era)

Interesting take... curious what others have to say:

Analyzing skill-sets and comparing/predicting translatoin seems more your vibe so I'm curious what your response to this would be. Presumably Curry's competition here is Jordan, West, and Reggie, but I'm wondering how those three would fare in this league or others in steph's place(adjust the roster as you deem fit).

How does curry compare in terms of being able to "handle-swarms", and does his increased range off-set his physical limitations? Lots of questions to be answered here and I'd be interested in seeing how you guys answer them.

I think his slight frame and ability to deal with hard doubles were genuine weaknesses in his game even as late as the second MVP year. But I think by 2018, there really has not been a weakness in his game on that end. Sure, the percentages will rise and fall given that so many of his shots come from distance compared to anybody in his realm offensively, but I don't think it's controversial at this point to say the pressure he puts on defenses is fairly robust regardless of game-to-game percentages

Tbh I feel he was still improving in that regard through to 2021. Curry's stronger now than he was from 15-19. I also think Curry's decision making has steadily improved since the 2016 flame-out.

As for the shot stuff, if nothing else, it's probably fair to say scheming for Curry is a tricker task than it's been for any other small, though those percentages fluctuate more than they did for the other guys I think(open question how much of that is curry the player, and how much is the context he plays in)

[MyUniBroDavis]

Currys off ball stuff gets talked about way too much relative to his on ball skill

If he was like Kyrie level in iso you basically have a perfect unguardable pg, the only possible thing I can see is that he’s elite instead is unstoppable in isolation against some switches, everything else is basically perfect (Altho he’s not been as effective on logo threes as he was back at his prime/peak, that actually matters because if he was we couldn’t run a deep drop against him) People don’t talk about his playmaking nearly enough, he throws some careless passes but his actual passing/playmaking ability is for sure up there with the best in the league

Those 4v3 situations aren’t just because of draymond lol, currys the best playmaker out of aggressive screen coverages in nba history and it’s like not even remotely close

[70sFan]

Magic Johnson still existed.

[parsnips33]

Currys off ball stuff gets talked about way too much relative to his on ball skill

If he was like Kyrie level in iso you basically have a perfect unguardable pg, the only possible thing I can see is that he’s elite instead is unstoppable in isolation against some switches, everything else is basically perfect (Altho he’s not been as effective on logo threes as he was back at his prime/peak, that actually matters because if he was we couldn’t run a deep drop against him) People don’t talk about his playmaking nearly enough, he throws some careless passes but his actual passing/playmaking ability is for sure up there with the best in the league

Those 4v3 situations aren’t just because of draymond lol, currys the best playmaker out of aggressive screen coverages in nba history and it’s like not even remotely close

You see clear separation between Kyrie and Steph on isos? Who is the top tier for you?

[Heej]

Currys off ball stuff gets talked about way too much relative to his on ball skill

If he was like Kyrie level in iso you basically have a perfect unguardable pg, the only possible thing I can see is that he’s elite instead is unstoppable in isolation against some switches, everything else is basically perfect (Altho he’s not been as effective on logo threes as he was back at his prime/peak, that actually matters because if he was we couldn’t run a deep drop against him) People don’t talk about his playmaking nearly enough, he throws some careless passes but his actual passing/playmaking ability is for sure up there with the best in the league

Those 4v3 situations aren’t just because of draymond lol, currys the best playmaker out of aggressive screen coverages in nba history and it’s like not even remotely close

Yup this isn't talked enough. He's actually the GOAT passer out of blitzes on the perimeter and especially above the 3pt line. Not that the list of guys who routinely face those coverages us exceptionally long lol. But he's the only one I've seen that strings the big along for an extra dribble and effortlessly hooks a pass over to the rolling big. No one else in the league does that other than Jokic and that's vs post doubles, so he's really the only guy to ever do that.

But also let's call a spade a spade here and acknowledge the fact that he's legitimately bottom 3 in terms of shot selection out of his contemporaries in the top 15 (any guesses on who the other 2 are? ).

He's probably the GOAT guard screener in NBA history with really only Stockton and perhaps CP as his challengers imo (funny enough Kyrie lays solid wood on his screens lol, just can't seal and cut like Curry can).

And this is going to get some Curry stans mad and I don't really care, but you also need to acknowledge that his late game execution is also on the low tier out of the top 15 guys. For whatever reason he makes a lot of bonehead plays and momentum killing TOs and jacks up shots. Stamina is the biggest issue with his particular archetype imo because they're targeted by defenses. In nearly every series you're guaranteed 1 game by Steph that's an absolute dud while he was at his apex, to more of a degree than others he's compared to.

He also doesn't get to the free throw line nearly enough compared to other elite guards in NBA history which is a weakness of his.

Does he produce the most offense by volume? I mean I guess, as far as getting the ball and bodies moving and generating advantages; I can buy that. He also gives defenses a lot of bailout shots though and seemingly has stamina issues throughout certain games in a series.

In aggregate I think his only real guard competitors are Magic Jordan and maybe Big O or Jerry West. I'd probably comfortably take him over everyone on that list except Magic who just managed an offense better than anyone ever, especially for the first 40 minutes of a game. When it gets down to brass tacks in late game execution I wouldn't be surprised if several of those guys jump him due to inconsistency and variance being inherently bad for an offense the less possessions there are.

Like Unibro said, this is probably comfortably Steph if he was better at just playmaking in isolation which is basically the most low variance play type in basketball and esp in 4th quarters. Or even if he just got to the line more. But respectfully, with his shot selection, low FT rate, and spotty decision making (I understand he's the GOAT shooter but let's be real here) I just am not taking him over Magic.

And I'm sure this is why he never actually lead a GOAT level playoff offenses.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Currys off ball stuff gets talked about way too much relative to his on ball skill

If he was like Kyrie level in iso you basically have a perfect unguardable pg, the only possible thing I can see is that he’s elite instead is unstoppable in isolation against some switches, everything else is basically perfect (Altho he’s not been as effective on logo threes as he was back at his prime/peak, that actually matters because if he was we couldn’t run a deep drop against him) People don’t talk about his playmaking nearly enough, he throws some careless passes but his actual passing/playmaking ability is for sure up there with the best in the league

Those 4v3 situations aren’t just because of draymond lol, currys the best playmaker out of aggressive screen coverages in nba history and it’s like not even remotely close

You see clear separation between Kyrie and Steph on isos? Who is the top tier for you?

If we’re talking small guard isos, in terms of purely their ability to score, Kyrie is like the best guard in the league right now

Here’s his iso ppp and possessions since 2017

2017 1.12ppp 5.1 possessions a game
2018 1.04ppp 3.5 possessions a game
2019 0.97ppp 3.0 possessions a game
2020 1.06ppp 3.6 possessions a game
2021 1.11ppp 4.3 possessions a game
2022 1.01ppp 5.5 possessions a game
2023 1.28ppp 4.8 possessions a game

Steph is similar effeciency wise, a tad bit higher, but in like a third of the possessions, and he tends to pass it out far more than Kyrie does/not go iso outside of switches as much

Kyrie isn’t the most willing passer off isolation and will take some crazy shots (hitting most of them), but his pure ability to score of iso is ridiculous, his effeciency and volume are basically the same as KDs over this stretch

I think Curry is probably my GOAT point guard at this point at least in terms of how good he is, but my only real gripe is if the offense doesn’t work out in a possession and you kind of have to just give it to him and tell him to get a bucket in a situation without advantage, he’s good but he’s not quite in that top tier imo, at least in terms of this

Golden state is better at attacking switches now than they were in 2018 I think, so a lot of that is mitigated, but still

Like if you got the 5 best perimeter defenders in the league and tell someone to score against them 1 on 1, Curry wouldn’t really be my first option there right now

[parsnips33]

Free throw rate is a good point

What do people think is the reason it's so low relatively? Obviously a much lower likelihood of getting fouled on a jump shot, but it seems anecdotally that he doesn't get nearly as many calls on drives as his peers

Is it an approach thing? I'm tempted to say reffing has some impact, but have to check my Warriors fan bias

[parsnips33]

Currys off ball stuff gets talked about way too much relative to his on ball skill

If he was like Kyrie level in iso you basically have a perfect unguardable pg, the only possible thing I can see is that he’s elite instead is unstoppable in isolation against some switches, everything else is basically perfect (Altho he’s not been as effective on logo threes as he was back at his prime/peak, that actually matters because if he was we couldn’t run a deep drop against him) People don’t talk about his playmaking nearly enough, he throws some careless passes but his actual passing/playmaking ability is for sure up there with the best in the league

Those 4v3 situations aren’t just because of draymond lol, currys the best playmaker out of aggressive screen coverages in nba history and it’s like not even remotely close

You see clear separation between Kyrie and Steph on isos? Who is the top tier for you?

If we’re talking small guard isos, in terms of purely their ability to score, Kyrie is like the best guard in the league rn or close to it

Here’s his iso ppp and possessions since 2017

2017 1.12ppp 5.1 possessions a game
2018 1.04ppp 3.5 possessions a game
2019 0.97ppp 3.0 possessions a game
2020 1.06ppp 3.6 possessions a game
2021 1.11ppp 4.3 possessions a game
2022 1.01ppp 5.5 possessions a game
2023 1.28ppp 4.8 possessions a game

Steph is similar effeciency wise, a tad bit higher, but in like a third of the possessions, and he tends to pass it out far more than Kyrie does/not go iso outside of switches as much

Kyrie isn’t the most willing passer off isolation and will take some crazy shots (hitting most of them), but his pure ability to score of iso is ridiculous, his effeciency and volume are basically the same as KDs over this stretch

You doubt that the efficiency would scale at higher volume? I just see the low volume as much more indicative of coaching then ability

Also think I might have Harden as the best guard iso-er. Maybe not currently, but Houston Harden was on another plane

[Colbinii]

You see clear separation between Kyrie and Steph on isos? Who is the top tier for you?

If we’re talking small guard isos, in terms of purely their ability to score, Kyrie is like the best guard in the league rn or close to it

Here’s his iso ppp and possessions since 2017

2017 1.12ppp 5.1 possessions a game
2018 1.04ppp 3.5 possessions a game
2019 0.97ppp 3.0 possessions a game
2020 1.06ppp 3.6 possessions a game
2021 1.11ppp 4.3 possessions a game
2022 1.01ppp 5.5 possessions a game
2023 1.28ppp 4.8 possessions a game

Steph is similar effeciency wise, a tad bit higher, but in like a third of the possessions, and he tends to pass it out far more than Kyrie does/not go iso outside of switches as much

Kyrie isn’t the most willing passer off isolation and will take some crazy shots (hitting most of them), but his pure ability to score of iso is ridiculous, his effeciency and volume are basically the same as KDs over this stretch

You doubt that the efficiency would scale at higher volume? I just see the low volume as much more indicative of coaching then ability

Also think I might have Harden as the best guard iso-er. Maybe not currently, but Houston Harden was on another plane

2018 Harden was the best isolation scorer ever and nobody else has come close, afaik.

10 Possessions per game and 1.2 PPP [120 Ortg]

The only players who scored more PPP than Harden in Isolation had extremely low volume [everyone was under 40 total possessions except Jokic at 54. Harden had over 700 Possessions].

Chris Paul was 2nd in the league at 1.1 [110 Ortg]. There were 11 players between 1.0 PPP and 1.1 PPP. Meaning the difference between Harden and #2 was the same as #2 and #12.

2019 Harden was also incredible with...wait for it...1280 possessions in isolations at a 1.1 PPP [110 Ortg] clip.

Harden had more Isolations in 2019 than the next 4 most Isolation scorers had combined--and none of them bested 1.06 PPP.