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zimpy27 wrote:1. LeBron 41
2. Fisher 40
3. Horry 39
4. KAJ 37
5. Duncan 35
6. Kobe 33
7. Pippen 33
8. Magic 32
9. Shaq 32
10. Jordan 30

There’s only 2 players where we can say on this list where they were the top guy . MJ , Lebron .

Any list with Fisher and Horry in the top3 is obviously useless for GOAT determination.

But it's still a nice feather in the cap for him

Does Russell's far superior playoff series win % give him the best GOAT argument? It's hard to argue for anyone else when you are using winning in the playoffs as your primary argument.

The argument for LeBron has to do with skillset, competition, stats, and yes, longevity which goes to playoff wins. If you reduce it this way, it pretty much disappears.

And, if you by the top guy you mean the best player on his team for the majority of those wins, roughly 7 of the 10 probably qualify. If you don't, you are probably just making a subjective argument since you are disqualifying Kareem among others.

As with a lot of the longevity based stuff it simply doesn't matter to a lot of people(whether its because they objectively don't value it or because it gives LeBron an obvious advantage over MJ). For others it holds significance. By itself its not a strong goat argument but it means more when paired with things like the all time scoring marks and stuff like that. I think the unmentioned aspect to him doing what he is doing at 38 is it highlights parts of his game that were underappreciated by many in his 27-33 years. Because those are the parts of his game he is using now to still win playoff series.

No, as such result is a team indicator more-so. The means to the end in order to accrue such success is what bolsters his GOAT argument relative to the pack.

So first: "best GOAT argument"? I'm not going to say that.

But what I will say is that this is a stat I track. I think there's something very real about player series wins.

Obvious caveats:

1. No one number stat covers enough that I would use it to define my rankings, and this is more simplistic than most.
2. To some degree it's a longevity thing rather than a prime thing.
2. Obviously, a role player who plays less isn't accomplishing as much as a superstar playing big minutes.
4. Players didn't use to play as many series so this obviously can't be used against the Bill Russells of the world.

But yeah, this is a major feather in LeBron's cap I'd say, and I think you really see it when you see what I track:

List of guys with 30 or more winning series as a Top 5 minutes guy on his team:

1. LeBron James 41
2. Tim Duncan 34
3. Scottie Pippen 33
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 32
(tie) Magic Johnson 32
6. Shaquille O'Neal 31
7.Kobe Bryant 30
(tie) Michael Jordan 30

Note that when you do this, Fisher & Horry drop off - they stand at 26 & 22 respectively - and you're left with the stars of the most successful, sustained cores since they started playing 4 rounds of playoffs.

Note also that Kareem played for 5 years before this era, and so if you wanted to add 5 more series wins to his total to make it more apples-to-apples, that would be pretty reasonable. Still only gets him to 37.

So clearly, of any of these guys, LeBron stands out by a significant margin.

Incidentally, if we treated Russell's career as if there were 4 rounds each time, you'd get:

11 titles ~ 44 series wins
1 finalist ~ 3 series wins
1 ECF ~ 2 wins

Add that up ~ 49 series wins

So if LeBron can break 50, he'd have the edge even adjusting for these things.

I think being in 10 NBA finals, possibly soon 11 does a better job illustrating how many playoff runs Lebron has had.

Dr Positivity wrote:I think being in 10 NBA finals, possibly soon 11 does a better job illustrating how many playoff runs Lebron has had.

Man, has it really been that many? 11 sounds so freaky. There are all of famers who are lucky to have played that many seasons.

The strength of the East hurts it

Doctor MJ wrote:So first: "best GOAT argument"? I'm not going to say that.

But what I will say is that this is a stat I track. I think there's something very real about player series wins.

Obvious caveats:

1. No one number stat covers enough that I would use it to define my rankings, and this is more simplistic than most.
2. To some degree it's a longevity thing rather than a prime thing.
2. Obviously, a role player who plays less isn't accomplishing as much as a superstar playing big minutes.
4. Players didn't use to play as many series so this obviously can't be used against the Bill Russells of the world.

But yeah, this is a major feather in LeBron's cap I'd say, and I think you really see it when you see what I track:

List of guys with 30 or more winning series as a Top 5 minutes guy on his team:

1. LeBron James 41
2. Tim Duncan 34
3. Scottie Pippen 33
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 32
(tie) Magic Johnson 32
6. Shaquille O'Neal 31
7.Kobe Bryant 30
(tie) Michael Jordan 30

Note that when you do this, Fisher & Horry drop off - they stand at 26 & 22 respectively - and you're left with the stars of the most successful, sustained cores since they started playing 4 rounds of playoffs.

Note also that Kareem played for 5 years before this era, and so if you wanted to add 5 more series wins to his total to make it more apples-to-apples, that would be pretty reasonable. Still only gets him to 37.

So clearly, of any of these guys, LeBron stands out by a significant margin.

Incidentally, if we treated Russell's career as if there were 4 rounds each time, you'd get:

11 titles ~ 44 series wins
1 finalist ~ 3 series wins
1 ECF ~ 2 wins

Add that up ~ 49 series wins

So if LeBron can break 50, he'd have the edge even adjusting for these things.

Now look at series losses and the difference between LeBron and Russell in series becomes clear . . . as does LeBron's longevity edge (partially because Russell was not allowed to join the NBA until 4 years after HS where LeBron came out immediately, partially because LeBron has done an extraordinary job of staying in shape and staying healthy).

No not anymore than him having a losing finals record is a good argument against him being the GOAT.

Matt15 wrote:No not anymore than him having a losing finals record is a good argument against him being the GOAT.

Is it though?

His best GOAT argument is combination of peak/prime with insane longevity.

Not a particularly strong argument, the Eastern Conference for most of the 00s/10s was subpar in team quality. Most of the teams Lebron's Cavs beat would not have made the playoffs if they were in the Western Conference.

2006 Wizards: 12th in SRS

2007 Wizards: 15th in SRS

2007 Nets: 16th in SRS

2008 Wizards: 17th in SRS

2009 Pistons: 17th in SRS

2010 Bulls: 18th in SRS

Lebron's accumulative playoff series wins are more a result of being in a weak conference; the same thing is true for Magic Johnson.

It’s not just this one single stat but his entire playoff body of work is getting more and more hard to comprehend.

Shaq played in 6 Finals, 9 CF, 17 playoffs… 62 playoff games behind LeBron
Kobe played in 7 Finals, 8 WCF, 15 playoffs (5 series as a teenager)… 58 playoff games behind LeBron
Curry’s played in 6 Finals, 6 WCF, 9 playoffs… 131 playoff games behind LeBron
Giannis has played in 1 Final, 2 ECF, 8 playoffs… 199 playoff games behind LeBron

He’s going to be 200 over Giannis. Imagine how amazing a young superstar will need to be to play in THIS many playoff games. It might take a very long time because unless we go to best of 9s, LeBron’s games played will be hard to top or even approach.

He looks even more ridiculous by playoff minutes played. And the sheer volume of his playoff stats (1st in points by a mile, 2nd in assists, 4th in rebounds, 1st in steals, 11th in blocks) will be something impossible to ignore in any debate in the future.

He’s still going at it. Still taking down a healthy Curry led team as the oldest real player in the league. I expect someone to come along in the future who could have a peak that surpasses LeBron or MJ or anyone else ever, but I really doubt “that” guy could also match LeBron’s career playoff numbers.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:The strength of the East hurts it

We can try to adjust for that, and it's not an unreasonable ask. Let's see:

2006 - got to 2nd round, likely 2nd round out in the West. Unchanged.
2007 - got to Finals, likely 2nd round out in the West. Drop by 2 series wins.
2008 - got to 2nd round, pushed champs to the brink. Unchanged.
2009 - Got to CF, likely CF out in the West. Unchanged.
2010 - Got to 2nd round, likely gets at least that far in West. Unchanged.
2011 - Got to Finals, likely 2nd best team in league. Unchanged.
2012 - Won title. Irrelevant.
2013 - Won title. Irrelevant.
2014 - Got to Finals, likely 2nd round out in the West. Drop by 2 series wins.
2015 - Got to Finals, champs toughest out. Unchanged.
2016 - Won title. Irrelevant.
2017 - Got to Finals, champs toughest out. Unchanged.
2018 - Got to Finals, likely 2nd round out in the West. Drop by 2 series wins.

So I could see an argument of thinking of LeBron as winning the equivalent for as low as 35 when "normalized" by conference.

Doctor MJ wrote:

An Unbiased Fan wrote:The strength of the East hurts it

We can try to adjust for that, and it's not an unreasonable ask. Let's see:

2006 - got to 2nd round, likely 2nd round out in the West. Unchanged.
2007 - got to Finals, likely 2nd round out in the West. Drop by 2 series wins.
2008 - got to 2nd round, pushed champs to the brink. Unchanged.
2009 - Got to CF, likely CF out in the West. Unchanged.
2010 - Got to 2nd round, likely gets at least that far in West. Unchanged.
2011 - Got to Finals, likely 2nd best team in league. Unchanged.
2012 - Won title. Irrelevant.
2013 - Won title. Irrelevant.
2014 - Got to Finals, likely 2nd round out in the West. Drop by 2 series wins.
2015 - Got to Finals, champs toughest out. Unchanged.
2016 - Won title. Irrelevant.
2017 - Got to Finals, champs toughest out. Unchanged.
2018 - Got to Finals, likely 2nd round out in the West. Drop by 2 series wins.

So I could see an argument of thinking of LeBron as winning the equivalent for as low as 35 when "normalized" by conference.

You didn't adjust though

2006 - Cavs are a 2.17 SRS, out West they're a #8 seed most likely and bounced by the Spurs. At best the get to the #7 seed, but LA had that anda higher SRS. Cavs still get bounced in 1st round
2007 - Would be around a #5/#6 seed and bounced in 1st round
2008 - Cavs had a negative SRS, and well behind the #8 seed out West. They miss the playoffs
2009 - Make the WCF, likely love to Lakers
2010 - Make the 2nd round, assuming Lebron's elbow thing happens they miss out on a WCF rematch
2011 - Lose in WCF to Mavs
2012 - Title
2013 - Title
2014 - Makes the 2nd round, unless they paly teh Clips who always choke, then they made the WCF
2015 - Might make WCF
2016 - Title
2017 - 2nd round, GS and SA both better
2018 - 0.59 SRS team, maybe the squeak into the playoffs, but 1st round bounce

An Unbiased Fan wrote:The strength of the East hurts it

You know if Western teams are better that would mean his teammates are better too.

It's like you're imagining him playing in the Western Conference with the Bobcats as his team. James is the best player, if he goes to a contender in the West then he would just make them better than the other contenders (see Durant joining the Warriors).

An Unbiased Fan wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

An Unbiased Fan wrote:The strength of the East hurts it

We can try to adjust for that, and it's not an unreasonable ask. Let's see:

2006 - got to 2nd round, likely 2nd round out in the West. Unchanged.
2007 - got to Finals, likely 2nd round out in the West. Drop by 2 series wins.
2008 - got to 2nd round, pushed champs to the brink. Unchanged.
2009 - Got to CF, likely CF out in the West. Unchanged.
2010 - Got to 2nd round, likely gets at least that far in West. Unchanged.
2011 - Got to Finals, likely 2nd best team in league. Unchanged.
2012 - Won title. Irrelevant.
2013 - Won title. Irrelevant.
2014 - Got to Finals, likely 2nd round out in the West. Drop by 2 series wins.
2015 - Got to Finals, champs toughest out. Unchanged.
2016 - Won title. Irrelevant.
2017 - Got to Finals, champs toughest out. Unchanged.
2018 - Got to Finals, likely 2nd round out in the West. Drop by 2 series wins.

So I could see an argument of thinking of LeBron as winning the equivalent for as low as 35 when "normalized" by conference.

You didn't adjust though

2006 - Cavs are a 2.17 SRS, out West they're a #8 seed most likely and bounced by the Spurs. At best the get to the #7 seed, but LA had that anda higher SRS. Cavs still get bounced in 1st round
2007 - Would be around a #5/#6 seed and bounced in 1st round
2008 - Cavs had a negative SRS, and well behind the #8 seed out West. They miss the playoffs
2009 - Make the WCF, likely love to Lakers
2010 - Make the 2nd round, assuming Lebron's elbow thing happens they miss out on a WCF rematch
2011 - Lose in WCF to Mavs
2012 - Title
2013 - Title
2014 - Makes the 2nd round, unless they paly teh Clips who always choke, then they made the WCF
2015 - Might make WCF
2016 - Title
2017 - 2nd round, GS and SA both better
2018 - 0.59 SRS team, maybe the squeak into the playoffs, but 1st round bounce

I mean, none of this actually happened so obviously you can disagree with my quick assessment.

What's your tally?

Doctor MJ wrote:
I mean, none of this actually happened so obviously you can disagree with my quick assessment.

What's your tally?

Mine is 41 and counting.