Was 2011 Wade better than LeBron that year? Where would he rank today?

[ardee]

26-7-5 on 58% TS in the regular season, very close to LeBron's 27-8-7 on 59% TS with arguably equal or better defense.

Then in the Playoffs Wade shone brightest against the two toughest matchups, Boston and Dallas in the Finals. His Boston series in particular was ridiculous, 30-7-5 on 62% TS against a historic Playoff defense.

So was he better than his own teammate that year? And would he be the best player today?

[TheGOATRises007]

The Bulls were a tougher match-up than the Celtics unless you're going with the narrative argument that led to the formation of the Heatles.

And Wade was horrific vs the Bulls who had the better defense that year.

The Heat's RS ORTG was 111.7 - It was 103.2 vs the Bulls, but 109.1 vs the Celtics. The Celtics didn't really slow down the Heat offense that much. And the Heat's defense curb-stomped the Bulls' offense.

Spo's blitzing on Rose pretty much shut down the offense, since Rose was still green and the Bulls had no secondary ball-handler. And I'd credit LeBron more defensively than Wade in that regard + he had a good series offensively too.

As for the question, I think LeBron was a teeny bit better and I don't think neither would be better than Jokic right now.

[TheGOATRises007]

I actually think the Bulls in that series defended Wade better than anyone did in Wade's prime. He had more turnovers than assists for the entire series. That's wild when you think about it. 20 turnovers to 11 assists on 50% TS and a ORTG of 90.

[rand]

Regular season LeBron had a small edge basically across the board. +1.2 PPG on .013 TS%, 7.0 APG to 4.6 with a vastly better AST/TO ratio, slightly better On/Off (+9.0 to +7.8). Significant BPM edge (8.1 to 6.6).

In the playoffs it was a series-by-series affair. LeBron was clearly better in the Philly and Chicago series, Wade was clearly better against Boston and Dallas.

Overall I think LeBron was a marginally better player at this point but his choke job in the Finals made it look like Wade has a case.

[tone wone]

I actually think the Bulls in that series defended Wade better than anyone did in Wade's prime. He had more turnovers than assists for the entire series. That's wild when you think about it. 20 turnovers to 11 assists on 50% TS and a ORTG of 90.

There may not have been a closer 5 game series than 2011 ECFs.

Chicago's defense had Miami completely figured by game 4. It took Mike Miller pulling a Lonnie Walker IV for Miami to eek out an overtime win in game 4. Then they stole game 5 like thieves in the night. Seriously, Miami had no business winning that game. Bosh saved Wade's ass in that series.

To answer the question of thread; Lebron was better through the Conference Finals. They were both MVP level players but Lebron was better. It took the stage of the Finals and a complete lack understanding of what was happening in that series for this to even be a question.

[Texas Chuck]

Don't use the Finals numbers without understanding that Dallas focused their entire defense on Lebron and let Wade go believing he wasn't good enough to beat them, but that Lebron was. And they were proven right in that calculation.

But huge difference being defended by JET or Barea or the weakest of Kidd/Marion/DeShawn at all times while Lebron was dealing with fresh good wing defenders and two 7 footers zoning him behind that.

Context always matters and ignoring it serves nobody.

[No-more-rings]

Don't use the Finals numbers without understanding that Dallas focused their entire defense on Lebron and let Wade go believing he wasn't good enough to beat them, but that Lebron was.

This has been debunked many times over with actual footage. You repeating it 1000 times won’t make it fact. It just makes you a serial liar.

[Texas Chuck]

Don't use the Finals numbers without understanding that Dallas focused their entire defense on Lebron and let Wade go believing he wasn't good enough to beat them, but that Lebron was.

This has been debunked many times over with actual footage. You repeating it 1000 times won’t make it fact. It just makes you a serial liar.

Careful about calling people liars who have followed a series as closely as that one. Lebron absolutely got the tougher defender. Dallas absolutely zoned up Lebron.

This isn't anti-Wade slander so get over yourself. This is simply the defensive strategy employed by the Mavs that is extremely well-documented even if you can find possessions where Barea got switched on to Lebron or Kidd was on Wade.

[Heej]

Don't use the Finals numbers without understanding that Dallas focused their entire defense on Lebron and let Wade go believing he wasn't good enough to beat them, but that Lebron was. And they were proven right in that calculation.

But huge difference being defended by JET or Barea or the weakest of Kidd/Marion/DeShawn at all times while Lebron was dealing with fresh good wing defenders and two 7 footers zoning him behind that.

Context always matters and ignoring it serves nobody.

I'm not surprised that it's only Mavs fans who actually remember what the scheme and gameplan was that series. LeBron choked, but Spo got severely outcoached playing 4 non shooters vs a zone defense and Wade was the beneficiary of all the loading up vs Bron and letting him go 1v1

[No-more-rings]

Don't use the Finals numbers without understanding that Dallas focused their entire defense on Lebron and let Wade go believing he wasn't good enough to beat them, but that Lebron was.

This has been debunked many times over with actual footage. You repeating it 1000 times won’t make it fact. It just makes you a serial liar.

Careful about calling people liars who have followed a series as closely as that one. Lebron absolutely got the tougher defender. Dallas absolutely zoned up Lebron.

This isn't anti-Wade slander so get over yourself. This is simply the defensive strategy employed by the Mavs that is extremely well-documented even if you can find possessions where Barea got switched on to Lebron or Kidd was on Wade.

Or you could word things without mass hyperbole. You just pivoted from “entire defense on Lebron” to “Lebron got the tougher defender”. You’re purposely being inflammatory with debunked lies. They did not let Wade get anything he wanted. That’s easily disproven by actually watching tape, he was guarded like any other superstar was. Lebron got more attention, but that doesn’t change the fact that Wade dealt with the zone way better than he did and it showed.

[Texas Chuck]

glad you backtracked and acknowledged I was correct. Guessing the Heat fan telling you I had it right forced your hand, but you don't have it in you to be gracious and so continue with the personal stuff. Oh well. At least we can move on now having put the Finals numbers into context.

Wade is awesome. Not ever denying that. And since that's all that matters to you here, we can move forward.

[OhayoKD]

glad you backtracked and acknowledged I was correct. Guessing the Heat fan telling you I had it right forced your hand, but you don't have it in you to be gracious and so continue with the personal stuff. Oh well. At least we can move on now having put the Finals numbers into context.

Wade is awesome. Not ever denying that. And since that's all that matters to you here, we can move forward.

He didn't backtrack. Nor did he acknowledge you were correct. You claimed "the entire defenses loaded up on James" and then pivoted to "lebron faced tougher defense". If someone backtracked, it was you.

[Texas Chuck]

glad you backtracked and acknowledged I was correct. Guessing the Heat fan telling you I had it right forced your hand, but you don't have it in you to be gracious and so continue with the personal stuff. Oh well. At least we can move on now having put the Finals numbers into context.

Wade is awesome. Not ever denying that. And since that's all that matters to you here, we can move forward.

He didn't backtrack. Nor did he acknowledge you were correct. You claimed "the entire defenses loaded up on James" and then pivoted to "lebron faced tougher defense". If someone backtracked, it was you.

LOL. You guys win. This is so pedantic and stupid now.

The focus of the Mavs defense was Lebron James, not Dwayne Wade. This the point we all know I was making. And its factually accurate. The rest of this is childish.

[Eagle4]

Don't use the Finals numbers without understanding that Dallas focused their entire defense on Lebron and let Wade go believing he wasn't good enough to beat them, but that Lebron was.

This has been debunked many times over with actual footage. You repeating it 1000 times won’t make it fact. It just makes you a serial liar.

Careful about calling people liars who have followed a series as closely as that one. Lebron absolutely got the tougher defender. Dallas absolutely zoned up Lebron.

This isn't anti-Wade slander so get over yourself. This is simply the defensive strategy employed by the Mavs that is extremely well-documented even if you can find possessions where Barea got switched on to Lebron or Kidd was on Wade.

Lol false. Wade was being mainly guarded by Stevenson, Matrix,and some Kidd but saw practically ever perimeter defender and torched them all. He saw multiple double and triple teams throughout the series literally any time he had the ball in the post (especially when Kidd was on him), please stop trying re-writing history. I've watched that series multiple times, Wade was just dissecting Mavs zone defense like a surgeon, zigzaging through the lane, finishing and posterizing Chandler and whoever. Lebron choked and Wade greatly outperformed him and that's fine, no need for revisionist history.

[ccameron]

Don't use the Finals numbers without understanding that Dallas focused their entire defense on Lebron and let Wade go believing he wasn't good enough to beat them, but that Lebron was. And they were proven right in that calculation.

But huge difference being defended by JET or Barea or the weakest of Kidd/Marion/DeShawn at all times while Lebron was dealing with fresh good wing defenders and two 7 footers zoning him behind that.

Context always matters and ignoring it serves nobody.

I think this is always overstated. In 2012 Boston/Heat ECF Wade received a lot of double-teams so Lebron was free to have a historic playoff series -- nobody ever remembers that, but in the 2011 Finals series, even though Lebron was not usually double teamed, everyone always brings this up in defense of Lebron. Dallas often used a zone so it would have been hard for ANY player trying to drive, which Wade was doing all series. To the extent they could match anybody up with Lebron, yes their strategy was often to throw their best defender at him (although they had Jason Terry famously guarding him as well), but "entire defense," and "let Wade go" aren't true.

The zone is often collapsing on Wade when he drives, nothing about these highlights looks like they are letting Wade go:

Watch on YouTube

[Texas Chuck]

Don't use the Finals numbers without understanding that Dallas focused their entire defense on Lebron and let Wade go believing he wasn't good enough to beat them, but that Lebron was. And they were proven right in that calculation.

But huge difference being defended by JET or Barea or the weakest of Kidd/Marion/DeShawn at all times while Lebron was dealing with fresh good wing defenders and two 7 footers zoning him behind that.

Context always matters and ignoring it serves nobody.

I think this is always overstated. In 2012 Boston/Heat ECF Wade received a lot of double-teams so Lebron was free to have a historic playoff series -- nobody ever remembers that, but in the 2011 Finals series, even though Lebron was not usually double teamed, everyone always brings this up in defense of Lebron.

I am not offering up a defense of Lebron though. Without question Wade was far more effective than Lebron in that series. I'm just trying to add some context. And Carlisle and Casey have talked at length about their gameplan being 100% devoted to stopping Lebron and if Wade and Bosh could beat them then so be it, but they were going to do everything in their power to make life as hard on Lebron as they can.

And they faced Lebron 8x that season and did as good a job as any team ever did to a prime version of Lebron. And so just posting the stats that show Wade's numbers looking great and Lebron's looking terrible without at least acknowledging the game plan was all about Lebron serves nobody.

I'm all about giving credit where it is due. I have 80,000 posts on this site and you can't find a single one where I haven't given Wade full credit for the 06 Finals. And you will find literally hundreds of posts maybe thousands of posts pushing back against the tired ref narrative of that series. Wade won that series for his team full stop. Refs were not the reason the Mavs got backdoor swept, Wade was.

This isn't pro-LEbron or anti-Wade despite everyone always jumping to that conclusion. It was literally just important info I have as someone intimately familiar with the 2011 Mavs more than anyone else on the PC board. Not because nobody else knows that series or I'm smarter, but because I'm a homer and I've watched all 6 games 20x at least and I've consumed every bit of writing/reporting on that MAvs team. And Casey had a fantastic plan and the players executed it.

But yes, Lebron was the focus of the Mavs, not Wade. And its okay to say that without Wade fans needing to feel slighted. I promise.

[ccameron]

I am not offering up a defense of Lebron though. Without question Wade was far more effective than Lebron in that series. I'm just trying to add some context. And Carlisle and Casey have talked at length about their gameplan being 100% devoted to stopping Lebron and if Wade and Bosh could beat them then so be it, but they were going to do everything in their power to make life as hard on Lebron as they can.

And they faced Lebron 8x that season and did as good a job as any team ever did to a prime version of Lebron. And so just posting the stats that show Wade's numbers looking great and Lebron's looking terrible without at least acknowledging the game plan was all about Lebron serves nobody.

I'm all about giving credit where it is due. I have 80,000 posts on this site and you can't find a single one where I haven't given Wade full credit for the 06 Finals. And you will find literally hundreds of posts maybe thousands of posts pushing back against the tired ref narrative of that series. Wade won that series for his team full stop. Refs were not the reason the Mavs got backdoor swept, Wade was.

This isn't pro-LEbron or anti-Wade despite everyone always jumping to that conclusion. It was literally just important info I have as someone intimately familiar with the 2011 Mavs more than anyone else on the PC board. Not because nobody else knows that series or I'm smarter, but because I'm a homer and I've watched all 6 games 20x at least and I've consumed every bit of writing/reporting on that MAvs team. And Casey had a fantastic plan and the players executed it.

But yes, Lebron was the focus of the Mavs, not Wade. And its okay to say that without Wade fans needing to feel slighted. I promise.

But I didn't post Wade's stats without context, and I also didn't deny part of the Mav's gameplan was to focus on Lebron. I said the case that the Mavs only focused on Lebron and let Wade go was overstated. Sometimes a team will double or triple team a player, and if they do that I would say your statements aren't overstated (well it's still hyperbole but justified). But the Mavs didn't do that, they played a lot of zone, the extent you can just focus on one player is a little more limited, so while I'm not denying that's part of their gameplan, it was kind of subtle. As in the highlights I posted, Wade's collapsing the defense on him a lot, and he's seeing all the same defenders Lebron is.

And I know you give Wade credit in '06 which so I don't think you are trying to diss Wade, that's not where I'm coming from. I also give Dirk and the Mavs credit, the Mavs won because Dirk was the best player in the finals. But while I also want to give the Mav's defense credit, I also don't think they can take the full credit for Lebron's meltdown, even if they want to. Sure it was part of their strategy, they can take some credit for that, but they weren't mogging Lebron and leaving Wade and Bosh alone. I don't think even they expected him to fold the way he did.

[Texas Chuck]

But while I also want to give the Mav's defense credit, I also don't think they can take the full credit for Lebron's meltdown, even if they want to. Sure it was part of their strategy, they can take some credit for that, but they weren't mogging Lebron and leaving Wade and Bosh alone. I don't think even they expected him to fold the way he did.

We 100% agree here. Dallas had a smart plan and executed it as well as could have been expected, but Lebron is simply too great to shut down like happened. This was more about Lebron than Dallas. Again, full credit to Casey and the trio of wing defenders and Dallas' bigs providing support, but Lebron just broke. Of course its my opinion that no player in American team sports history ever felt the pressure Lebron felt that season to deliver a title. And I think it ultimately got to him. In part because Kidd was mentally tough as they come and Marion and DeShawn were delusional enough to think they could actually shut down Lebron and so the usual mental intimidation factor wasn't there. The Mavs never backed down one inch. Even JET and Barea battled him when they got switched on to him.

But we will definitely disagree about how much the focus was on Lebron vs Wade. Of course Dallas sometimes sent doubles to Wade--you can't just leave Terry on him on an island. Of course sometimes they were in a pure zone as opposed the hybrid box and one stuff they were also running on Lebron. But overall Casey and Carlisle have been explicit -- they were going to sell out defensively against Lebron.

Just as Avery foolishly sold out to defend Shaq even as it was clear to the rest of us that Damp/Diop were holding their own and that when Adrian Griffin is your best answer for Wade, you have no answer and maybe just maybe get the ball out of his hands.

Dallas fans would have never forgiven Carlisle and Casey if Wade had been able to lead Miami to victory in 2011 which he very well could have. They could have handled Lebron beating them, but Wade again? After what he did in 2006 and all the **** he talked about Dirk? We'd have never gotten over it.

[tone wone]

Love the the focus on the 2011 Finals.

If you keep talking about it you might trick people into thinking Wade was better that season.

[ccameron]

Dallas fans would have never forgiven Carlisle and Casey if Wade had been able to lead Miami to victory in 2011 which he very well could have. They could have handled Lebron beating them, but Wade again? After what he did in 2006 and all the **** he talked about Dirk? We'd have never gotten over it.

I'm not over it! It was the most frustrating series I ever saw to this day. It's all well and good for them to say they are focusing on Lebron, and to think Wade couldn't beat them (although as I said, think that is not really true and exaggerated in hindsight because of how poorly Lebron played), but if in a couple of those games rather than having an abysmal performance Lebron just had a below average one, the outcome would have been different and that strategy would have been terrible in hindsight. I don't know, the stars aligned so that the universe would be balanced or something.

On topic, I have the extremely hot take that Wade and Lebron were very close that year, Lebron being slightly better, but Wade was mentally more prepared for the playoffs. I think Wade would be a top 3 player in the league today.