This 50s/60s/70s player x was like this modern player y, but a better (worse) version! Your takes!
Posted: Wed May 10, 2023 1:27 pm
Hey,
I have a hard time to classify old era players. I have limited knowledge about them, but I disagree about not to compare those players with modern players. It is not their fault they didn't live today. Also it is not their fault if they didn't have today's rules. Imagine having the 3-pt line from the begin, most likely many players would average more points because it is more efficient to shoot 3s. The paint is less cramped, etc.
So to offset this, in my mind I try to give that premodern player the same access modern players get today. So better education, training from childhood begin, modern medicine (PEDs, operations, healing), modern training methods, modern coaching methods and strategies, modern travelling, modern human rights, modern facilities, modern game rules etc.
So basically in my mind I ask "what if premodern player x had the same opportunities like modern players, he would be just like player y, but a better version of that". This helps me to understand what kind of a player they were by finding a similar type of modern player like them.
Especially the argument about "they played against milkmen" is absurd. Maybe they did (not true), but then again they had by far less access to all of things above, so it equals it out. Imagine how Wilt or Russell dominated those "milkmen". Now imagine them having todays PEDs and training facilities, modern coaches, modern basketball strategies, chefs, nutritions, etc. how much a monster they would be then? Of course it equals it out again since modern players are also better on average because of their access to all of these things.
And by doing that I try to do my tier list with this method. But since my knowledge about premodern players is limited and not in-depth because I never educated myself enough, I wanted to ask people with more knowledge and want to see their takes on it. But still with my limited knowledge I have my own opinion ofc.
This is my 5x4 tier list btw. (my top 20). I don't like to rank them in order, but in tiers (alphabetically). To me there is no 1 GOAT, but 4 GOATs. Then there is the next tier etc.
Tier 1 - Jordan, Kareem, LeBron, Wilt
Tier 2 - Hakeem, Magic, Robertson, Russell
Tier 3 - Bird, Duncan, Shaq, West
Tier 4 - Curry, Elgin, K. Malone, Stockton
Tier 5 - Durant, Erving, Kobe, Moses
But I think I am prone to recency bias which is why I am interested to know your takes about premodern players. Maybe I am overlooking some older players?
For example a take of mine would be which I use to rank them:
- Bill Russell was like Dwight Howard, but better.
- Wilt was like Karl Malone, but better.
I may be wrong of course but this is how I imagine them in my head (based also on the footages, similar stats, similar strengths, etc.).
Can you find similar players to these premodern players below, so I have a better understanding of them? Feel free to also include other players I didn't mention.
For better reading purposes, you can replace "X was like Y, but better" with a " > ".
So instead of "Bill Russell was like Dwight Howard, but better." you can use instead "Bill Russell > Dwight Howard"
Your takes:
- Alex English:
- Bill Russell:
- Bob Cousy:
- Bob Lanier:
- Bob McAdoo:
- Bob Pettit:
- Elgin Baylor:
- Elvin Hayes:
- George Mikan:
- Jerry West:
- John Havlicek:
- Julius Erving:
- Nate Thurmond:
- Oscar Robertson:
- Pete Maravich:
- Rick Barry:
- Sam Jones:
- Spencer Haywood:
- Tom Heinsohn:
- Walt Frazier:
- Wes Unseld:
- Willis Reed:
- Wilt Chamberlain:
Thanks.
I have a hard time to classify old era players. I have limited knowledge about them, but I disagree about not to compare those players with modern players. It is not their fault they didn't live today. Also it is not their fault if they didn't have today's rules. Imagine having the 3-pt line from the begin, most likely many players would average more points because it is more efficient to shoot 3s. The paint is less cramped, etc.
So to offset this, in my mind I try to give that premodern player the same access modern players get today. So better education, training from childhood begin, modern medicine (PEDs, operations, healing), modern training methods, modern coaching methods and strategies, modern travelling, modern human rights, modern facilities, modern game rules etc.
So basically in my mind I ask "what if premodern player x had the same opportunities like modern players, he would be just like player y, but a better version of that". This helps me to understand what kind of a player they were by finding a similar type of modern player like them.
Especially the argument about "they played against milkmen" is absurd. Maybe they did (not true), but then again they had by far less access to all of things above, so it equals it out. Imagine how Wilt or Russell dominated those "milkmen". Now imagine them having todays PEDs and training facilities, modern coaches, modern basketball strategies, chefs, nutritions, etc. how much a monster they would be then? Of course it equals it out again since modern players are also better on average because of their access to all of these things.
And by doing that I try to do my tier list with this method. But since my knowledge about premodern players is limited and not in-depth because I never educated myself enough, I wanted to ask people with more knowledge and want to see their takes on it. But still with my limited knowledge I have my own opinion ofc.
This is my 5x4 tier list btw. (my top 20). I don't like to rank them in order, but in tiers (alphabetically). To me there is no 1 GOAT, but 4 GOATs. Then there is the next tier etc.
Tier 1 - Jordan, Kareem, LeBron, Wilt
Tier 2 - Hakeem, Magic, Robertson, Russell
Tier 3 - Bird, Duncan, Shaq, West
Tier 4 - Curry, Elgin, K. Malone, Stockton
Tier 5 - Durant, Erving, Kobe, Moses
But I think I am prone to recency bias which is why I am interested to know your takes about premodern players. Maybe I am overlooking some older players?
For example a take of mine would be which I use to rank them:
- Bill Russell was like Dwight Howard, but better.
- Wilt was like Karl Malone, but better.
I may be wrong of course but this is how I imagine them in my head (based also on the footages, similar stats, similar strengths, etc.).
Can you find similar players to these premodern players below, so I have a better understanding of them? Feel free to also include other players I didn't mention.
For better reading purposes, you can replace "X was like Y, but better" with a " > ".
So instead of "Bill Russell was like Dwight Howard, but better." you can use instead "Bill Russell > Dwight Howard"
Your takes:
- Alex English:
- Bill Russell:
- Bob Cousy:
- Bob Lanier:
- Bob McAdoo:
- Bob Pettit:
- Elgin Baylor:
- Elvin Hayes:
- George Mikan:
- Jerry West:
- John Havlicek:
- Julius Erving:
- Nate Thurmond:
- Oscar Robertson:
- Pete Maravich:
- Rick Barry:
- Sam Jones:
- Spencer Haywood:
- Tom Heinsohn:
- Walt Frazier:
- Wes Unseld:
- Willis Reed:
- Wilt Chamberlain:
Thanks.
). KD is rarely if ever asked to play the point and MJ was a combo guard that played the SG far more often than the PG (kinda the opposite of how combo guard West was used). The other point of similarity is the pull-up jumper. When Curry hit his stride, fans noticed that he had the quickest pull-up jumper since.....Jerry West! Curry and West actually discussed that point during West's time as an executive with the Warriors.